9 ms·

I'm suspicious but for the pain it's going to cause it better have some real benefits

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what pain are you expecting? Maybe I'm spoiled because my development is mostly java, python, Go, docker, etc, all of which should have no runtime problem. In terms of IDE, It looks like vscode is ported which is great. I see two projects in my workflow: intellij and iterm2. I can live with a vanilla terminal but I'll need intellij. It looks like there's some[1] discussion around support. 1. https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/commit/db531b5 https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/commit/db531...
- ceo_tim_crook 6y ago
  out of what you've listed docker is probably the biggest issue -- there is support for multiarch containers but migration has some pain points depending on your setup, also docker will be have to made to work on the arm build of macos assuming virtualization is supported and speedy
- harpratap 6y ago
  How do you expect docker to run fine when it doesn't even run good on x86 OSX? There are constant performance issues (https://github.com/docker/for-mac/issues/3499 https://github.com/docker/for-mac/issues/3499) because docker-on-mac is basically a VM running Linux
  - aljarry 6y ago
    Docker is a linux tech tied to features in Linux kernel. You don't have cgroups and the like in XNU (OSX kernel) to be able to run docker natively on OSX.
    - harpratap 6y ago
      It's OSX's fault then. Windows can run containers natively now as long as the base image is windows too. No reason why OSX couldn't extend support either.
      - jen20 6y ago
        I would suggest that the VAST majority of Docker usage on Windows is not “windows containers” but Linux-based containers in a VM, be it WSL or Docker for Windows. The promise of Docker is that a container image built on machine A will run on machine B. That relies on them running the same operating system in some capacity.
- kccqzy 6y ago
  You are probably going to have a great deal of pain with Docker. If you use Docker for Mac, it basically uses Hypervisor.framework to run a slim x86_64 Linux virtual machine. Rumors suggest that Hypervisor.framework won't emulate x86_64 in the next version of macOS. We'll find out tomorrow. So you'll either set up docker-machine with a x86_64 based remote server to run your docker commands, or you'll just use ARM versions of the various docker images. I don't know where you get your images from, but many of them won't be available for ARM.
  - jychang 6y ago
    There's a surprisingly large number of ARM docker images. You can partially thank the Raspberry Pi for that.
    - 0x0 6y ago
      Is that ARM v6/v7 32bit or ARM v8 64bit? Most Raspberrys run a 32bit userland (armhf).
      - darkteflon 6y ago
        Plenty of ARM64-architected images available. Lots of us using 64-bit Ubuntu.
        harpratap 6y ago
        Yeah but then you have consistency issue which Docker aimed to get rid of. You local setup won't replicate what runs on production. The enterprise infra isn't going to switch to ARM in next 1-2 years as Apple hopes to.
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    I bet that all popular docker images will be available for ARM very soon. It's a matter of recompiling.
- jychang 6y ago
  What are the largest benefit for iterm2? I use it but honestly I don't see much improvement over Terminal.
  - robin_reala 6y ago
    Probably tmux integration, but the speed decrease against Terminal doesn’t warrant the additional features for me at least.
    - jen20 6y ago
      A trick I recently learned is to add iTerm 2 to the “Developer Tools” section of the Security prefpane - it makes it fly. Similarly if you’ve ported your config through several versions of iTerm, ensure that GPU-accelerated rendering is on. It’s no stretch to say that iTerm 2 is a major one of the reasons I cannot stand desktop Linux (or Windows, even with the new terminal there).
  - neurostimulant 6y ago
    For me, it's the little things such as ability to undo accidental terminal tab closing with cmd+z, restoring sessions after restart so I don't need to reopen a bunch of tabs and cd manually, ability to show timestamp for each command run, etc.
- kiwiana 6y ago
  You mention Docker which most definitely will be impacted by this change. Docker on Mac runs off a virtualized x86 Linux instance. Docker only announced ARM support last year I think, I can't imagine Docker for ARM would be as anywhere near as fully supported as it is for x86, and you certainly won't be able to build x86 images to push to x86 servers, without using some sort of emulation layer which will be horribly slow compared to current macOS x86 docker.
  - treekogreen 6y ago
    Currently running docker using WSL2 on an ARM laptop. So it's pretty much native Linux, as an anecdote I can tell you that it's just that much more stable than with my Mac or with a traditional Windows laptop. The only downsides is there's a few docker containers that you have to hunt around for to get the ARM64 version. The only way I see docker performance to be better than this or more stable is to switch to a Linux machine entirely.
    - kiwiana 6y ago
      Yes - that's what I was alluding to in my original reply, re: lack of support, lack of images. Docker running on ARM might be great, but one of the original purposes of docker was to build and run the exact same images that would run on your servers, which will no longer be the case unless those servers are ARM based as well.
    - mgoetzke 6y ago
      What laptop ?
      - treekogreen 6y ago
        Surface Pro X
  - darkteflon 6y ago
    I use ARM64 Docker on my Raspberry Pi 4s, it’s excellent and loads of images are already available.
- ryan-allen 6y ago
  VS Code is not yet ported to ARM, there are bootleg builds but they do not work with many extensions, for example Remote SSH relies on a project that lies below the VS Code project proper, and that (apparently) is a fair bit of work to bring to ARM (though it's being worked on) [0] [0] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/6442 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/6442
  - treekogreen 6y ago
    You are wrong. I currently use VS Code insiders daily on ARM with all my extensions working. https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_46#_windows-arm64-insiders https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_46#_windows-arm64-i...
    - ryan-allen 6y ago
      Really? That is GREAT NEWS!!! EDIT: It works great, and it has remote for ssh and wsl!!! This made my day!
    - maxbaines 6y ago
      I second this, of course VS Code needed Electron which needs Node all ready for ARM https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/25998#issuecomment-637111448 https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/25998#issuecomment-637... Also to note Edge is available on ARM. Very happy Surface Pro X user here.
      - ryan-allen 6y ago
        I second Edge working fantastic on ARM! I have a Galaxy Book S.
- tempay 6y ago
  I don't expect it to be too painful. Most common software has already been build for ARM on Linux. A lot of things have event been built for Apple's ARM chips running iOS, though the App Store restrictions have limited the usefulness of these builds. Unmaintained closed source software will stop working but most of these applications were already killed by the removal of 32-bit x86 support in Catalina. The biggest potential issue will be how people get hardware for doing the builds. Hopefully Apple will provide a good way of cross-compiling or a new machine that is suitable for datacenter deployment (ARM based mac mini?). We'll have to wait for the WWDC announcement to find out.
- imtringued 6y ago
  What about legacy software and software provided by a vendor? Let's say I want to run Fusion 360 and Altium on my hypothetical ARM Mac. Can I do that today? Outdated information: Windows on ARM requires you to build UWP apps which is more work than just a recompile.

Out of curiosity, what pain are you expecting? Maybe I'm spoiled because my development is mostly java, python, Go, docker, etc, all of which should have no runtime problem. In terms of IDE, It looks like vscode is ported which is great. I see two projects in my workflow: intellij and iterm2. I can live with a vanilla terminal but I'll need intellij. It looks like there's some[1] discussion around support. 1. https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/commit/db531b5 https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/commit/db531...

ceo_tim_crook 6y ago
out of what you've listed docker is probably the biggest issue -- there is support for multiarch containers but migration has some pain points depending on your setup, also docker will be have to made to work on the arm build of macos assuming virtualization is supported and speedy
harpratap 6y ago
How do you expect docker to run fine when it doesn't even run good on x86 OSX? There are constant performance issues (https://github.com/docker/for-mac/issues/3499 https://github.com/docker/for-mac/issues/3499) because docker-on-mac is basically a VM running Linux
- aljarry 6y ago
  Docker is a linux tech tied to features in Linux kernel. You don't have cgroups and the like in XNU (OSX kernel) to be able to run docker natively on OSX.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    It's OSX's fault then. Windows can run containers natively now as long as the base image is windows too. No reason why OSX couldn't extend support either.
    - jen20 6y ago
      I would suggest that the VAST majority of Docker usage on Windows is not “windows containers” but Linux-based containers in a VM, be it WSL or Docker for Windows. The promise of Docker is that a container image built on machine A will run on machine B. That relies on them running the same operating system in some capacity.
kccqzy 6y ago
You are probably going to have a great deal of pain with Docker. If you use Docker for Mac, it basically uses Hypervisor.framework to run a slim x86_64 Linux virtual machine. Rumors suggest that Hypervisor.framework won't emulate x86_64 in the next version of macOS. We'll find out tomorrow. So you'll either set up docker-machine with a x86_64 based remote server to run your docker commands, or you'll just use ARM versions of the various docker images. I don't know where you get your images from, but many of them won't be available for ARM.
- jychang 6y ago
  There's a surprisingly large number of ARM docker images. You can partially thank the Raspberry Pi for that.
  - 0x0 6y ago
    Is that ARM v6/v7 32bit or ARM v8 64bit? Most Raspberrys run a 32bit userland (armhf).
    - darkteflon 6y ago
      Plenty of ARM64-architected images available. Lots of us using 64-bit Ubuntu.
      - harpratap 6y ago
        Yeah but then you have consistency issue which Docker aimed to get rid of. You local setup won't replicate what runs on production. The enterprise infra isn't going to switch to ARM in next 1-2 years as Apple hopes to.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  I bet that all popular docker images will be available for ARM very soon. It's a matter of recompiling.
jychang 6y ago
What are the largest benefit for iterm2? I use it but honestly I don't see much improvement over Terminal.
- robin_reala 6y ago
  Probably tmux integration, but the speed decrease against Terminal doesn’t warrant the additional features for me at least.
  - jen20 6y ago
    A trick I recently learned is to add iTerm 2 to the “Developer Tools” section of the Security prefpane - it makes it fly. Similarly if you’ve ported your config through several versions of iTerm, ensure that GPU-accelerated rendering is on. It’s no stretch to say that iTerm 2 is a major one of the reasons I cannot stand desktop Linux (or Windows, even with the new terminal there).
- neurostimulant 6y ago
  For me, it's the little things such as ability to undo accidental terminal tab closing with cmd+z, restoring sessions after restart so I don't need to reopen a bunch of tabs and cd manually, ability to show timestamp for each command run, etc.
kiwiana 6y ago
You mention Docker which most definitely will be impacted by this change. Docker on Mac runs off a virtualized x86 Linux instance. Docker only announced ARM support last year I think, I can't imagine Docker for ARM would be as anywhere near as fully supported as it is for x86, and you certainly won't be able to build x86 images to push to x86 servers, without using some sort of emulation layer which will be horribly slow compared to current macOS x86 docker.
- treekogreen 6y ago
  Currently running docker using WSL2 on an ARM laptop. So it's pretty much native Linux, as an anecdote I can tell you that it's just that much more stable than with my Mac or with a traditional Windows laptop. The only downsides is there's a few docker containers that you have to hunt around for to get the ARM64 version. The only way I see docker performance to be better than this or more stable is to switch to a Linux machine entirely.
  - kiwiana 6y ago
    Yes - that's what I was alluding to in my original reply, re: lack of support, lack of images. Docker running on ARM might be great, but one of the original purposes of docker was to build and run the exact same images that would run on your servers, which will no longer be the case unless those servers are ARM based as well.
  - mgoetzke 6y ago
    What laptop ?
    - treekogreen 6y ago
      Surface Pro X
- darkteflon 6y ago
  I use ARM64 Docker on my Raspberry Pi 4s, it’s excellent and loads of images are already available.
ryan-allen 6y ago
VS Code is not yet ported to ARM, there are bootleg builds but they do not work with many extensions, for example Remote SSH relies on a project that lies below the VS Code project proper, and that (apparently) is a fair bit of work to bring to ARM (though it's being worked on) [0] [0] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/6442 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/6442
- treekogreen 6y ago
  You are wrong. I currently use VS Code insiders daily on ARM with all my extensions working. https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_46#_windows-arm64-insiders https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_46#_windows-arm64-i...
  - ryan-allen 6y ago
    Really? That is GREAT NEWS!!! EDIT: It works great, and it has remote for ssh and wsl!!! This made my day!
  - maxbaines 6y ago
    I second this, of course VS Code needed Electron which needs Node all ready for ARM https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/25998#issuecomment-637111448 https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/25998#issuecomment-637... Also to note Edge is available on ARM. Very happy Surface Pro X user here.
    - ryan-allen 6y ago
      I second Edge working fantastic on ARM! I have a Galaxy Book S.
tempay 6y ago
I don't expect it to be too painful. Most common software has already been build for ARM on Linux. A lot of things have event been built for Apple's ARM chips running iOS, though the App Store restrictions have limited the usefulness of these builds. Unmaintained closed source software will stop working but most of these applications were already killed by the removal of 32-bit x86 support in Catalina. The biggest potential issue will be how people get hardware for doing the builds. Hopefully Apple will provide a good way of cross-compiling or a new machine that is suitable for datacenter deployment (ARM based mac mini?). We'll have to wait for the WWDC announcement to find out.
imtringued 6y ago
What about legacy software and software provided by a vendor? Let's say I want to run Fusion 360 and Altium on my hypothetical ARM Mac. Can I do that today? Outdated information: Windows on ARM requires you to build UWP apps which is more work than just a recompile.