4 ms·

> Yeah, this is probably controversial but I think the police should basically be the bullet sponges for the rest of society. Don't forget police are the FORCE

> Yeah, this is probably controversial but I think the police should basically be the bullet sponges for the rest of society. Don't forget police are the FORCE in law enforcement. Want Universal Healthcare, social programs, speed limits, voting rights, etc.? There has to be force to enforce those laws. Otherwise, toothless laws mean nothing.

relaxing 6y ago
Just what percent of broken laws in the US do you think end up being enforced with guns drawn? And given that subpopulation, have you considered any of current proposals making the round for nonviolent conflict resolution by specially trained, unarmed mediators?
- skellington 6y ago
  100% of all enforced laws are BACKED by the THREAT of guns drawn. That doesn't mean it gets there most of the time, but the THREAT is what backs all laws and the reason why people give in most of the time. ALL laws are ultimately backed by the threat of death because ultimately if you don't comply and refuse to ever comply and work your way up the violence ladder, it all ends in death. It amazes me that people don't understand this (though given the current state of education I shouldn't be surprised.) I laugh at the authoritative far left/right who want to disband the police. Who would oppress the population with their policies if there were no police?
  - seanhunter 6y ago
    Here in the UK few police have guns and they have to have special training if they want to be licensed to use firearms. Even then, the weapons are kept in a locked safe most of the time rather than being carried by default. There are many other countries that have a similar regime. The idea that you have to constantly threaten deadly force in order to enforce the law is not at all born out in other countries.
    - rs999gti 6y ago
      > The idea that you have to constantly threaten deadly force in order to enforce the law is not at all born out in other countries. It doesn't need to be physical force, it can be taxation, fines, imprisonment, or loss of rights. But force is force.
  - relaxing 6y ago
    No white collar criminal expects to get shot over accounting fraud or insider trading. They go quietly, turn themselves in. I do understand the libertarian view of things, the first-principles consideration that ends every conflict in a wild west shootout. But in reality most people want to participate in society, and abide by the social contracts therein. Feel free to consider my original questions, if you want.
- rs999gti 6y ago
  > Just what percent of broken laws in the US do you think end up being enforced with guns drawn? Why draw a gun and use force by threat? Imprisonment, fines, wage garnishment, loss of rights, etc. are all equally effective ways of enforcing laws.
ceejayoz 6y ago
> There has to be force to enforce those laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#Unarmed_police_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#... "In some countries including Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland excepted), Maldives, the police do not carry firearms unless the situation is expected to merit it."
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Perhaps it should be noted that citizens of those countries almost never carry guns themselves. And when they do(and want to commit crimes), e.g. Brevik, more murders happen while police stand around waiting for the gun units to show up.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    First, citizens possibly being more armed than everyday police is not a bad thing. Parking enforcement and process servers are less armed than the people they confront. It generally takes two to escalate - if a moving violation turns out to be a cornered violent felon, you want them to drive off rather than expecting a single officer to control them in the heat of the moment! Second, firearms could still be carried in every vehicle in case they're needed. For example, the National Park Police does this with rifles - ready to go in case needed in a remote area. This idea that a police officer responding to routine incidents may suddenly need to draw their handgun and start shooting is exactly the problem.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Stephen Paddock shot 471 people (killing 58, and injuring an additional 400+ via the ensuing stampedes, for a total of nearly a thousand casualties) in Vegas in 2017, despite armed security in the hotel and well-armed cops all over the festival and surrounding town. Norway has a murder rate of 0.53 per 100,000. The US is 5.0 per 100,000. Your assertions don't bear much scrutiny.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
kazagistar 6y ago
How did laws exist before the relatively modern institution of the police?
- rs999gti 6y ago
  Through other means of force and/or punishment.

relaxing 6y ago

Just what percent of broken laws in the US do you think end up being enforced with guns drawn? And given that subpopulation, have you considered any of current proposals making the round for nonviolent conflict resolution by specially trained, unarmed mediators?

skellington 6y ago
100% of all enforced laws are BACKED by the THREAT of guns drawn. That doesn't mean it gets there most of the time, but the THREAT is what backs all laws and the reason why people give in most of the time. ALL laws are ultimately backed by the threat of death because ultimately if you don't comply and refuse to ever comply and work your way up the violence ladder, it all ends in death. It amazes me that people don't understand this (though given the current state of education I shouldn't be surprised.) I laugh at the authoritative far left/right who want to disband the police. Who would oppress the population with their policies if there were no police?
- seanhunter 6y ago
  Here in the UK few police have guns and they have to have special training if they want to be licensed to use firearms. Even then, the weapons are kept in a locked safe most of the time rather than being carried by default. There are many other countries that have a similar regime. The idea that you have to constantly threaten deadly force in order to enforce the law is not at all born out in other countries.
  - rs999gti 6y ago
    > The idea that you have to constantly threaten deadly force in order to enforce the law is not at all born out in other countries. It doesn't need to be physical force, it can be taxation, fines, imprisonment, or loss of rights. But force is force.
- relaxing 6y ago
  No white collar criminal expects to get shot over accounting fraud or insider trading. They go quietly, turn themselves in. I do understand the libertarian view of things, the first-principles consideration that ends every conflict in a wild west shootout. But in reality most people want to participate in society, and abide by the social contracts therein. Feel free to consider my original questions, if you want.
rs999gti 6y ago
> Just what percent of broken laws in the US do you think end up being enforced with guns drawn? Why draw a gun and use force by threat? Imprisonment, fines, wage garnishment, loss of rights, etc. are all equally effective ways of enforcing laws.

ceejayoz 6y ago

> There has to be force to enforce those laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#Unarmed_police_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#... "In some countries including Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland excepted), Maldives, the police do not carry firearms unless the situation is expected to merit it."

oh_sigh 6y ago
Perhaps it should be noted that citizens of those countries almost never carry guns themselves. And when they do(and want to commit crimes), e.g. Brevik, more murders happen while police stand around waiting for the gun units to show up.
- mindslight 6y ago
  First, citizens possibly being more armed than everyday police is not a bad thing. Parking enforcement and process servers are less armed than the people they confront. It generally takes two to escalate - if a moving violation turns out to be a cornered violent felon, you want them to drive off rather than expecting a single officer to control them in the heat of the moment! Second, firearms could still be carried in every vehicle in case they're needed. For example, the National Park Police does this with rifles - ready to go in case needed in a remote area. This idea that a police officer responding to routine incidents may suddenly need to draw their handgun and start shooting is exactly the problem.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Stephen Paddock shot 471 people (killing 58, and injuring an additional 400+ via the ensuing stampedes, for a total of nearly a thousand casualties) in Vegas in 2017, despite armed security in the hotel and well-armed cops all over the festival and surrounding town. Norway has a murder rate of 0.53 per 100,000. The US is 5.0 per 100,000. Your assertions don't bear much scrutiny.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago

kazagistar 6y ago

How did laws exist before the relatively modern institution of the police?

rs999gti 6y ago
Through other means of force and/or punishment.