11 ms·

Oh, how the tables have turned! I still remember Microsoft's chokehold on the entire industry in the 1990s, their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy, an

by jwr 6y ago

Oh, how the tables have turned! I still remember Microsoft's chokehold on the entire industry in the 1990s, their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy, and nearly total monopoly. Now the wolf is an advocate for the sheep :-)

bob33212 6y ago
And 20 years from now APPL could be lobbying to end a different monopoly that they don't benefit from
- gear54rus 6y ago
  Hopefully by then people in general would be smart enough not to buy closed down crap that makes monopolies possible. Replies like yours and another sibling ( hoorayimhelping) do put that hope into my heart.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    That locked down crap made it possible for the non English literate and non computer literate to have a consistent experience video calling their loved ones (FaceTime) and use WhatsApp and browse the internet on iOS Safari without worrying about clicking on malware links, and that was as of at least 7+ years ago. Although, I am questioning the utility of WhatsApp as they seem to be particularly fond of forwarding absolute garbage on WhatsApp.
    - gear54rus 6y ago
      Think this wouldn't be possible without the locked down part? It is far from a necessary evil IMO.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        If it is, no one has done it yet. If someone manages to, I’d love to jump to a non locked down system.
        gear54rus 6y ago
        And it's entirely our fault, as I said in my first comment. Had we collectively refused to buy locked down crap, they (or their competition) would bend over backwards to open it all up.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I did refuse at first, and tried Android and Windows and whatnot. And I wasted too much of my time trying to figure it out. At the end of the day, I need to spend more of my time living life and less troubleshooting. Unfortunately, I don't know if a non lock down system is possible. The incentives for bad actors and the attack surface is so huge, I wonder what can be done.
        sergeykish 6y ago
        Nokia Maemo, Openmoko, webOS, Firefox OS - outshined by locked down crap. Pulling resources out (no place for third contender). It is hard to beat advertisement machine by powerful organization with unlimited resources which utilize small window opportunity gain monopoly. There is nothing magical about Steve Jobs and iPhone, it was obvious so much that design was tried again and again through decade. Today - PinePhone, Librem.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Investing tons of money into developing a physical retail preference where people can go to if they have issues might not be magical, but it certainly is a difference maker. I don’t want to troubleshoot my older relatives tech issues, I just point them to the apple store. Time is worth a lot. As far as I can tell, only Apple wanted to invest in this route. Nokia, Google, Microsoft all have tons of cash, but no one wants to invest it into low ROI high liability physical retail options. Nokia was perfectly okay letting the mobile carriers and their uneducated minimum wage staff deal with customer service. Apple decided to invest in customer service. Also, all of this migration to smartphones happened in 2010 to 2014. If other companies had invested as much as Apple into the user experience (including what you do when you have a problem), maybe they would be in their position.
userbinator 6y ago
I still remember Microsoft's chokehold on the entire industry in the 1990s, their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy, and nearly total monopoly. But even during those times, you were still free to install/mod whatever you wanted on your computer, and even now it is (just barely) possible with Windows. Apple has always been far more controlling than Microsoft, although the latter is slowly moving in that direction too. Maybe this is finally a welcome change in direction, but I doubt it...
- jdxcode 6y ago
  I agree with you in terms of iOS but macOS is super easy to run custom software on. I might have to click a security box for non-notarized apps (but not CLI tools) but I don’t see that as a bad thing. When it comes to permission dialogs Windows has always been worse IMO
  - DeusExMachina 6y ago
    I would not characterize that as just "clicking a security box for non-notarized apps". A few days ago I downloaded a non-notarized app. The dialog that I saw baffled me and it took me a while to recall how to run a non-notarized app. You have to right-click on it and clock on "open", something that should be equivalent to double-clicking, but isn't. That's harder than clicking a security box. Someone with no knowledge might never find out how to run these apps.
    - jdxcode 6y ago
      We could debate the appropriate level of friction for running this class of software, but GP said: > Apple has always been far more controlling than Microsoft Notarization came out with Catalina.
      - DeusExMachina 6y ago
        I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying it's harder than checking a box.
makomk 6y ago
I also remember their much more recent attempt to funnel Windows app purchases through their own app store and take their own 30% cut via Windows 10 S, a version of Windows intended to be pre-installed on cheaper laptops that only allowed apps to be installed from their store. It failed, and that's presumably why they're taking such a strong stance now against the companies that succeeded in this business model.
- tasogare 6y ago
  They always failed on mobile where the 30% were also in practice.
rvz 6y ago
Exactly this. I've also highlighted this eloquently in a previous post. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564759
netcan 6y ago
The lesson to learn here is that these organisational values are mostly the result of market positions, not morals.
hoorayimhelping 6y ago
Fuck Microsoft. I recently updated Windows and had to go through an unskippable ad for Edge. After the ad, I had to go through an unskippable setup process for Edge, even though I don't use it. After I got through that, I had to tell Edge not to make itself the default browser, unpin it from my start menu, where it was added by Windows, then remove it from desktop, where it was added by Windows. I'm a paying customer, and they're plastering their shit all over my computer, just like they did in the late 90s and early 2000s. Don't be a fool and think Microsoft has changed because they give away VSCode and have added features to Github. This isn't a goodwill measure, it's a lock in measure. They're quietly trying to lock in engineers into their platform, just like they're trying to keep gamers locked in to their platform. They're trying to look like the scrappy little guy competing against Apple, but this only after their Windows App store has failed to do anything. They wait until their hand busts before tattling - if the Windows store succeeds, they happily go along with it. If it fails, they talk about how great a tragedy it is for the American consumer.
- slezyr 6y ago
  Exactly, people forget that Valve developed SteamOS after Microsoft's shenanigans, when they tried to lockout 3rd party programs i.e. build it's own "app store"
  - skocznymroczny 6y ago
    Valve, the company that almost holds a monopoly on the PC games distribution.
    - godzillabrennus 6y ago
      Epic Game Store and Xbox Game Store for PC are making headway. Epic just gave away amazing games for a month or two. I got GTA5 and Civ6 for free amongst other treasures.
      - Kaze404 6y ago
        It's worth noting that Epic Games isn't really making headway into the market by providing innovation. They're just dumping money into it, making everything worse for Linux users.
macspoofing 6y ago
At no point in Microsoft's history did they have the same sort of chokehold on Windows as Apple has on the iPhone.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  But they once bundled an Internet browser with Windows! /s
- thosewhoteach 6y ago
  You mean outside of that time when they crippled your Windows 7 with perma-nagware so you didn't have any option but to upgrade to Windows 10? https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-ebook/dp/B01IU0A2N6 https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-...
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    Nagware, though annoying, is not in the same universe as the control that Apple has over the iOS ecosystem. To further reinforce the point, you do realize that Apple with nag you endlessly to upgrade your OS (on iPhone and Mac).
danjac 6y ago
True, but as the man said in that Gozilla movie, "let them fight". If MS wants to use its legal power and influence to take on Apple's monopoly, that's fine by me. It will make more of a difference than a legion of indie developers.
cutler 6y ago
Don't forget their Linux patent racket in the 2000s. Hell hath certainly frozen over.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by jwr 6y ago

bob33212 6y ago

And 20 years from now APPL could be lobbying to end a different monopoly that they don't benefit from

gear54rus 6y ago
Hopefully by then people in general would be smart enough not to buy closed down crap that makes monopolies possible. Replies like yours and another sibling ( hoorayimhelping) do put that hope into my heart.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  That locked down crap made it possible for the non English literate and non computer literate to have a consistent experience video calling their loved ones (FaceTime) and use WhatsApp and browse the internet on iOS Safari without worrying about clicking on malware links, and that was as of at least 7+ years ago. Although, I am questioning the utility of WhatsApp as they seem to be particularly fond of forwarding absolute garbage on WhatsApp.
  - gear54rus 6y ago
    Think this wouldn't be possible without the locked down part? It is far from a necessary evil IMO.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      If it is, no one has done it yet. If someone manages to, I’d love to jump to a non locked down system.
      - gear54rus 6y ago
        And it's entirely our fault, as I said in my first comment. Had we collectively refused to buy locked down crap, they (or their competition) would bend over backwards to open it all up.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I did refuse at first, and tried Android and Windows and whatnot. And I wasted too much of my time trying to figure it out. At the end of the day, I need to spend more of my time living life and less troubleshooting. Unfortunately, I don't know if a non lock down system is possible. The incentives for bad actors and the attack surface is so huge, I wonder what can be done.
      - sergeykish 6y ago
        Nokia Maemo, Openmoko, webOS, Firefox OS - outshined by locked down crap. Pulling resources out (no place for third contender). It is hard to beat advertisement machine by powerful organization with unlimited resources which utilize small window opportunity gain monopoly. There is nothing magical about Steve Jobs and iPhone, it was obvious so much that design was tried again and again through decade. Today - PinePhone, Librem.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Investing tons of money into developing a physical retail preference where people can go to if they have issues might not be magical, but it certainly is a difference maker. I don’t want to troubleshoot my older relatives tech issues, I just point them to the apple store. Time is worth a lot. As far as I can tell, only Apple wanted to invest in this route. Nokia, Google, Microsoft all have tons of cash, but no one wants to invest it into low ROI high liability physical retail options. Nokia was perfectly okay letting the mobile carriers and their uneducated minimum wage staff deal with customer service. Apple decided to invest in customer service. Also, all of this migration to smartphones happened in 2010 to 2014. If other companies had invested as much as Apple into the user experience (including what you do when you have a problem), maybe they would be in their position.

userbinator 6y ago

I still remember Microsoft's chokehold on the entire industry in the 1990s, their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy, and nearly total monopoly. But even during those times, you were still free to install/mod whatever you wanted on your computer, and even now it is (just barely) possible with Windows. Apple has always been far more controlling than Microsoft, although the latter is slowly moving in that direction too. Maybe this is finally a welcome change in direction, but I doubt it...

jdxcode 6y ago
I agree with you in terms of iOS but macOS is super easy to run custom software on. I might have to click a security box for non-notarized apps (but not CLI tools) but I don’t see that as a bad thing. When it comes to permission dialogs Windows has always been worse IMO
- DeusExMachina 6y ago
  I would not characterize that as just "clicking a security box for non-notarized apps". A few days ago I downloaded a non-notarized app. The dialog that I saw baffled me and it took me a while to recall how to run a non-notarized app. You have to right-click on it and clock on "open", something that should be equivalent to double-clicking, but isn't. That's harder than clicking a security box. Someone with no knowledge might never find out how to run these apps.
  - jdxcode 6y ago
    We could debate the appropriate level of friction for running this class of software, but GP said: > Apple has always been far more controlling than Microsoft Notarization came out with Catalina.
    - DeusExMachina 6y ago
      I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying it's harder than checking a box.

makomk 6y ago

I also remember their much more recent attempt to funnel Windows app purchases through their own app store and take their own 30% cut via Windows 10 S, a version of Windows intended to be pre-installed on cheaper laptops that only allowed apps to be installed from their store. It failed, and that's presumably why they're taking such a strong stance now against the companies that succeeded in this business model.

tasogare 6y ago
They always failed on mobile where the 30% were also in practice.

rvz 6y ago

Exactly this. I've also highlighted this eloquently in a previous post. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564759

netcan 6y ago

The lesson to learn here is that these organisational values are mostly the result of market positions, not morals.

hoorayimhelping 6y ago

Fuck Microsoft. I recently updated Windows and had to go through an unskippable ad for Edge. After the ad, I had to go through an unskippable setup process for Edge, even though I don't use it. After I got through that, I had to tell Edge not to make itself the default browser, unpin it from my start menu, where it was added by Windows, then remove it from desktop, where it was added by Windows. I'm a paying customer, and they're plastering their shit all over my computer, just like they did in the late 90s and early 2000s. Don't be a fool and think Microsoft has changed because they give away VSCode and have added features to Github. This isn't a goodwill measure, it's a lock in measure. They're quietly trying to lock in engineers into their platform, just like they're trying to keep gamers locked in to their platform. They're trying to look like the scrappy little guy competing against Apple, but this only after their Windows App store has failed to do anything. They wait until their hand busts before tattling - if the Windows store succeeds, they happily go along with it. If it fails, they talk about how great a tragedy it is for the American consumer.

slezyr 6y ago
Exactly, people forget that Valve developed SteamOS after Microsoft's shenanigans, when they tried to lockout 3rd party programs i.e. build it's own "app store"
- skocznymroczny 6y ago
  Valve, the company that almost holds a monopoly on the PC games distribution.
  - godzillabrennus 6y ago
    Epic Game Store and Xbox Game Store for PC are making headway. Epic just gave away amazing games for a month or two. I got GTA5 and Civ6 for free amongst other treasures.
    - Kaze404 6y ago
      It's worth noting that Epic Games isn't really making headway into the market by providing innovation. They're just dumping money into it, making everything worse for Linux users.

macspoofing 6y ago

At no point in Microsoft's history did they have the same sort of chokehold on Windows as Apple has on the iPhone.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
But they once bundled an Internet browser with Windows! /s
thosewhoteach 6y ago
You mean outside of that time when they crippled your Windows 7 with perma-nagware so you didn't have any option but to upgrade to Windows 10? https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-ebook/dp/B01IU0A2N6 https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-...
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Nagware, though annoying, is not in the same universe as the control that Apple has over the iOS ecosystem. To further reinforce the point, you do realize that Apple with nag you endlessly to upgrade your OS (on iPhone and Mac).

danjac 6y ago

True, but as the man said in that Gozilla movie, "let them fight". If MS wants to use its legal power and influence to take on Apple's monopoly, that's fine by me. It will make more of a difference than a legion of indie developers.

cutler 6y ago

Don't forget their Linux patent racket in the 2000s. Hell hath certainly frozen over.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]