5 ms·

Many times in the article she perceive male founders as stoic machines that regardless of health or mental state would go to work and operate as if nothing is w

by belorn 6y ago

Many times in the article she perceive male founders as stoic machines that regardless of health or mental state would go to work and operate as if nothing is wrong, and then goes to copy that. That is a stereotype that is hurting both men and women, and removing that would resolve a lot of the hardship.

mtgp1000 6y ago
So if I want to push myself in pursuit of my dreams, I need to sandbag because working hard sets bad precedent for others? Edit: why is this flagged? Is it not a valid point? If you claim that there is a problem in tech because men are stoic and work long hours even during times of personal hardship, you're effectively shaming these men for working too hard. This is something that needs to be discussed before you start setting policy.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Treat it as a marathon, not a sprint. Making time for your mental health is not a cultural priority, and that results in a high rate of burnout across the industry. I think I'd have made it a lot further in my career, and faster, if I'd avoided that in my 20s.
  - silvat 6y ago
    I think pursuing an idea or project with wreckless abandon can be a beautiful thing. The risk of getting injured in the attempt to push limits is the cost of doing business.
    - notkaiho 6y ago
      Can be; more often it's destructive, and to what end?
    - klyrs 6y ago
      You mean reckless. Wrecklessness is the opposite optimization ;)
  - econcon 6y ago
    They can do that but then there are people like me, who need no weekend off, no vacations, can work more than 60 hours a week - I am ready to take all leadership It has infact opposite effect on me, the more I work the more I am escaped from normal day to life problems and emotional setbacks (caused mostly by other people and being aware myself, I can't do anything but just to blame myself) I choose work as my escapism.
hinkley 6y ago
Postmortems often happen because someone ignored a pain point prior to the failure, rather than taking stock and doing some preventative work. The general pattern of pretending everything is ok is one of my least favorite things about tech culture. I was going to say 'tech people' but it's clear that there are people who don't like this pattern either. They tend to self-identify (sometimes privately) when I buck the trend and do something sane instead.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  This is probably also true of ACTUAL postmortems....
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Well, the root cause is probably that raising VC depends on keeping up appearances.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Why is it that everyone wants to be manipulated. "Shooting the messenger" may looks like it hurts the other guy more but I've seen it screw up entire reporting hierarchies. By the time things go off the rails nobody higher than a level 1 manager has any damn clue what really happened, although they think they do based on the misinformation they've been fed.
    - closeparen 6y ago
      Keynesian beauty contest? A VC may personally appreciate a member of his portfolio showing weakness, but also assume that his peers won't.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        I've had bosses who loved hearing bad news. And bosses who were great about bad news as long as they were the first to hear about it. Nobody likes to get called out in a meeting about a problem they are responsible for but know nothing about. That's probably the weakness thing again.
microcolonel 6y ago
Is it really hurting them? Seems like both she and the people she sees succeeding as leaders act that way. Being indomitable and regulating your emotions seems to be part of the formula for effective leadership; why would we expect otherwise?
- belorn 6y ago
  Pretending that physical and mental health problems does not exist is a problem. It is sad aspect of human life that we reward social status and monetary rewards to those who are successful at hiding it, and punish those that either refuse or fail. It seems worth to ask if there is a better way. It also seems that in a time where we care about inclusivity and diversity we need to let go of the perception that only people with perfect health should be allowed to lead.
  - dpoochieni 6y ago
    I think it is even innate to look up to those kind of leaders. Obviously there are exceptions but they inspire confidence (at least in me, n=1)
    - jbay808 6y ago
      For what it's worth as a counterexample, many people attribute Dr. Bonnie Henry's display of emotional honesty and vulnerability at a live press conference as a masterclass in communication, an excellent example of leadership, and as having played an important role in British Columbia's (so far) successful coronavirus response. (Citations for the above are easy to find but I'm on mobile so I don't feel like digging up the links).
  - logarhythmic 6y ago
    Maybe it's unfortunate, but nobody said being a leader is easy. It's why most (including myself) are not capable of such a role
    - pm90 6y ago
dpoochieni 6y ago
And hope the stereotype is working for at least someone, or maybe we are completely irrational
jojobas 6y ago
That approach gets you to do most you can, weeding out those unwilling in a Darwinian matter. Successful CEOs are outside 6 sigma freaks in a certain respect.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Honestly though, I feel like some of the higher-up men have serious psychopathic issues; if they do show empathy, it comes across as pretended, as a trained tactic to pursue their goals. I've worked with driven managers who didn't have this and in the high-pressure environment they operated in (mostly high pressure to sell and make money, it was in software dev consultancy) ended up overworked and lost 6-12 months of their professional life because of it, plus whatever long term issues they developed because of it. Have people like Zucc, Bezos, or Trump ever taken an extended period of time off because of stress or giving too much of a shit? No, they just fuck off to their resorts, private islands and yachts, do some cocaine or whatever vice they have and shrug it off. And those are the public figures; behind them are the more shady characters that have a lot of money and power without the personality and fame. It's the investors that tell a good-willing CEO or founder that they need to sack people, to make the hard decisions, while they reap the rewards, earning ridiculous money without doing the work for it or having to deal with the emotional or moral consequences of their decisions / votes themselves. TL;DR I think people who care cannot reach the 'heights' that the super-rich, super-successful do. I also believe a trait / condition of psychopathy is a lot more prevalent in men. I believe this is a big factor in the gender representation in the upper echelons.
- afarrell 6y ago
  > I feel like some of the higher-up men have serious psychopathic issues; if they do show empathy, it comes across as pretended, as a trained tactic to pursue their goals. Some people need to deliberately practice social skills in order to successfully communicate what they really mean. > Have people like Zucc, Bezos, or Trump ever taken an extended period of time off because of stress or giving too much of a shit? No, they just fuck off to their resorts, private islands and yachts, do some cocaine or whatever vice they have and shrug it off. This seems like a statement that would require stronger evidence before I'd build any conclusions on top of it.

by belorn 6y ago

mtgp1000 6y ago

So if I want to push myself in pursuit of my dreams, I need to sandbag because working hard sets bad precedent for others? Edit: why is this flagged? Is it not a valid point? If you claim that there is a problem in tech because men are stoic and work long hours even during times of personal hardship, you're effectively shaming these men for working too hard. This is something that needs to be discussed before you start setting policy.

klyrs 6y ago
Treat it as a marathon, not a sprint. Making time for your mental health is not a cultural priority, and that results in a high rate of burnout across the industry. I think I'd have made it a lot further in my career, and faster, if I'd avoided that in my 20s.
- silvat 6y ago
  I think pursuing an idea or project with wreckless abandon can be a beautiful thing. The risk of getting injured in the attempt to push limits is the cost of doing business.
  - notkaiho 6y ago
    Can be; more often it's destructive, and to what end?
  - klyrs 6y ago
    You mean reckless. Wrecklessness is the opposite optimization ;)
- econcon 6y ago
  They can do that but then there are people like me, who need no weekend off, no vacations, can work more than 60 hours a week - I am ready to take all leadership It has infact opposite effect on me, the more I work the more I am escaped from normal day to life problems and emotional setbacks (caused mostly by other people and being aware myself, I can't do anything but just to blame myself) I choose work as my escapism.

hinkley 6y ago

Postmortems often happen because someone ignored a pain point prior to the failure, rather than taking stock and doing some preventative work. The general pattern of pretending everything is ok is one of my least favorite things about tech culture. I was going to say 'tech people' but it's clear that there are people who don't like this pattern either. They tend to self-identify (sometimes privately) when I buck the trend and do something sane instead.

cortesoft 6y ago
This is probably also true of ACTUAL postmortems....
jjoonathan 6y ago
Well, the root cause is probably that raising VC depends on keeping up appearances.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Why is it that everyone wants to be manipulated. "Shooting the messenger" may looks like it hurts the other guy more but I've seen it screw up entire reporting hierarchies. By the time things go off the rails nobody higher than a level 1 manager has any damn clue what really happened, although they think they do based on the misinformation they've been fed.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    Keynesian beauty contest? A VC may personally appreciate a member of his portfolio showing weakness, but also assume that his peers won't.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      I've had bosses who loved hearing bad news. And bosses who were great about bad news as long as they were the first to hear about it. Nobody likes to get called out in a meeting about a problem they are responsible for but know nothing about. That's probably the weakness thing again.

microcolonel 6y ago

Is it really hurting them? Seems like both she and the people she sees succeeding as leaders act that way. Being indomitable and regulating your emotions seems to be part of the formula for effective leadership; why would we expect otherwise?

belorn 6y ago
Pretending that physical and mental health problems does not exist is a problem. It is sad aspect of human life that we reward social status and monetary rewards to those who are successful at hiding it, and punish those that either refuse or fail. It seems worth to ask if there is a better way. It also seems that in a time where we care about inclusivity and diversity we need to let go of the perception that only people with perfect health should be allowed to lead.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  I think it is even innate to look up to those kind of leaders. Obviously there are exceptions but they inspire confidence (at least in me, n=1)
  - jbay808 6y ago
    For what it's worth as a counterexample, many people attribute Dr. Bonnie Henry's display of emotional honesty and vulnerability at a live press conference as a masterclass in communication, an excellent example of leadership, and as having played an important role in British Columbia's (so far) successful coronavirus response. (Citations for the above are easy to find but I'm on mobile so I don't feel like digging up the links).
- logarhythmic 6y ago
  Maybe it's unfortunate, but nobody said being a leader is easy. It's why most (including myself) are not capable of such a role
  - pm90 6y ago

dpoochieni 6y ago

And hope the stereotype is working for at least someone, or maybe we are completely irrational

jojobas 6y ago

That approach gets you to do most you can, weeding out those unwilling in a Darwinian matter. Successful CEOs are outside 6 sigma freaks in a certain respect.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

Honestly though, I feel like some of the higher-up men have serious psychopathic issues; if they do show empathy, it comes across as pretended, as a trained tactic to pursue their goals. I've worked with driven managers who didn't have this and in the high-pressure environment they operated in (mostly high pressure to sell and make money, it was in software dev consultancy) ended up overworked and lost 6-12 months of their professional life because of it, plus whatever long term issues they developed because of it. Have people like Zucc, Bezos, or Trump ever taken an extended period of time off because of stress or giving too much of a shit? No, they just fuck off to their resorts, private islands and yachts, do some cocaine or whatever vice they have and shrug it off. And those are the public figures; behind them are the more shady characters that have a lot of money and power without the personality and fame. It's the investors that tell a good-willing CEO or founder that they need to sack people, to make the hard decisions, while they reap the rewards, earning ridiculous money without doing the work for it or having to deal with the emotional or moral consequences of their decisions / votes themselves. TL;DR I think people who care cannot reach the 'heights' that the super-rich, super-successful do. I also believe a trait / condition of psychopathy is a lot more prevalent in men. I believe this is a big factor in the gender representation in the upper echelons.

afarrell 6y ago
> I feel like some of the higher-up men have serious psychopathic issues; if they do show empathy, it comes across as pretended, as a trained tactic to pursue their goals. Some people need to deliberately practice social skills in order to successfully communicate what they really mean. > Have people like Zucc, Bezos, or Trump ever taken an extended period of time off because of stress or giving too much of a shit? No, they just fuck off to their resorts, private islands and yachts, do some cocaine or whatever vice they have and shrug it off. This seems like a statement that would require stronger evidence before I'd build any conclusions on top of it.