4 ms·

What they won't tell you is how many healthy children were bought for a few grand each by Americans and Canadians who flooded Romania after the '89 revolution.

What they won't tell you is how many healthy children were bought for a few grand each by Americans and Canadians who flooded Romania after the '89 revolution. They were all outside those terrible orphanages. This foreign adoption lobby was so powerful that the US government pressured Romanian authorities to keep allowing the black market of no-red-tape foreign adoptions after the 2001 ban: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/05BUCHAREST1173_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/05BUCHAREST1173_a.html Those few voices outside the choir were silenced: http://www.roeliepost.com/ http://www.roeliepost.com/ Fun fact: Romania's current president and his wife made a fortune as middlemen for foreigners buying children from poor families - https://evz.ro/purtatorul-de-cuvant-al-pnl-alina-gorghiu-confirma-implicarea-lui-klaus-iohannis-in-adoptiile-de-copii-de-dupa-1989.html https://evz.ro/purtatorul-de-cuvant-al-pnl-alina-gorghiu-con...

bad_user 6y ago
Arguably international adoptions are a good thing, given the proper checks in place to ensure those children aren't adopted into slavery. There are currently tens of thousands of abandoned children in Romania that nobody wants to adopt. And many of Romania's orphanages are still terrible. And your last sentence isn't a "fact", but an unsupported allegation. For it to be a fact you'd need actual proof, instead of links from shitty journals. I'm a Romanian living in Romania btw.
- chimen 6y ago
  Can you give me proof that Iliescu called the miners into Bucharest twice after the fall of Ceausescu and beat the shit out of people for the sole reason that they were walking on the streets? What is the proof that you require when we're talking about the current president? What constitutes proof? A conviction in court?...then, Iliescu is innocent even though the common knowledge in this country IS (notice the caps) that he and a few others were responsible for those atrocities in the early 90s. A mere Google search reveals more than 20 newspapers supporting the claim that he was somewhat involved in shady business with children - heck there are even filmed investigations with multiple people/families claiming on camera that he glued the offer with the demand.
  - bad_user 6y ago
    > Can you give me proof that Iliescu called the miners into Bucharest twice after the fall of Ceausescu and beat the shit out of people for the sole reason that they were walking on the streets? Yes, because he did that on national television, congratulating the miners afterwards for their civic spirit. Really poor analogy btw.
    - chimen 6y ago
      > Really poor analogy btw I'm not surprised. How about the house he just lost in Brasov's court which concluded it was acquired with fake documents? I know: "Shitty court"
      - bad_user 6y ago
        Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence dude, this is obvious. But fact of the matter is you made an allegation that is not supported by evidence. If we are talking about what constitutes proof, I can tell what isn't proof ... proof isn't a link from a journal guilty of yellow journalism and of spreading false news, that doesn't cite any credible source, an article written just before the presidential elections from 2014, an obvious hit piece. Don't link to such junk and I won't pick on you for doing so.
        trumbler 6y ago
        I just love it when there is so much crime and corruption in Romania, that people dont argue over complex topics - they argue over who is the least criminal.
        bad_user 6y ago
        That's not what I'm arguing for.
        trumbler 6y ago
blueboo 6y ago
> The foreign adoption lobby was so powerful... One of those statements that makes an eyebrow go suborbital
zuppy 6y ago
why have we started downvoting the comments we don’t like? how does this improve the quality of the discussion? all he said is true, there were children “purchased” by families that really wanted them. is this ok? they do have a much better life, most of them at least, but are we ok with buying people just because it’s for the good? i honestly don’t know the answer as i have no data regarding what happened with them afterwards (i really hope they got into good families). and please don’t be a pedant, i am well aware that they had no price tags, but they have been adopted through bribe and political influence.
- triyambakam 6y ago
  > why have we started downvoting the comments we don’t like? Something about human nature...? there is a downvote button there and it feels empowering (?) and satisfying (?) to see someone you disagree with go grey
- RealityVoid 6y ago
  > but are we ok with buying people just because it’s for the good? I will tell you my simple answer for this: Yes. If in the end the results are better for humanity as whole, I can tell you, I, personally, am fine with buying people for money and even with other, even LESS moral means. I think we should not let our sense of morality stay in the way of what could improve things. I know it sound horrible, heartless and imoral, but there are plenty of cases along history when taking the moral high ground led to worse outcomes for everyone involved. I will tell you the reason why he's downvoted. His talking points were based on mostly nationalistic sentiment and used as a talking point in the Romanian elections and politics for a LONG time and by a lot of self-interested people. There is a lot of background to the national context here that's hard to explain, but for example, last 2 election cycles, our current president, Klaus Johannis, was being painted by the opposition as a child trafficker because sometime in the 90's assisted with an adoption of a child by a canadian couple. They tried paining him as a child trafficker and promoting obvious lies, such that the children were sold so that they would harvest their organs. Really egregious stuff. They basically fan the flames of the "us, the great Romania" against the "evil and manipulative West that is holding us down" that was planted _very_ deep in the Romania psyche by the communist regime. I assume most downvotes came from Romanians, of witch, I assume, there are many more on HN than one would believe.
trumbler 6y ago
Yet Romanians love their current president - i yet have to understand why such preference for criminal leaders in that country. Is it a reflection of the Romanian society? Scamming, petty crime, corruption, and generally speaking cheating are so common that it seems like selling babies for profit doesn't even bother people. Apparently human trafficking is nowadays done with the help of local authorities, and Romanians barely care about it.

bad_user 6y ago

Arguably international adoptions are a good thing, given the proper checks in place to ensure those children aren't adopted into slavery. There are currently tens of thousands of abandoned children in Romania that nobody wants to adopt. And many of Romania's orphanages are still terrible. And your last sentence isn't a "fact", but an unsupported allegation. For it to be a fact you'd need actual proof, instead of links from shitty journals. I'm a Romanian living in Romania btw.

chimen 6y ago
Can you give me proof that Iliescu called the miners into Bucharest twice after the fall of Ceausescu and beat the shit out of people for the sole reason that they were walking on the streets? What is the proof that you require when we're talking about the current president? What constitutes proof? A conviction in court?...then, Iliescu is innocent even though the common knowledge in this country IS (notice the caps) that he and a few others were responsible for those atrocities in the early 90s. A mere Google search reveals more than 20 newspapers supporting the claim that he was somewhat involved in shady business with children - heck there are even filmed investigations with multiple people/families claiming on camera that he glued the offer with the demand.
- bad_user 6y ago
  > Can you give me proof that Iliescu called the miners into Bucharest twice after the fall of Ceausescu and beat the shit out of people for the sole reason that they were walking on the streets? Yes, because he did that on national television, congratulating the miners afterwards for their civic spirit. Really poor analogy btw.
  - chimen 6y ago
    > Really poor analogy btw I'm not surprised. How about the house he just lost in Brasov's court which concluded it was acquired with fake documents? I know: "Shitty court"
    - bad_user 6y ago
      Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence dude, this is obvious. But fact of the matter is you made an allegation that is not supported by evidence. If we are talking about what constitutes proof, I can tell what isn't proof ... proof isn't a link from a journal guilty of yellow journalism and of spreading false news, that doesn't cite any credible source, an article written just before the presidential elections from 2014, an obvious hit piece. Don't link to such junk and I won't pick on you for doing so.
      - trumbler 6y ago
        I just love it when there is so much crime and corruption in Romania, that people dont argue over complex topics - they argue over who is the least criminal.
        bad_user 6y ago
        That's not what I'm arguing for.
        trumbler 6y ago

blueboo 6y ago

> The foreign adoption lobby was so powerful... One of those statements that makes an eyebrow go suborbital

zuppy 6y ago

why have we started downvoting the comments we don’t like? how does this improve the quality of the discussion? all he said is true, there were children “purchased” by families that really wanted them. is this ok? they do have a much better life, most of them at least, but are we ok with buying people just because it’s for the good? i honestly don’t know the answer as i have no data regarding what happened with them afterwards (i really hope they got into good families). and please don’t be a pedant, i am well aware that they had no price tags, but they have been adopted through bribe and political influence.

triyambakam 6y ago
> why have we started downvoting the comments we don’t like? Something about human nature...? there is a downvote button there and it feels empowering (?) and satisfying (?) to see someone you disagree with go grey
RealityVoid 6y ago
> but are we ok with buying people just because it’s for the good? I will tell you my simple answer for this: Yes. If in the end the results are better for humanity as whole, I can tell you, I, personally, am fine with buying people for money and even with other, even LESS moral means. I think we should not let our sense of morality stay in the way of what could improve things. I know it sound horrible, heartless and imoral, but there are plenty of cases along history when taking the moral high ground led to worse outcomes for everyone involved. I will tell you the reason why he's downvoted. His talking points were based on mostly nationalistic sentiment and used as a talking point in the Romanian elections and politics for a LONG time and by a lot of self-interested people. There is a lot of background to the national context here that's hard to explain, but for example, last 2 election cycles, our current president, Klaus Johannis, was being painted by the opposition as a child trafficker because sometime in the 90's assisted with an adoption of a child by a canadian couple. They tried paining him as a child trafficker and promoting obvious lies, such that the children were sold so that they would harvest their organs. Really egregious stuff. They basically fan the flames of the "us, the great Romania" against the "evil and manipulative West that is holding us down" that was planted _very_ deep in the Romania psyche by the communist regime. I assume most downvotes came from Romanians, of witch, I assume, there are many more on HN than one would believe.

trumbler 6y ago

Yet Romanians love their current president - i yet have to understand why such preference for criminal leaders in that country. Is it a reflection of the Romanian society? Scamming, petty crime, corruption, and generally speaking cheating are so common that it seems like selling babies for profit doesn't even bother people. Apparently human trafficking is nowadays done with the help of local authorities, and Romanians barely care about it.