7 ms·

I agree, I think the new UI looks great. People are taking the UI / ARM change as apple taking away more control, but macOS is THE development platform of the

I agree, I think the new UI looks great. People are taking the UI / ARM change as apple taking away more control, but macOS is THE development platform of the entire apple ecosystem. So yeah, the ecosystem may be tighter knitted, but they sure as hell will not lock down macOS like they do iOS, they have so many mac users who are developers and apple are absolutely aware of that. People complain about features in catalina and other recent versions of macOS 'locking things down' - it's incredibly easy to bypass the stuff that makes a difference using the terminal. In a world where every company in the world wants to track and harvest your data, we've somehow got to the point where people bash apple for actually taking privacy and security seriously.

henriquez 6y ago
Apple locks down MacOS more and more with each major release. Some of it seems well justified but the totality of it is concerning to me. Being able to defeat some of it in the console doesn’t change what is an increasingly abusive relationship. I feel like we’re rapidly approaching a point where Apple enforces the same strict control over MacOS that they do over the iOS App Store and they’re softening people up towards that in baby steps with each incremental restriction they implement. Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I personally decided to stop buying their computers because of it.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  I disagree, I don't think they're anywhere near locking down to the iOS level. Could you explain some of these incremental lock downs? I honestly can't think of any that are genuine restrictions, but that might just be because I don't encounter them with what I do.
  - lwhi 6y ago
    Every new release of OS X has been an increasing disappointment for years now. Security issues, bugs, incompatibilities. It's almost as if they've been actively devesting in OS X. At least we now understand why. Mac's are no longer machines fit for professional development. It's a damn shame, but it's true in my mind.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      They just switched Macs to an entirely new architecture. I think they probably put more effort into macOS than iOS this year.
      - lwhi 6y ago
        That's not my point. This new OS version is not OS X.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Neither was the last one!
        lwhi 6y ago
        The 10 in the version number is a clue[1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Catalina https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Catalina
    - lwhi 6y ago
      To the downvoters .. hope that koolaid tastes good!
      - viro 6y ago
        You got down voted because you didn't say anything. Go ahead read it again, I'll wait. Notice how the closest you got to making a point was Macs are not "fit for professional development"
        lwhi 6y ago
        I disagree and I think you're incorrect. For a long time, I and other people I know chose MBP for professional web-development / video editing / music production because they were provided with a slick GUI on top of a solid operating system. It's fairly apparent to most people who read tech news, that the quality of the operating system isn't what it was. For instance, think back to the 'no password necessary for root user' debacle a few years ago. I don't think it's beyond the realms of credulity to consider why this type of problem was allowed to occur in Apple's 'professional' line. If you're still with me, perhaps you'd also be able to follow my line of reasoning when I surmise that the reason for this degradation of support, may have been because they were planning on dropping their support for OS X .. with this convergence event being its replacement. In reality, it's your own sassy comment that's devoid of content. Hope you really did wait! :)
  - 72deluxe 6y ago
    How about the non-modifiable hidden system partition? Inability to create directories under / That alone has stopped me moving my Macs to the latest OS after testing.
    - thoughtsimple 6y ago
      Turn off System Integrity Protection. Not a good idea but it will let you make unnecessary changes to /.
      - filleduchaos 6y ago
        All they really did was make it harder to thoughtlessly do. If you can't cope with the procedure needed to make changes to the write-protected folders, maybe whatever it is you wanted to write there isn't actually that important.
        72deluxe 6y ago
        That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? Finder hides all of /etc and /bin and /usr for the "protection" of normal users, just like the default view for Windows Explorer under C:\Windows\System. But you can still change the contents on Windows, or see the directories in Terminal on macOS. Should they hide those directories when you use Terminal too? After all, /etc is important. Your reasoning would also stand up there - perhaps whatever files you were attempting to modify under /etc wasn't actually that important. When does the "you cannot easily modify files on your own machine" stop? Would you also accept the inability to change your wallpaper with such glee? Perhaps the wallpaper you wanted wasn't actually that important.
        Xylakant 6y ago
        > That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? There have been examples of (un)installer scripts removing substantial parts of your system, steam for example. Linux in this case https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671 https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671, but not generally unthinkable on MacOS. It's generally good if the system puts up barriers to prevent such occurrences. You're entirely welcome to disable these protections, but MacOS is designed to protect Joe User who may have substantially less knowledge and who has no general need to mess around in /etc
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  Cory Doctorow talked about these worries quite eloquently back in his 2011 keynote to the Chaos Computer Congress, titled "The Coming War on General Purpose Computation". https://boingboing.net/2011/12/27/the-coming-war-on-general-purp.html https://boingboing.net/2011/12/27/the-coming-war-on-general-...
  - snowwrestler 6y ago
    I mean, that was nearly a decade ago and we're still doing just fine for general purpose computation. At what point do we stop saying "he was so prescient, look we're almost there," and just admit things haven't turned out as badly as people feared? DRM has turned out be more of a nuisance than an apocalypse, and general purpose computing is at least as available today as it was in 2011. In some ways it is even easier; for example anyone with an email address can get access to a cloud-hosted computer for free.
    - maigret 6y ago
      Exact! Or build your own Kubernetes cluster at home on Raspberry Pi for less than the price of a phone or TV.
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      Depending on measures taken a small kitchen fire can be a minor annoyance or burn up the family home and the family dog with it. I don't think there is any doubt that there have been elements that had there been no negative reaction would have pushed for much more oem control of user machines nor is there any doubt we are in fact moving progressively towards more locked down machines. Finding parties that would benefit is a trivial exercise one has only to look towards app store revenue, Intels idea of selling "upgrades" to your cpu via software unlocks, or Verizons ability to rent you access to your gps for $10 a month. Others have been pouring water on a fire that would have already filled your kitchen with smoke by now otherwise and you have merely failed to attend to this fact.
- bzzzt 6y ago
  Since you're using the 'abusive relationship' analogy I'd like to point out there are more actors to this beside Apple and you. Most app developers are honest, but there still are lots of 'bad apples' trying to infect your system. Would you buy a house without any locks since it's convenient? As long as you have the key it's paranoid not to buy Apple because of some restrictions since any PC also has a lot of these (secure boot, DRM etc).
  - henriquez 6y ago
    The house without locks is a bad analogy. A better one would be everyone is forced to buy the exact same house because government regulators and commercial lobbyists had decided what's best for us and an entire generation of brainwashed sycophants kiss the ground at their feet with each new decree they enforce.
_jal 6y ago
> it's incredibly easy to bypass the stuff that makes a difference using the terminal Not my experience. It took a couple weeks of noodling to get parts of my environment moved over, and some of my automation I just moved to a linux box because I got sick of it. > we've somehow got to the point where people bash apple for actually taking privacy and security seriously Wow. On the planet I use a Mac on, the complaints are about a set of non-manageable, opaque and somewhat buggy security changes that arbitrarily changed semantics on big chunks of the filesystem and broke a bunch of things is hard to figure out ways. Add in that there is no sensible mechanism for cleaning up any of these magic permissions paths, and I don't even know what permissions are active on the machine I'm typing on. I've loved OS X for being a decent gui on a real Unix. It had a decent run, but my next laptop will be a Linux box.
- tolger 6y ago
  I'm in a similar situation. As a UNIX, command-line user I've noticed that every release they make things harder for us. Yeah, Homebrew is great, but Apple doesn't support it and they could break things anytime. Lately, I've been doing most of my dev work on a Windows 10 machine using WSL. It's come a long way and is very usable now.
  - Hackbraten 6y ago
    It’s unlikely that Apple break Homebrew. On the contrary, Apple is helping Homebrew tackle the architecture transition. Having said that: I agree, WSL is pretty amazing.
aardshark 6y ago
Ee
aardshark 6y ago
> it's incredibly easy to bypass the stuff that makes a difference using the terminal. Try running dtrace without having to configure a bunch of settings and restarting your Mac. Then you have to change the settings back and restart again to go back to the way it was. It's a pain in the hole, and for basically no reason.
- robterrell 6y ago
  Isn't Instruments based on dtrace?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    It is. dtrace outside of whatever Instruments needs to do its job is fairly crippled.
raxxorrax 6y ago
Easy to bypass was also an argument for locked down mobile OS. Software on these platforms is mostly useless aside from 2-3 social apps if you like that. I think locking down features is a mistake and does only draw in certain developers. The reason the pushback might not be as large is that competitors for desktop seem to be sleeping, or worse, try to do the same. I still don't believe Apple on the privacy front. Yes, they are better than competitors. Anyway, I would like freedom and privacy and don't see them as contradictory. And you won't get more privacy if a manufacturer locks down environments. We had OS without any privacy intrusion without any form of lock down. MS drops the ball constantly, agreed, but that isn't a metric anyone should look for.
- rimliu 6y ago
  People are drawing, creating music, making movies, editing photos on their mobile OSes. Saying that they are "mostly uses" does not make them so. Freedom and privacy are at odds. If I give any app the freedom to access my messages or call list, does it increase or decrease privacy?
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    > If I give any app the freedom to access my messages or call list, does it increase or decrease privacy? I have an app(lication) that has access to my messages. It doesn't do anything with them aside from showing them to me on request. It doesn't affect my privacy at all because doing so is far beyond its scope. If I had shitty apps, I would agree, but until now those seem mostly restricted to shitty app stores. But if they cannot be trusted, they cannot be trusted to see my messages at all. > People are drawing, creating music, making movies, editing photos on their mobile OSes True, they are not completely useless, just mostly. I can do that on other OS with far more freedom. Artists generally don't like restraints too much and I do actually paint digitally. Wouldn't know how to connect it to a mobile device, nevermind the atrocious software selection. The cameras on mobile devices are nice though. Don't think the common mobile OS makes handling image date easy at all. Even most normal users want images on their desktop as soon as possible.

henriquez 6y ago

Apple locks down MacOS more and more with each major release. Some of it seems well justified but the totality of it is concerning to me. Being able to defeat some of it in the console doesn’t change what is an increasingly abusive relationship. I feel like we’re rapidly approaching a point where Apple enforces the same strict control over MacOS that they do over the iOS App Store and they’re softening people up towards that in baby steps with each incremental restriction they implement. Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I personally decided to stop buying their computers because of it.

breakfastduck 6y ago
I disagree, I don't think they're anywhere near locking down to the iOS level. Could you explain some of these incremental lock downs? I honestly can't think of any that are genuine restrictions, but that might just be because I don't encounter them with what I do.
- lwhi 6y ago
  Every new release of OS X has been an increasing disappointment for years now. Security issues, bugs, incompatibilities. It's almost as if they've been actively devesting in OS X. At least we now understand why. Mac's are no longer machines fit for professional development. It's a damn shame, but it's true in my mind.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    They just switched Macs to an entirely new architecture. I think they probably put more effort into macOS than iOS this year.
    - lwhi 6y ago
      That's not my point. This new OS version is not OS X.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Neither was the last one!
        lwhi 6y ago
        The 10 in the version number is a clue[1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Catalina https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Catalina
  - lwhi 6y ago
    To the downvoters .. hope that koolaid tastes good!
    - viro 6y ago
      You got down voted because you didn't say anything. Go ahead read it again, I'll wait. Notice how the closest you got to making a point was Macs are not "fit for professional development"
      - lwhi 6y ago
        I disagree and I think you're incorrect. For a long time, I and other people I know chose MBP for professional web-development / video editing / music production because they were provided with a slick GUI on top of a solid operating system. It's fairly apparent to most people who read tech news, that the quality of the operating system isn't what it was. For instance, think back to the 'no password necessary for root user' debacle a few years ago. I don't think it's beyond the realms of credulity to consider why this type of problem was allowed to occur in Apple's 'professional' line. If you're still with me, perhaps you'd also be able to follow my line of reasoning when I surmise that the reason for this degradation of support, may have been because they were planning on dropping their support for OS X .. with this convergence event being its replacement. In reality, it's your own sassy comment that's devoid of content. Hope you really did wait! :)
- 72deluxe 6y ago
  How about the non-modifiable hidden system partition? Inability to create directories under / That alone has stopped me moving my Macs to the latest OS after testing.
  - thoughtsimple 6y ago
    Turn off System Integrity Protection. Not a good idea but it will let you make unnecessary changes to /.
    - filleduchaos 6y ago
      All they really did was make it harder to thoughtlessly do. If you can't cope with the procedure needed to make changes to the write-protected folders, maybe whatever it is you wanted to write there isn't actually that important.
      - 72deluxe 6y ago
        That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? Finder hides all of /etc and /bin and /usr for the "protection" of normal users, just like the default view for Windows Explorer under C:\Windows\System. But you can still change the contents on Windows, or see the directories in Terminal on macOS. Should they hide those directories when you use Terminal too? After all, /etc is important. Your reasoning would also stand up there - perhaps whatever files you were attempting to modify under /etc wasn't actually that important. When does the "you cannot easily modify files on your own machine" stop? Would you also accept the inability to change your wallpaper with such glee? Perhaps the wallpaper you wanted wasn't actually that important.
        Xylakant 6y ago
        > That doesn't make sense. What is in / that is dangerous? There have been examples of (un)installer scripts removing substantial parts of your system, steam for example. Linux in this case https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671 https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671, but not generally unthinkable on MacOS. It's generally good if the system puts up barriers to prevent such occurrences. You're entirely welcome to disable these protections, but MacOS is designed to protect Joe User who may have substantially less knowledge and who has no general need to mess around in /etc
dane-pgp 6y ago
Cory Doctorow talked about these worries quite eloquently back in his 2011 keynote to the Chaos Computer Congress, titled "The Coming War on General Purpose Computation". https://boingboing.net/2011/12/27/the-coming-war-on-general-purp.html https://boingboing.net/2011/12/27/the-coming-war-on-general-...
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  I mean, that was nearly a decade ago and we're still doing just fine for general purpose computation. At what point do we stop saying "he was so prescient, look we're almost there," and just admit things haven't turned out as badly as people feared? DRM has turned out be more of a nuisance than an apocalypse, and general purpose computing is at least as available today as it was in 2011. In some ways it is even easier; for example anyone with an email address can get access to a cloud-hosted computer for free.
  - maigret 6y ago
    Exact! Or build your own Kubernetes cluster at home on Raspberry Pi for less than the price of a phone or TV.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    Depending on measures taken a small kitchen fire can be a minor annoyance or burn up the family home and the family dog with it. I don't think there is any doubt that there have been elements that had there been no negative reaction would have pushed for much more oem control of user machines nor is there any doubt we are in fact moving progressively towards more locked down machines. Finding parties that would benefit is a trivial exercise one has only to look towards app store revenue, Intels idea of selling "upgrades" to your cpu via software unlocks, or Verizons ability to rent you access to your gps for $10 a month. Others have been pouring water on a fire that would have already filled your kitchen with smoke by now otherwise and you have merely failed to attend to this fact.
bzzzt 6y ago
Since you're using the 'abusive relationship' analogy I'd like to point out there are more actors to this beside Apple and you. Most app developers are honest, but there still are lots of 'bad apples' trying to infect your system. Would you buy a house without any locks since it's convenient? As long as you have the key it's paranoid not to buy Apple because of some restrictions since any PC also has a lot of these (secure boot, DRM etc).
- henriquez 6y ago
  The house without locks is a bad analogy. A better one would be everyone is forced to buy the exact same house because government regulators and commercial lobbyists had decided what's best for us and an entire generation of brainwashed sycophants kiss the ground at their feet with each new decree they enforce.

_jal 6y ago

> it's incredibly easy to bypass the stuff that makes a difference using the terminal Not my experience. It took a couple weeks of noodling to get parts of my environment moved over, and some of my automation I just moved to a linux box because I got sick of it. > we've somehow got to the point where people bash apple for actually taking privacy and security seriously Wow. On the planet I use a Mac on, the complaints are about a set of non-manageable, opaque and somewhat buggy security changes that arbitrarily changed semantics on big chunks of the filesystem and broke a bunch of things is hard to figure out ways. Add in that there is no sensible mechanism for cleaning up any of these magic permissions paths, and I don't even know what permissions are active on the machine I'm typing on. I've loved OS X for being a decent gui on a real Unix. It had a decent run, but my next laptop will be a Linux box.

tolger 6y ago
I'm in a similar situation. As a UNIX, command-line user I've noticed that every release they make things harder for us. Yeah, Homebrew is great, but Apple doesn't support it and they could break things anytime. Lately, I've been doing most of my dev work on a Windows 10 machine using WSL. It's come a long way and is very usable now.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  It’s unlikely that Apple break Homebrew. On the contrary, Apple is helping Homebrew tackle the architecture transition. Having said that: I agree, WSL is pretty amazing.

aardshark 6y ago

> it's incredibly easy to bypass the stuff that makes a difference using the terminal. Try running dtrace without having to configure a bunch of settings and restarting your Mac. Then you have to change the settings back and restart again to go back to the way it was. It's a pain in the hole, and for basically no reason.

robterrell 6y ago
Isn't Instruments based on dtrace?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  It is. dtrace outside of whatever Instruments needs to do its job is fairly crippled.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Easy to bypass was also an argument for locked down mobile OS. Software on these platforms is mostly useless aside from 2-3 social apps if you like that. I think locking down features is a mistake and does only draw in certain developers. The reason the pushback might not be as large is that competitors for desktop seem to be sleeping, or worse, try to do the same. I still don't believe Apple on the privacy front. Yes, they are better than competitors. Anyway, I would like freedom and privacy and don't see them as contradictory. And you won't get more privacy if a manufacturer locks down environments. We had OS without any privacy intrusion without any form of lock down. MS drops the ball constantly, agreed, but that isn't a metric anyone should look for.

rimliu 6y ago
People are drawing, creating music, making movies, editing photos on their mobile OSes. Saying that they are "mostly uses" does not make them so. Freedom and privacy are at odds. If I give any app the freedom to access my messages or call list, does it increase or decrease privacy?
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  > If I give any app the freedom to access my messages or call list, does it increase or decrease privacy? I have an app(lication) that has access to my messages. It doesn't do anything with them aside from showing them to me on request. It doesn't affect my privacy at all because doing so is far beyond its scope. If I had shitty apps, I would agree, but until now those seem mostly restricted to shitty app stores. But if they cannot be trusted, they cannot be trusted to see my messages at all. > People are drawing, creating music, making movies, editing photos on their mobile OSes True, they are not completely useless, just mostly. I can do that on other OS with far more freedom. Artists generally don't like restraints too much and I do actually paint digitally. Wouldn't know how to connect it to a mobile device, nevermind the atrocious software selection. The cameras on mobile devices are nice though. Don't think the common mobile OS makes handling image date easy at all. Even most normal users want images on their desktop as soon as possible.