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The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over agai

The “debate” on racism was lost a long time ago. I would hope it’s well understood it’s a net negative for society. I don’t think debating it over and over again as if there’s merit to racist ideas is remotely a good idea. It’s like letting the flat earthers continue to teach science classes even though we know the earth is round.

grenoire 6y ago
I think understanding the history of racism why it's attractive to the masses is a great start in continuing healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. You might think that there is no merit, but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from.
- mikece 6y ago
  "What is the dignity of a human being?" and "Who is a human being?" are the two questions that fundamentally undermine a racist. It's quite possible that many racists hold their opinions out of ignorance rather than malice so an open debate is an opportunity for meeting someone in dialogue and remedying their ignorance. Those who are exposed to the truth and reject it pass over into malice and those people are their own worst enemy: leaving them in their self-inflicted echo chamber of rage is the worst possible fate that could befall them. It's not what I hope for racists, but I do pity those who end up in such a state.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  > but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from. Absolutely disagree, the appeal of racism is well understood, it's only effect on society is to subjugate people, separate along racial lines. > healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. "healthy discourse" implies that there is some kind of equivalency between racist and anti-racist, to believe that is to be willfully ignorant of situation and power structures which exist in the US today.
mikece 6y ago
"having a debate" != "teaching a class" > The "debate" on racism was lost a long time ago. When is the last time you asked someone who is a strident racist to explain their ideas in the form of a full essay or 30 minute presentation? Have you ever seen this done without the implicit or explicit assertion that the target of their animus is a lesser human or perhaps not human at all? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together -- including and ESPECIALLY impressionable young people raised in racist environments -- can see the absurdity of such an argument. The very act of exposing the ideas to open discussion and forcing the proponent to defend them with logic and reason is what ultimately undoes them. Will some still recalcitrantly cling to such ideas? Sure, but that but by that point it will be clear to anyone paying attention it's not for a reasonable purpose.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  Racism is anti-logic. Full stop. It's an ideology that reinforces itself only through the continued rejection of information. Racism is used extensively to study the backfire effect in psychology. The only way for such an absurd system of beliefs to exist is to either rely exclusively on morally bankrupt individuals, or to heavily lean on confirmation bias and reject any anti-racist ideas.
- watwut 6y ago
  I mean, this is not true? Impressionable young people raised in racist environments are impressed by racist arguments - whether emotions based ones or pragmatical ones. Simply said, own supremacism feels good. Even if you know it is based false argument it can still feel good. Compliments do feel good even if false. It is definitely not a threat. Also, my own supremacism is practically beneficial to me. I gain from that even if if is based on false arguments. That makes the supremacist arguments much more easy to accept.
- MisterBastahrd 6y ago
  We have Youtube, and you can go there and watch Bill Buckley make all the same stupid assumptions racists do and have them demolished by James Baldwin. The problem with modern debates is that they are not honest representations of the subject matter. They are exercises in tactical bullshit, meant to be rapid-fire, points-winning pseudo-arguments instead of constructive, intellectual discussions of the subject matter.
pm90 6y ago
Racism appears in many forms, identifying that is not as straightforward as it might appear to be. Debating Racism would probably include many of the ways in which racist behaviors manifest themselves, which isn’t clear from the get go. Eg we now know that certain policies such as redlining, war on drugs and harsher criminal sentences affected minority communities disproportionately. Were these policies racist? The current President doesn’t want immigrants from African countries but is ok with immigrants from Norway. Is that racist? And so, the debate over racism won’t be over for a while.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  Those are great topics of research. But platforming racists as just people with different ideas is a false equivalency.
  - brighton36 6y ago
    What's a racist, and who decides?
  - pm90 6y ago
    I agree. Debating racists does not necessarily mean giving them a platform though. They may already have one. The current US President is well regarded as a racist but he has a platform regardless of his racism. This is true of others as well; it’s not just KKK members who are racists, it can be anyone, especially anyone wielding power via institutions.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    What would you call racism, then, if not a different idea?
dlhavema 6y ago
I'm glad you made the flat earther connection here. I was thinking the same thing and you validated my thought process
lodi 6y ago
> I would hope it’s well understood... [that racism is]... a net negative for society. Sure, but there are many racism-adjacent topics that are not so clear cut. For example, affirmative action is a "racist"--in the sense of discriminating based on race--policy, but there are serious, intellectual arguments made both for and against it. I put "racist" in quotes there because there's also presently a debate on the changing definition of racism: is it racist if a policy or stereotype is race-based but well-meaning and positive? Is "power" required, and does this immunize minorities from being racist? Is it racist to criticize a long-held cultural belief or practice such as circumcision? I think all of these topics are worthy of open and honest debate. (Incidentally though, I think that the best way to shut down flat earthers and other conspiracy nuts is also through open debate...)
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  I was referring to OP's point that there's somehow a equal place for racism and anti-racism in debate. Conversations about race are difficult because inherently racist people are like a bad faith blackhole. Also, I would love to see a single example of serious flat earther changing their mind.

grenoire 6y ago

I think understanding the history of racism why it's attractive to the masses is a great start in continuing healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. You might think that there is no merit, but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from.

mikece 6y ago
"What is the dignity of a human being?" and "Who is a human being?" are the two questions that fundamentally undermine a racist. It's quite possible that many racists hold their opinions out of ignorance rather than malice so an open debate is an opportunity for meeting someone in dialogue and remedying their ignorance. Those who are exposed to the truth and reject it pass over into malice and those people are their own worst enemy: leaving them in their self-inflicted echo chamber of rage is the worst possible fate that could befall them. It's not what I hope for racists, but I do pity those who end up in such a state.
GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
> but you can only convince others to rid themselves of racist ideas if you understand where they are coming from. Absolutely disagree, the appeal of racism is well understood, it's only effect on society is to subjugate people, separate along racial lines. > healthy discourse over the politics and economics of the matter. "healthy discourse" implies that there is some kind of equivalency between racist and anti-racist, to believe that is to be willfully ignorant of situation and power structures which exist in the US today.

mikece 6y ago

"having a debate" != "teaching a class" > The "debate" on racism was lost a long time ago. When is the last time you asked someone who is a strident racist to explain their ideas in the form of a full essay or 30 minute presentation? Have you ever seen this done without the implicit or explicit assertion that the target of their animus is a lesser human or perhaps not human at all? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together -- including and ESPECIALLY impressionable young people raised in racist environments -- can see the absurdity of such an argument. The very act of exposing the ideas to open discussion and forcing the proponent to defend them with logic and reason is what ultimately undoes them. Will some still recalcitrantly cling to such ideas? Sure, but that but by that point it will be clear to anyone paying attention it's not for a reasonable purpose.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Racism is anti-logic. Full stop. It's an ideology that reinforces itself only through the continued rejection of information. Racism is used extensively to study the backfire effect in psychology. The only way for such an absurd system of beliefs to exist is to either rely exclusively on morally bankrupt individuals, or to heavily lean on confirmation bias and reject any anti-racist ideas.
watwut 6y ago
I mean, this is not true? Impressionable young people raised in racist environments are impressed by racist arguments - whether emotions based ones or pragmatical ones. Simply said, own supremacism feels good. Even if you know it is based false argument it can still feel good. Compliments do feel good even if false. It is definitely not a threat. Also, my own supremacism is practically beneficial to me. I gain from that even if if is based on false arguments. That makes the supremacist arguments much more easy to accept.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
We have Youtube, and you can go there and watch Bill Buckley make all the same stupid assumptions racists do and have them demolished by James Baldwin. The problem with modern debates is that they are not honest representations of the subject matter. They are exercises in tactical bullshit, meant to be rapid-fire, points-winning pseudo-arguments instead of constructive, intellectual discussions of the subject matter.

pm90 6y ago

Racism appears in many forms, identifying that is not as straightforward as it might appear to be. Debating Racism would probably include many of the ways in which racist behaviors manifest themselves, which isn’t clear from the get go. Eg we now know that certain policies such as redlining, war on drugs and harsher criminal sentences affected minority communities disproportionately. Were these policies racist? The current President doesn’t want immigrants from African countries but is ok with immigrants from Norway. Is that racist? And so, the debate over racism won’t be over for a while.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Those are great topics of research. But platforming racists as just people with different ideas is a false equivalency.
- brighton36 6y ago
  What's a racist, and who decides?
- pm90 6y ago
  I agree. Debating racists does not necessarily mean giving them a platform though. They may already have one. The current US President is well regarded as a racist but he has a platform regardless of his racism. This is true of others as well; it’s not just KKK members who are racists, it can be anyone, especially anyone wielding power via institutions.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  What would you call racism, then, if not a different idea?

dlhavema 6y ago

I'm glad you made the flat earther connection here. I was thinking the same thing and you validated my thought process

lodi 6y ago

> I would hope it’s well understood... [that racism is]... a net negative for society. Sure, but there are many racism-adjacent topics that are not so clear cut. For example, affirmative action is a "racist"--in the sense of discriminating based on race--policy, but there are serious, intellectual arguments made both for and against it. I put "racist" in quotes there because there's also presently a debate on the changing definition of racism: is it racist if a policy or stereotype is race-based but well-meaning and positive? Is "power" required, and does this immunize minorities from being racist? Is it racist to criticize a long-held cultural belief or practice such as circumcision? I think all of these topics are worthy of open and honest debate. (Incidentally though, I think that the best way to shut down flat earthers and other conspiracy nuts is also through open debate...)

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
I was referring to OP's point that there's somehow a equal place for racism and anti-racism in debate. Conversations about race are difficult because inherently racist people are like a bad faith blackhole. Also, I would love to see a single example of serious flat earther changing their mind.