8 ms·

The Defaults Don't Work

86 points by moultano 6y ago

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I like this essay but I'm going to disagree hard on one point: > To accommodate our education and to achieve financial security we delay commitment and childbirth to the edge of biological feasibility. Even when finally successful, after miscarriages and struggles to conceive (and increasingly, after IVF) we find that the exhaustions of raising young children hit us in middle age instead of in our prime. When I was a teenager, I would stay up all night for the hell of it. As a 35 year old, a few hours of missing sleep set me back for the next few days. When the time finally comes to raise children, we deal with the 1AM nursing and night terrors with the body we have left. In two generations of delayed childbearing the toll of time compounds, and leaves us as grandparents physically unable to provide the depth of support that a young family needs. Most 20-year-olds are still finding out who they are and don't really know what they want--in a partner, in a child, in life in general. There are real, if unfortunate, biological issues with waiting too long, but also healthy societal advantages. (Me saying this as a 26-year-old doesn't quite feel right, but I still think I'm correct. I certainly don't feel ready for a child yet, and not merely because of economics.)
- wikibob 6y ago
  This is a seismic shift from How humans lived from the beginning of the species until just over one hundred years ago. Which I believe is the authors point.
- jariel 6y ago
  Yes, I felt the same way, but it's really a big deal because our 'social progression' is not lining up with our 'biological progression'. The reproductive process is more than 'sex, parts and birth' it's about the social condidtions that drive it, and it's obviously essential to our survival. So it's scary. And FYI - when people actually do start to want to settle down and have kids, the 'finance' issue will hit really hard. Sister has 3 kids, she's a Director and her after-tax income basically pays for daycare and not much more. She works basically to maintain status, so when the kids are a little older, she's still earning well. That's nutbars.
- war1025 6y ago
  > Me saying this as a 26-year-old doesn't quite feel right, but I still think I'm correct. I certainly don't feel ready for a child yet Our first kid was born a week after I turned 27. We got married at 23. If you had asked me at 25 whether I was ready for a kid I would have said no. That summer my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer. That put things into much sharper focus, and it turned into a question of "if not now, when?". So then we decided to go for it. My dad got to meet his first grandchild. Three weeks later his cancer started growing again. Three months later he was dead. In my opinion, the greatest disservice we do to the young is shielding them from the reality that life comes to an end and it's going to pass by whether you are ready for it or not. Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out.
  - zachwill 6y ago
    Thank you for posting this. One of the best comments I’ve read on HN! (We had kids at 29 — and I completely agree with your takeaways.)
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    >Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out. This seems to imply people should have kids before they are ready or know its what they want. Consider the fact that for you it might have worked out but for many they are left with children they are unable to support or do not have any feelings for. Having children is not an essential end goal for life and not having them is just as valid of a choice.
    - war1025 6y ago
      I can see how you would read it that way, but when I wrote it, I meant it more as a tie-in to the sentence before it: > In my opinion, the greatest disservice we do to the young is shielding them from the reality that life comes to an end and it's going to pass by whether you are ready for it or not. > Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out. I think no matter what your goals in life, there is a need to actually get around to them rather than waiting for "someday." For me, it was having children. For others, maybe it's something else. > Having children is not an essential end goal for life Having children is actually an essential end goal of life. Without children there is no life. That doesn't mean everyone needs to make that choice though.
- couchand 6y ago
  I suspect you could ask a person of almost any age if they know who they are and what they want and none of them could come up with a cogent big-picture answer. We try things, we make mistakes, we look for the things that will give us satisfaction and joy, and we live life. Don't wait.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    Idk, I feel like all the way back to primary school I have known pretty much exactly what I want. I always knew I wanted to be a programmer. The only things that have changed from my original plan was where I want to live and finding out my sexuality.
- Neeek 6y ago
  Those societal advantages are only that way because of the defaults the article is describing. You could imagine a set of norms that better encourages and supports young parents (in child rearing as well as personal development).
- duxup 6y ago
  I'm going to say that finding out who you are sometimes doesn't happen until you HAVE to find out. Maybe that has less to do with the freedom to explore as it is ... what you do when you don't have that freedom and you're busy with other things. I know some good folks out there spending huge amounts of time trying to find out who they are, and in the meantime they're challenged with ... really predictable 20 something challenges. Good things like getting outside, learning to climb, traveling and productive stuff. But I talk to them and they seem to expect things to just sort of jump out at them doing some of these things with some truth. But I'm not sure that's when you really learn those things...
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > I'm going to say that finding out who you are sometimes doesn't happen until you HAVE to find out. Maybe that has less to do with the freedom to explore as it is ... what you do when you don't have that freedom and you're busy with other things. When I said that, I was thinking of marriage more than anything else. To go to the extreme end of the spectrum, there's a reason most high school romances don't work out over the long term (although of course there are exceptions), you're just too young and changing too much.
- evmar 6y ago
  One of the most commonly repeated pieces of advice I got about having children from other parents is that "you will never feel ready for it".
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I have thought about this many times and all I can think of is that people just have unplanned children and once the child is there parents will structure their life around the child. This isn't something you can prepare yourself for. The idea of a responsible parent that is choosing to have children at the perfect time is basically a myth.
- m_mueller 6y ago
  I got my son at 30. I'd say noone is ever ready and you just gotta learn parenting as it happens. On the other hand I fault noone to wait or even forego parenting as you can really kiss your freedoms goodbye.
mwcampbell 6y ago
> We pretend that children don’t need to see their parents working to learn what the real world looks like. That age-segregated schools full of hyper-local and transient cultural pathologies are a sufficient role model. Our children enter the world having barely observed what the work of being an adult actually is, and then understandably struggle to reproduce it. Their entire lifetime of exposure to the economy and what it makes consists mainly of the media they consume, and so their conception of fulfilling careers is dominated by making video games and being in bands. Any ideas on how to solve this problem without going back to the world as it used to be (which is probably impossible anyway)?
- c0nfused 6y ago
  I have found that work from home can make a bunch of time up in most people's day. That makes it easier to both spend time with my kids and talk about what it is I am doing right now. I see many more professionals with their kids at the park these days too. Obviously, the current state of things is not likely to last but it seems like it might be a way closer to the goal
- O_H_E 6y ago
  I can personally relate to this. I am a university student and living the past few months with my dad working from home, has taught me quite a bit about money management, the workplace, how R&D jobs feel like, and much more that nobody ever thought to tell me about without asking.
- jariel 6y ago
  I personally don't quite agree with the thesis of the essay, but it is good, and this point is really insightful. Children have no idea what 'work' is, or why it's done, or even why they are obtaining and education - in my own experience I feel as though it took 20 years of 'actual work and deprogramming' for me to finally 'get it'. I think that kids having real jobs from an early age is a really good start - doesn't matter what. Sweeping up, flipping burgers, the 'sandwich cart guy/girl at the golf club'. This is a good start. There's a young kid at my local Chinese Food shop who's maybe 8 years old, and he works there, it's a 'family business' it seems absolutely and perfectly normal, 'healthy' in fact (without knowing all the details). I'm inclined to think this kid will be a little more mature for his age than otherwise. U Waterloo has 5 year Eng programs that focus on internships, only in hindsight to I realize how infinitely valuable internships are. I think these could be made much more open.
lucio 6y ago
"Christmas is a celebration of the triumph of humanity over winter" For half of the world, Christmas is in the middle of the summer
- couchand 6y ago
  Go ahead and read the rest of the article, please.
eitland 6y ago
Towards the end there's this: > So I’m going to be more experimental, and more generous towards other people’s experiments. I’m going to pay more attention. And I’m going to look with the clearest eyes I can at the world as it is, instead of the world as it was or as I wish it to be. That is my takeaway from the article, but reading the whole thing to see how the author arrives there was also very interesting.
notdonspaulding 6y ago
This is a great essay, and worth the read. The first part is descriptive in nature, and I highly recommend reading that at least through the "Parenthood" section. The article is short on prescriptive advice, however, and it really loses some of its steam because of it. This is partly due to the authors frank, humble admission of ignorance about how to build a culture that honestly evaluates itself, an admission which is admirable. But the prescriptive section also seems weakened because it is devoid of any consideration of religion and spirituality on culture. Both in history as well as the present, one of the "experiments" the author could refer to is the removal of religion from all aspects of public life. Still, this essay does much to point out the impropriety of our Current Culture emperor running around in the nude, and for that, it's worth the read.

86 points by moultano 6y ago

I like this essay but I'm going to disagree hard on one point: > To accommodate our education and to achieve financial security we delay commitment and childbirth to the edge of biological feasibility. Even when finally successful, after miscarriages and struggles to conceive (and increasingly, after IVF) we find that the exhaustions of raising young children hit us in middle age instead of in our prime. When I was a teenager, I would stay up all night for the hell of it. As a 35 year old, a few hours of missing sleep set me back for the next few days. When the time finally comes to raise children, we deal with the 1AM nursing and night terrors with the body we have left. In two generations of delayed childbearing the toll of time compounds, and leaves us as grandparents physically unable to provide the depth of support that a young family needs. Most 20-year-olds are still finding out who they are and don't really know what they want--in a partner, in a child, in life in general. There are real, if unfortunate, biological issues with waiting too long, but also healthy societal advantages. (Me saying this as a 26-year-old doesn't quite feel right, but I still think I'm correct. I certainly don't feel ready for a child yet, and not merely because of economics.)

wikibob 6y ago
This is a seismic shift from How humans lived from the beginning of the species until just over one hundred years ago. Which I believe is the authors point.
jariel 6y ago
Yes, I felt the same way, but it's really a big deal because our 'social progression' is not lining up with our 'biological progression'. The reproductive process is more than 'sex, parts and birth' it's about the social condidtions that drive it, and it's obviously essential to our survival. So it's scary. And FYI - when people actually do start to want to settle down and have kids, the 'finance' issue will hit really hard. Sister has 3 kids, she's a Director and her after-tax income basically pays for daycare and not much more. She works basically to maintain status, so when the kids are a little older, she's still earning well. That's nutbars.
war1025 6y ago
> Me saying this as a 26-year-old doesn't quite feel right, but I still think I'm correct. I certainly don't feel ready for a child yet Our first kid was born a week after I turned 27. We got married at 23. If you had asked me at 25 whether I was ready for a kid I would have said no. That summer my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer. That put things into much sharper focus, and it turned into a question of "if not now, when?". So then we decided to go for it. My dad got to meet his first grandchild. Three weeks later his cancer started growing again. Three months later he was dead. In my opinion, the greatest disservice we do to the young is shielding them from the reality that life comes to an end and it's going to pass by whether you are ready for it or not. Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out.
- zachwill 6y ago
  Thank you for posting this. One of the best comments I’ve read on HN! (We had kids at 29 — and I completely agree with your takeaways.)
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  >Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out. This seems to imply people should have kids before they are ready or know its what they want. Consider the fact that for you it might have worked out but for many they are left with children they are unable to support or do not have any feelings for. Having children is not an essential end goal for life and not having them is just as valid of a choice.
  - war1025 6y ago
    I can see how you would read it that way, but when I wrote it, I meant it more as a tie-in to the sentence before it: > In my opinion, the greatest disservice we do to the young is shielding them from the reality that life comes to an end and it's going to pass by whether you are ready for it or not. > Adulthood is basically accepting that there are things you want / need to do, even though you are afraid or uncertain how they will turn out. I think no matter what your goals in life, there is a need to actually get around to them rather than waiting for "someday." For me, it was having children. For others, maybe it's something else. > Having children is not an essential end goal for life Having children is actually an essential end goal of life. Without children there is no life. That doesn't mean everyone needs to make that choice though.
couchand 6y ago
I suspect you could ask a person of almost any age if they know who they are and what they want and none of them could come up with a cogent big-picture answer. We try things, we make mistakes, we look for the things that will give us satisfaction and joy, and we live life. Don't wait.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Idk, I feel like all the way back to primary school I have known pretty much exactly what I want. I always knew I wanted to be a programmer. The only things that have changed from my original plan was where I want to live and finding out my sexuality.
Neeek 6y ago
Those societal advantages are only that way because of the defaults the article is describing. You could imagine a set of norms that better encourages and supports young parents (in child rearing as well as personal development).
duxup 6y ago
I'm going to say that finding out who you are sometimes doesn't happen until you HAVE to find out. Maybe that has less to do with the freedom to explore as it is ... what you do when you don't have that freedom and you're busy with other things. I know some good folks out there spending huge amounts of time trying to find out who they are, and in the meantime they're challenged with ... really predictable 20 something challenges. Good things like getting outside, learning to climb, traveling and productive stuff. But I talk to them and they seem to expect things to just sort of jump out at them doing some of these things with some truth. But I'm not sure that's when you really learn those things...
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > I'm going to say that finding out who you are sometimes doesn't happen until you HAVE to find out. Maybe that has less to do with the freedom to explore as it is ... what you do when you don't have that freedom and you're busy with other things. When I said that, I was thinking of marriage more than anything else. To go to the extreme end of the spectrum, there's a reason most high school romances don't work out over the long term (although of course there are exceptions), you're just too young and changing too much.
evmar 6y ago
One of the most commonly repeated pieces of advice I got about having children from other parents is that "you will never feel ready for it".
- imtringued 6y ago
  I have thought about this many times and all I can think of is that people just have unplanned children and once the child is there parents will structure their life around the child. This isn't something you can prepare yourself for. The idea of a responsible parent that is choosing to have children at the perfect time is basically a myth.
m_mueller 6y ago
I got my son at 30. I'd say noone is ever ready and you just gotta learn parenting as it happens. On the other hand I fault noone to wait or even forego parenting as you can really kiss your freedoms goodbye.

mwcampbell 6y ago

> We pretend that children don’t need to see their parents working to learn what the real world looks like. That age-segregated schools full of hyper-local and transient cultural pathologies are a sufficient role model. Our children enter the world having barely observed what the work of being an adult actually is, and then understandably struggle to reproduce it. Their entire lifetime of exposure to the economy and what it makes consists mainly of the media they consume, and so their conception of fulfilling careers is dominated by making video games and being in bands. Any ideas on how to solve this problem without going back to the world as it used to be (which is probably impossible anyway)?

c0nfused 6y ago
I have found that work from home can make a bunch of time up in most people's day. That makes it easier to both spend time with my kids and talk about what it is I am doing right now. I see many more professionals with their kids at the park these days too. Obviously, the current state of things is not likely to last but it seems like it might be a way closer to the goal
O_H_E 6y ago
I can personally relate to this. I am a university student and living the past few months with my dad working from home, has taught me quite a bit about money management, the workplace, how R&D jobs feel like, and much more that nobody ever thought to tell me about without asking.
jariel 6y ago
I personally don't quite agree with the thesis of the essay, but it is good, and this point is really insightful. Children have no idea what 'work' is, or why it's done, or even why they are obtaining and education - in my own experience I feel as though it took 20 years of 'actual work and deprogramming' for me to finally 'get it'. I think that kids having real jobs from an early age is a really good start - doesn't matter what. Sweeping up, flipping burgers, the 'sandwich cart guy/girl at the golf club'. This is a good start. There's a young kid at my local Chinese Food shop who's maybe 8 years old, and he works there, it's a 'family business' it seems absolutely and perfectly normal, 'healthy' in fact (without knowing all the details). I'm inclined to think this kid will be a little more mature for his age than otherwise. U Waterloo has 5 year Eng programs that focus on internships, only in hindsight to I realize how infinitely valuable internships are. I think these could be made much more open.

lucio 6y ago

"Christmas is a celebration of the triumph of humanity over winter" For half of the world, Christmas is in the middle of the summer

couchand 6y ago
Go ahead and read the rest of the article, please.

eitland 6y ago

Towards the end there's this: > So I’m going to be more experimental, and more generous towards other people’s experiments. I’m going to pay more attention. And I’m going to look with the clearest eyes I can at the world as it is, instead of the world as it was or as I wish it to be. That is my takeaway from the article, but reading the whole thing to see how the author arrives there was also very interesting.

notdonspaulding 6y ago

This is a great essay, and worth the read. The first part is descriptive in nature, and I highly recommend reading that at least through the "Parenthood" section. The article is short on prescriptive advice, however, and it really loses some of its steam because of it. This is partly due to the authors frank, humble admission of ignorance about how to build a culture that honestly evaluates itself, an admission which is admirable. But the prescriptive section also seems weakened because it is devoid of any consideration of religion and spirituality on culture. Both in history as well as the present, one of the "experiments" the author could refer to is the removal of religion from all aspects of public life. Still, this essay does much to point out the impropriety of our Current Culture emperor running around in the nude, and for that, it's worth the read.