19 ms·

Bees Can Sense the Electric Fields of Flowers (2013)

99 points by EndXA 6y ago

9214 6y ago
I urge everyone interested in similar topics (bioelectricity and natural electromagnetic phenomena) to grab a copy of Becker's 'Body Electric', it's a fascinating book.
- 7373737373 6y ago
  Also this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg (What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System - NeurIPS 2018)
  - 9214 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing that! This presentation serves as a nice TL;DR of the book. I am curious if there's a palpable bio-inspired computational model based on these discoveries. [1] and [2] in general come to mind. [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220687776_Robustness_to_Code_and_Data_Deletion_in_Autocatalytic_Quines https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220687776_Robustnes... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing
    - 7373737373 6y ago
      These links are very interesting, thank you! I haven't heard of the term autonomic computing before. Software systems are so far from achieving properties of life such as homeostasis...
istorical 6y ago
so what is the over / under on the chance that in 100 years we look back on the 19-21st century phenomenon of blanketing every centimeter of the planet with anthropomorphic electromagnetic radiation of varying wavelgenths and just assume there are no negative downstream effects the same way we look at Romans drinking from corroded lead pipes
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Not impossible but what's the mechanism? Humans haven't changed too much but societally we now have a much better understanding of systematically understanding new phenomenon. If there was something like Lead Poisoning going around, information spreads so quickly we'd know about it. That doesn't mean there isn't anything, but there have been people living and working around extremely strong sources of electromagnetic radiation ever since the 1930s and no one has been able to demonstrate risk on any macroscopic scale (There are some papers that do demonstrate a "statistically significant" detectable link between something an EM exposure, but - even when the levels are anywhere near safety limits let alone what is actually outside - these papers can never find any measurable risk to the body). The fact that nothing has been formally observed as of today establishes a fairly firm upper bound on the risk due to electromagnetic radiation. That upper bound means that if there is any actual risk it is sufficiently subtle as to either be outpaced by the body or other issues (Even if 5G harmed people, based on the mentioned upper bound, it would still be better to telecommute than have cars polluting everywhere)
  - freeflight 6y ago
    > If there was something like Lead Poisoning going around, information spreads so quickly we'd know about it. If said lead poisoning was profitable, then we'd mostly be busy belittling the negative effects for decades, until they couldn't be denied/ignored anymore, at which point most of the damage will already have been done, as it happened with tetraethyllead [0]. Another example would be the massive money in tobacco and how for decades this allowed certain profit-interests to dictate the public-health discourse around smoking it or how oil companies knew about their impact on climate change for decades before it became a widely-recognized problem [1]. There is no telling what other things that we consider "harmless" now will later turn out as having absolutely disastrous effects. Very similar to how people living in Victorian times filled their homes with all kinds of deadly things because they were considered convenient at the time [2]. With the luxury of hindsight, it's easy for us to go "Wow, people back then were kinda stupid", but I have no doubt that 100-200 years from now people will look at our current ways of living and come to very similar conclusions about us. To keep this on-topic: Maybe us blasting the environment with EM radiation is also a contributing factor bee colonies collapsing, as it might make it more difficult for bees to find their source of nutrition? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#History [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_cont... [2] https://youtu.be/K3Jef7i7v1U https://youtu.be/K3Jef7i7v1U
filoeleven 6y ago
And some flowers can hear the bees coming, so they sweeten their nectar! https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/flowers-sweeten-when-they-hear-bees-buzzing-180971300/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/flowers-sweeten-wh...
L_226 6y ago
I wonder if this is related to colony collapse disorder [0] somehow. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder
- amelius 6y ago
  Electricity has been around for quite some time now, so my guess would be: no. But perhaps it's a combination of factors.
- kavalg 6y ago
  Can't be ruled out, but I would first look at (improper) pesticide use and monoculture. At least this is the general observation in my beekeeping community. We noticed a gradual decline in colonies since the local farmers started growing rapeseed for biodiesel about 7-8 years ago. It has only gotten worse recently. Apart from the intensive use of pesticides, compared to other plants, one other problem that I face with rapeseed, is that the honey crystallizes really fast. If such honey is left in the hive during winter, its a sure recipe for failure. Even in the summer, it creates some irregularities in the food supply (I've seen bees taking it out of the combs after crystallization).
Gnarl 6y ago
Literature suggestions for those interested in this fascinating topic: 1). https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279863242_Oxidative_mechanisms_of_biological_activity_of_low-intensity_radiofrequency_radiation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279863242_Oxidative... 2). https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14914 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14914 3). https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368379109031410 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1536837910903141...

99 points by EndXA 6y ago

9214 6y ago

I urge everyone interested in similar topics (bioelectricity and natural electromagnetic phenomena) to grab a copy of Becker's 'Body Electric', it's a fascinating book.

7373737373 6y ago
Also this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg (What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System - NeurIPS 2018)
- 9214 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing that! This presentation serves as a nice TL;DR of the book. I am curious if there's a palpable bio-inspired computational model based on these discoveries. [1] and [2] in general come to mind. [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220687776_Robustness_to_Code_and_Data_Deletion_in_Autocatalytic_Quines https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220687776_Robustnes... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing
  - 7373737373 6y ago
    These links are very interesting, thank you! I haven't heard of the term autonomic computing before. Software systems are so far from achieving properties of life such as homeostasis...

istorical 6y ago

so what is the over / under on the chance that in 100 years we look back on the 19-21st century phenomenon of blanketing every centimeter of the planet with anthropomorphic electromagnetic radiation of varying wavelgenths and just assume there are no negative downstream effects the same way we look at Romans drinking from corroded lead pipes

mhh__ 6y ago
Not impossible but what's the mechanism? Humans haven't changed too much but societally we now have a much better understanding of systematically understanding new phenomenon. If there was something like Lead Poisoning going around, information spreads so quickly we'd know about it. That doesn't mean there isn't anything, but there have been people living and working around extremely strong sources of electromagnetic radiation ever since the 1930s and no one has been able to demonstrate risk on any macroscopic scale (There are some papers that do demonstrate a "statistically significant" detectable link between something an EM exposure, but - even when the levels are anywhere near safety limits let alone what is actually outside - these papers can never find any measurable risk to the body). The fact that nothing has been formally observed as of today establishes a fairly firm upper bound on the risk due to electromagnetic radiation. That upper bound means that if there is any actual risk it is sufficiently subtle as to either be outpaced by the body or other issues (Even if 5G harmed people, based on the mentioned upper bound, it would still be better to telecommute than have cars polluting everywhere)
- freeflight 6y ago
  > If there was something like Lead Poisoning going around, information spreads so quickly we'd know about it. If said lead poisoning was profitable, then we'd mostly be busy belittling the negative effects for decades, until they couldn't be denied/ignored anymore, at which point most of the damage will already have been done, as it happened with tetraethyllead [0]. Another example would be the massive money in tobacco and how for decades this allowed certain profit-interests to dictate the public-health discourse around smoking it or how oil companies knew about their impact on climate change for decades before it became a widely-recognized problem [1]. There is no telling what other things that we consider "harmless" now will later turn out as having absolutely disastrous effects. Very similar to how people living in Victorian times filled their homes with all kinds of deadly things because they were considered convenient at the time [2]. With the luxury of hindsight, it's easy for us to go "Wow, people back then were kinda stupid", but I have no doubt that 100-200 years from now people will look at our current ways of living and come to very similar conclusions about us. To keep this on-topic: Maybe us blasting the environment with EM radiation is also a contributing factor bee colonies collapsing, as it might make it more difficult for bees to find their source of nutrition? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#History [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_cont... [2] https://youtu.be/K3Jef7i7v1U https://youtu.be/K3Jef7i7v1U

filoeleven 6y ago

And some flowers can hear the bees coming, so they sweeten their nectar! https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/flowers-sweeten-when-they-hear-bees-buzzing-180971300/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/flowers-sweeten-wh...

L_226 6y ago

I wonder if this is related to colony collapse disorder [0] somehow. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder

amelius 6y ago
Electricity has been around for quite some time now, so my guess would be: no. But perhaps it's a combination of factors.
kavalg 6y ago
Can't be ruled out, but I would first look at (improper) pesticide use and monoculture. At least this is the general observation in my beekeeping community. We noticed a gradual decline in colonies since the local farmers started growing rapeseed for biodiesel about 7-8 years ago. It has only gotten worse recently. Apart from the intensive use of pesticides, compared to other plants, one other problem that I face with rapeseed, is that the honey crystallizes really fast. If such honey is left in the hive during winter, its a sure recipe for failure. Even in the summer, it creates some irregularities in the food supply (I've seen bees taking it out of the combs after crystallization).

Gnarl 6y ago

Literature suggestions for those interested in this fascinating topic: 1). https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279863242_Oxidative_mechanisms_of_biological_activity_of_low-intensity_radiofrequency_radiation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279863242_Oxidative... 2). https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14914 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14914 3). https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368379109031410 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1536837910903141...