4 ms·

So nice for the people of Basecamp to be fighting the good fight for everyone and the small developers. It’s not like they were perfectly fine with the system a

by mns 6y ago

So nice for the people of Basecamp to be fighting the good fight for everyone and the small developers. It’s not like they were perfectly fine with the system as long as it didn’t affect them, being one of the “famous” companies out there, while independent developers and small start-ups had to deal with this for years and years. I was excited about hey before, and even though I don’t agree and don’t like the way the App Store works, I find Hey and the superstars behind it so hypocritical and annoying now. It’s funny how we hate here AMP and other technologies that are killing the open web, but we’re fine with a closed email system that locks you in Basecamp’s walled garden.

bsaul 6y ago
I suppose you’re not affected by app store policies. Otherwise you’d be extremely grateful to DHH to step up and fight publicly, instead of trying to deal with apple in private or just cave in. It has never felt so close to actually breaking up apple tight grip on its developer community, and it’s all thanks to him.
- mns 6y ago
  Because they are being ridiculous already. It’s one thing to help developers and try to bring up their stories and issues with the App Store, it’s another thing to come up with ridiculous examples (Tesla, banking apps, AirBnB and so on, that have nothing to to with SaaS, subscriptions and IAP) and this insane campaign for their own product.
  - lifty 6y ago
    What about Netflix and Amazon? Those examples seem very valid to me.
    - hejja 6y ago
      I interpreted the "reader app" definition in their policy as: either - app value is content driven (netflix) OR - data-driven (bloomberg) OR - or physical (airbnb, amazon) in cases where you could say, the client is the "main driver of value" they are pretty consistent. take a game, for example -- or hey's proprietary filtering system. that said, I don't agree with 30%, jsut my understanding
  - judofyr 6y ago
    It should be noted that this website is not created by Basecamp, but is a personal project by someone else. Yes, they are giving Hey free marketing, but this is not an official attempt at marketing Hey.
hakcermani 6y ago
.. haha true, one walled garden at a time ! Maybe Hey will do the right thing and let you export out the email, whenever you wish .. as json or txt !
- phaedryx 6y ago
  https://hey.com/faqs/#if-i-don-t-like-hey-can-i-export-my-email-and-contacts https://hey.com/faqs/#if-i-don-t-like-hey-can-i-export-my-em...
  - detaro 6y ago
    The redirect offer is also nice to see. Kudos to them for that.
judofyr 6y ago
> I was excited about hey before, and even though I don’t agree and don’t like the way the App Store works, I find Hey and the superstars behind it so hypocritical and annoying now. I don't understand this sentiment. You don't like the way the App Store works and a company comes along and is willing to fight against Apple for it, and then you start disliking them? Why are they hypocritical? They are pointing out flaws and being loud about them. Yes, I am aware that it's because it aligns with their financial/strategical interests, but ultimately it's a good thing that they are pressuring Apple, no? > It’s not like they were perfectly fine with the system as long as it didn’t affect them, being one of the “famous” companies out there, while independent developers and small start-ups had to deal with this for years and years. What about Netflix, GitHub and all of other companies who are able to get away. They are apparently big enough that Apple cares about them to bend the rules; why aren't we annoyed that they're not willing to stand up for other developers as well? They certainly should have some way of pressuring Apple. > It’s funny how we hate here AMP and other technologies that are killing the open web, but we’re fine with a closed email system that locks you in Basecamp’s walled garden. How is Hey "a closed email system"? It sends and receives emails using SMTP. Closed source email clients is far from a new invention and
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  > How is Hey "a closed email system"? It sends and receives emails using SMTP. Closed source email clients is far from a new invention and It intentionally doesn't support IMAP, so exporting email is tricky/impossible. Whether or not you care is another thing entirely.
- donarb 6y ago
  The client doesn't use SMTP, you send your email to their server, probably using a json payload. They then send it for you over SMTP. Since the client doesn't use SMTP or POP/IMAP, you can't use Hey with a traditional email program, you must use their client.
  - dan-robertson 6y ago
    I think that’s the whole point though. SMTP/POP/IMAP are pretty bad protocols, especially for mobile. Also they imply that the email client/server have to work in certain ways but hey! Want it to work in different ways
jedieaston 6y ago
I mean, they give you MBOX export and forwarding forever even if you stop paying them. What else would you want them to do? The feature stack would be impossible to implement on IMAP, and all of the features would have to be exposed in every client anyway. They are trying to change the paradigm for people who hate how email works today, and I don't think that'd work if they said "Okay, first, add this new address to Mail on your iPhone. Cool. Now if you go on our website you'll get a great email experience." (With that being said, there's no reason they couldn't publish an API so someone else could write a client...)
1123581321 6y ago
They weren’t fine. They spoke against Google, Facebook and Apple last year in front of Congress. https://exponentsmag.org/2020/02/11/antitrust-for-thee-profits-for-me/ https://exponentsmag.org/2020/02/11/antitrust-for-thee-profi...
- screwycaboose 6y ago
  Last year in front of Congress (while actively developing this new product). They never mentioned it despite Basecamp being in the app store for years and paying Apple $0. The "oh my this is shocking and unfair" act is all a ruse. They've been well aware of this since the onset, they even copied Netflix's app text so they can feign "see we're just like them!" despite knowing they're not.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    Last week, effectively every iOS developer would have looked at their implementation and predicted App Store approval. It’s important to understand that because if you just read Apple’s rejection letter (you’ve read it as you repeated a talking point from it), you might think Apple was just clarifying a rule familiar to app developers.

by mns 6y ago

bsaul 6y ago

I suppose you’re not affected by app store policies. Otherwise you’d be extremely grateful to DHH to step up and fight publicly, instead of trying to deal with apple in private or just cave in. It has never felt so close to actually breaking up apple tight grip on its developer community, and it’s all thanks to him.

mns 6y ago
Because they are being ridiculous already. It’s one thing to help developers and try to bring up their stories and issues with the App Store, it’s another thing to come up with ridiculous examples (Tesla, banking apps, AirBnB and so on, that have nothing to to with SaaS, subscriptions and IAP) and this insane campaign for their own product.
- lifty 6y ago
  What about Netflix and Amazon? Those examples seem very valid to me.
  - hejja 6y ago
    I interpreted the "reader app" definition in their policy as: either - app value is content driven (netflix) OR - data-driven (bloomberg) OR - or physical (airbnb, amazon) in cases where you could say, the client is the "main driver of value" they are pretty consistent. take a game, for example -- or hey's proprietary filtering system. that said, I don't agree with 30%, jsut my understanding
- judofyr 6y ago
  It should be noted that this website is not created by Basecamp, but is a personal project by someone else. Yes, they are giving Hey free marketing, but this is not an official attempt at marketing Hey.

hakcermani 6y ago

.. haha true, one walled garden at a time ! Maybe Hey will do the right thing and let you export out the email, whenever you wish .. as json or txt !

phaedryx 6y ago
https://hey.com/faqs/#if-i-don-t-like-hey-can-i-export-my-email-and-contacts https://hey.com/faqs/#if-i-don-t-like-hey-can-i-export-my-em...
- detaro 6y ago
  The redirect offer is also nice to see. Kudos to them for that.

judofyr 6y ago

> I was excited about hey before, and even though I don’t agree and don’t like the way the App Store works, I find Hey and the superstars behind it so hypocritical and annoying now. I don't understand this sentiment. You don't like the way the App Store works and a company comes along and is willing to fight against Apple for it, and then you start disliking them? Why are they hypocritical? They are pointing out flaws and being loud about them. Yes, I am aware that it's because it aligns with their financial/strategical interests, but ultimately it's a good thing that they are pressuring Apple, no? > It’s not like they were perfectly fine with the system as long as it didn’t affect them, being one of the “famous” companies out there, while independent developers and small start-ups had to deal with this for years and years. What about Netflix, GitHub and all of other companies who are able to get away. They are apparently big enough that Apple cares about them to bend the rules; why aren't we annoyed that they're not willing to stand up for other developers as well? They certainly should have some way of pressuring Apple. > It’s funny how we hate here AMP and other technologies that are killing the open web, but we’re fine with a closed email system that locks you in Basecamp’s walled garden. How is Hey "a closed email system"? It sends and receives emails using SMTP. Closed source email clients is far from a new invention and

joshuamorton 6y ago
> How is Hey "a closed email system"? It sends and receives emails using SMTP. Closed source email clients is far from a new invention and It intentionally doesn't support IMAP, so exporting email is tricky/impossible. Whether or not you care is another thing entirely.
donarb 6y ago
The client doesn't use SMTP, you send your email to their server, probably using a json payload. They then send it for you over SMTP. Since the client doesn't use SMTP or POP/IMAP, you can't use Hey with a traditional email program, you must use their client.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I think that’s the whole point though. SMTP/POP/IMAP are pretty bad protocols, especially for mobile. Also they imply that the email client/server have to work in certain ways but hey! Want it to work in different ways

jedieaston 6y ago

I mean, they give you MBOX export and forwarding forever even if you stop paying them. What else would you want them to do? The feature stack would be impossible to implement on IMAP, and all of the features would have to be exposed in every client anyway. They are trying to change the paradigm for people who hate how email works today, and I don't think that'd work if they said "Okay, first, add this new address to Mail on your iPhone. Cool. Now if you go on our website you'll get a great email experience." (With that being said, there's no reason they couldn't publish an API so someone else could write a client...)

1123581321 6y ago

They weren’t fine. They spoke against Google, Facebook and Apple last year in front of Congress. https://exponentsmag.org/2020/02/11/antitrust-for-thee-profits-for-me/ https://exponentsmag.org/2020/02/11/antitrust-for-thee-profi...

screwycaboose 6y ago
Last year in front of Congress (while actively developing this new product). They never mentioned it despite Basecamp being in the app store for years and paying Apple $0. The "oh my this is shocking and unfair" act is all a ruse. They've been well aware of this since the onset, they even copied Netflix's app text so they can feign "see we're just like them!" despite knowing they're not.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Last week, effectively every iOS developer would have looked at their implementation and predicted App Store approval. It’s important to understand that because if you just read Apple’s rejection letter (you’ve read it as you repeated a talking point from it), you might think Apple was just clarifying a rule familiar to app developers.