10 ms·

This kind of post infuriates me. As an iOS developer for 10 years, i can guarantee you that there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of stories like that,

by bsaul 6y ago

This kind of post infuriates me. As an iOS developer for 10 years, i can guarantee you that there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of stories like that, with people getting shut down for no good reason, and having their business killed. It's now so bad people are refraining from trying out innovative business model or apps just because they think there could be a chance someone at apple validation wouldn't like it and kill the product at any time. I wish the Hey story makes people realize it is not reasonable to have one actor control the only software distribution channel to hundred of millions of customers. I'm fine with apple wanting to provide a highly curated experience to their users by having them download apps from a store they control. But this shouldn't be the only option.

0-O-0 6y ago
I wish the Hey story makes people realise that we can't depend on benevolence of two corporations and should be working on open platforms.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  Open platforms are great (and they are, I say this as a Fedora user who just finished an install via dnf'ing all the things) but they lack the money which translates to marketing that large corporations have, it's not a case of a level playing field, we are playing two different games on entirely different fields and ours is mostly uphill. When your opposition has an absolute chokehold on major markets it's a near unassailable position - throw in that the vast vast majority of users simply don't care whether an app store is open or not or know why they should care - attention is finite and the only way things will improve is if governments lead it and well see my earlier paragraph about who has the money...
  - 0-O-0 6y ago
    Apple and Google are not primordial forces. At some point they've started small and had to compete/coexist with IBM, Yahoo etc. There are still emerging markets and space for innovation. And next innovation might be based on something open, like Ubuntu Touch.
echelon 6y ago
If Apple doesn't back down, they should be broken up by the DOJ into a phone/hardware company and an iOS/Mac/Services company. The same should happen to Google with search, Chrome, and Android. You can't use dozens of entire markets as your product moat.
- bsaul 6y ago
  i generally agree (and the same goes for amazon). But let's not mix everything, otherwise we'll get no result. I believe there is a real momentum at the moment on the "app store" issue, and we should focus 100% on that until we get some result (then we'll move to the next one). I hope it's not going to be a talk about which commission rate is fair, because it completely misses the point. If apple wants to charge 30% commission for being able to distribute on the store, use their development tools, their apis, and have people pay using apple, fine. But just let my customers free to install my software on the hardware they own the way they want to.
  - StanislavPetrov 6y ago
    Its not about commission rate, its about market share. We should be breaking up every corporation that gets anything close to 50% of market share if we are going to pretend that we live in a "free market" system.
  - puszczyk 6y ago
    > let my customers .. install my software .. the way want to I generally agree with the sentiment as a developer. As I user I never want to side load an app though. I’m afraid this will e.g. allow my bank to develop a shitty app bypassing the permission model and ask / force me to install it. I prefer to know even “strong” entities need to play by the sandbox rules.
    - ryukafalz 6y ago
      Just because you can sideload doesn’t mean apps can just be unconfined; if you sideload an Android app for example, it’s still restricted by the OS sandbox and still has to prompt you for access to contacts, location, etc. And as an aside: you can sideload apps on Android. Have you seen any banks try to convince users to sideload their app? I sure haven’t.
AsyncAwait 6y ago
That's why I've ditched all of my Apple hardware and went 100% FLOSS years ago. The experience is polished enough for me as a developer to do what I need to do and after I set it up just the way I wanted it, no other setup can touch how productive I am on my Arch setup. I've recently got the PinePhone in and while actual Linux on smartphones is very early, it's also an opportunity to have some real impact. I'll never go back to a walled garden, no matter how appealing it may seem from the outside.
- noch 6y ago
  > That's why I've ditched all of my Apple hardware and went 100% FLOSS years ago. The experience is polished enough for me as a developer to do what I need to do and after I set it up just the way I wanted it, no other setup can touch how productive I am on my Arch setup. For the majority of users, this is irrelevant because linux is unusable for them. And they are the customers. To have a sustainable business, we have to target the platforms that paying customers use. That platform is not gnu/linux.
  - jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
    Selling software to users? Did you time travel from 1999 or something?
    - FakeRemore 6y ago
      1) There are plenty of paid apps: https://appfigures.com/top-apps/ios-app-store/united-states/iphone/top-overall https://appfigures.com/top-apps/ios-app-store/united-states/... 2) Taking his argument in good faith, he also means "free" apps with microtransactions, because in both cases the same situation exists: The iOS App Store is too big a market to ignore. Which leads to the same problem, regardless of whether your app is paid or "free", that if Apple suddenly decides it doesn't like you, you're screwed.
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        It's worth pointing out that you can absolutely sell software to Linux users i.e. I pay for all JetBrains software and recently purchased Ripcord[1]. What I've noticed on macOS however, is that is a lot easier to sell things that should be bundled or FLOSS for relatively serious money. For example there are dozens of rather expensive "Finder replacements" on macOS and you'll have a hard time selling something proprietary like that to Linux users because we do have good file managers that are libre software already. 1 - https://cancel.fm/ripcord https://cancel.fm/ripcord
superasn 6y ago
I say this little tongue in cheek but it's time to make a www.helpXisthreatningme.com (where X is Google play store, Chrome store, Apple store) and I'm sure it will have at least dozens of new stories like this everyday.
- erikrothoff 6y ago
  That’s a fantastic idea. It would also be a great place to collect these voices and get a bigger platform in discussions with the platform owners. Almost like a union of sorts...
mpartel 6y ago
Even if it weren't the only option, the sad reality is that, for most, it'd be financial suicide to not be on the App Store. Compare that to games on PC: even though competition has fortunately started to pick up recently, it'd still be madness not to publish on Steam. All platforms seem to naturally tend towards monopoly, with an enormous first mover advantage. I wish I knew of a solution :/
- worthless-trash 6y ago
  > it'd be financial suicide to not be on the App Store. I find it amusing that people and businesses are willing to put their future in the hands of a company that has historically destroyed anyone who gets enough users on their platform. If this is the best option, I think that the best option would be to actively work with a platform competitor. Do developers have a sense of stockholm syndrome ?
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    What's your alternative, since there isn't any, except to completely change your industry or business model? iOS users are known to pay for apps they like. Android users less so.
    - worthless-trash 6y ago
      You've made up your mind then. Bite down hard, because that whip's coming.
      - ur-whale 6y ago
        > Bite down hard, because that whip's coming. You're thinking of a whip, I'm thinking of another implement
    - thdrdt 6y ago
      The alternative could a webapp. But this all depends on what hardware access you need. In the end it is a choice of business model. Taking the risk of making money while being dependant on one party (Apple, Youtube) is always a huge risk.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
> But this shouldn't be the only option. Switch to Android. You just realized the same reason why I switched 8 years ago. That and consistently raising prices. Apple is doing this to satisfy their never-ending rising stock-price and it will only get worse. Ps. Android exploits are worth more than iOS once now. How times have changed...
rydre 6y ago
>It's now so bad people are refraining from trying out innovative business model or apps just because they think there could be a chance someone at apple validation wouldn't like it and kill the product at any time. This is very true. I know of many people who have legitimate App ideas that would flourish today had it not been the extreme restrictions that Apple and Google is putting on mobile devices. Sadly, I can testify, that Apple and Google are actively putting obstacles in the way of innovation because it hurts their business models.
enriquto 6y ago
> This kind of post infuriates me. Apple's callous "walled garden" practices have always been well known. Honestly, developers who continue to participate in this shitshow had it coming.
- kleiba 6y ago
  I agree, that is a business risk you take. The problem is just that this risk is very difficult to assess and it leaves you very little in term of being able to influence it.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  If you want to create a cross-platform mobile app, you have no choice. In my country, iPhones are ~50% of smartphones. This needs to be regulated.
  - rbrtl 6y ago
    You have the same choice the device users have. It's their right to choose their device, and it's your right to choose which provider you use or don't. It is not your right to reach all those people.
    - pacamara619 6y ago
      There's such a thing as antitrust laws you ancap, they don't even need to have a monopoly.
      - rbrtl 6y ago
        Aha, AnCap = AnarchoCapitalist? Used in the pejorative I assume. You Commie. There's such a thing as a legally binding contract too. You sign one to become an Apple Developer. You don't then bitch about the terms you agreed to when they don't suit. It's called being a grown up in the 21st century.
      - dang 6y ago
        We ban accounts that post like this, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when commenting on HN.
amelius 6y ago
Exactly, this is why I vote with my wallet and don't buy Apple products. Apple's hardware is perhaps only marginally better than the competition's, which by the way is much richer in choice. Developers should look further than Apple. It is better for the profession. Remember: developers : Apple == taxi drivers : Uber
- rbrtl 6y ago
  ...and then not complain when they can't distribute to Apple users. All these whinging developers seem to have forgotten that they made an agreement with Apple which included: "10. Term and Termination. Apple may terminate or suspend you ... at any time in Apple’s sole discretion." Don't like the terms, don't sign the contract. I learned that the hard way at the age of 19, it wasn't in tech, it was a housing contract, but I learned my lesson: Before you agree to anything with legal standing, read it and reread it. Understand it, and if you don't seek help to get that understanding. Once you understand the terms you have to make a choice to agree or walk away. Then you have to live with the consequences. This is the basis of legal justice (as it stands) and much of society relies on it.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  > Apple's hardware is perhaps only marginally better than the competition's Microsoft and other brands are getting better at making quality hardware faster than Apple is innovating in the space. Apple still has the lead in their os just feeling so much nicer and solid to use but again it's still stagnant while windows is slowly evolving and when it comes down to it you can't even build a mac with the power you're working with on the Windows side so it stops really being an option if one means your work can be done multiple times faster (GPGPU workloads for example) than on the Mac side.
  - thomaslord 6y ago
    It definitely also helps that Apple has been churning out laptops with heaps of major issues. In recent years they've had issues with their keyboards, screens, and audio hardware. Plus they don't do any board-level repair or allow anyone else to, so if you're stuck with a dead mainboard outside of the warranty period the solution is basically "say goodbye to your data and buy a new laptop."
bnastic 6y ago
> i can guarantee you that there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of stories like that, with people getting shut down for no good reason, and having their business killed How about Apple telling me they don't like my business bank (a well known UK bank I've been with for 10 years) and simply refusing to set up the account. In a very cold, "go away already", manner. I wasn't going to kill the relationship with my business bank just because Apple told me to, so the app never got onto App Store and I shut down my dev account.
- kungato 6y ago
  OT: why do you care which bank you're in?
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Why would you allow Apple to decide which bank you must use?
    - kungato 6y ago
      My bank doesnt support Google Pay so I switched. Life is full of obstacles but we should go around them and not through them. Only person you hurt in your case is yourself. Or you didn't really want to bother with the whole thing anyway so you stopped at the first issue
      - joshuaissac 6y ago
        The person you replied to is not the same one from the original story. And there are many reasons to prefer one bank to another; in the poster's case, switching to an Apple-supported bank might have introduced more obstacles to go through than it would have avoided.
      - rbecker 6y ago
        > Life is full of obstacles but we should go around them and not through them. Excellent example of short-term thinking. If everyone followed your advice, Google and Apple would be able to extort any bank in the world, until in addition to their software and ad near-monopolies, they'd also have a banking near-monopoly.
ksec 6y ago
>I wish the Hey story makes people realize it is not reasonable to have one actor control the only software distribution channel to hundred of millions of customers. While Apple hasn't officially announced yet, they should have reached 1 Billion Active iPhone user in the past few months. They are just waiting for the moment to make the announcement. The Mission Impossible 5 lines always come up in my head when I read these stories. The App Store, was a hypothetically brainchild of certain people within Apple. Recruit former developers from other platform, supply them with tools, use them to grow the ecosystem and surgically remove our competitors, both at home and abroad. Its operation was to be hidden within Services in a virtual account that Steve alone would control. It would have made him a Judge, Jury and Executioner with zero accountability.

by bsaul 6y ago

0-O-0 6y ago

I wish the Hey story makes people realise that we can't depend on benevolence of two corporations and should be working on open platforms.

noir_lord 6y ago
Open platforms are great (and they are, I say this as a Fedora user who just finished an install via dnf'ing all the things) but they lack the money which translates to marketing that large corporations have, it's not a case of a level playing field, we are playing two different games on entirely different fields and ours is mostly uphill. When your opposition has an absolute chokehold on major markets it's a near unassailable position - throw in that the vast vast majority of users simply don't care whether an app store is open or not or know why they should care - attention is finite and the only way things will improve is if governments lead it and well see my earlier paragraph about who has the money...
- 0-O-0 6y ago
  Apple and Google are not primordial forces. At some point they've started small and had to compete/coexist with IBM, Yahoo etc. There are still emerging markets and space for innovation. And next innovation might be based on something open, like Ubuntu Touch.

echelon 6y ago

If Apple doesn't back down, they should be broken up by the DOJ into a phone/hardware company and an iOS/Mac/Services company. The same should happen to Google with search, Chrome, and Android. You can't use dozens of entire markets as your product moat.

bsaul 6y ago
i generally agree (and the same goes for amazon). But let's not mix everything, otherwise we'll get no result. I believe there is a real momentum at the moment on the "app store" issue, and we should focus 100% on that until we get some result (then we'll move to the next one). I hope it's not going to be a talk about which commission rate is fair, because it completely misses the point. If apple wants to charge 30% commission for being able to distribute on the store, use their development tools, their apis, and have people pay using apple, fine. But just let my customers free to install my software on the hardware they own the way they want to.
- StanislavPetrov 6y ago
  Its not about commission rate, its about market share. We should be breaking up every corporation that gets anything close to 50% of market share if we are going to pretend that we live in a "free market" system.
- puszczyk 6y ago
  > let my customers .. install my software .. the way want to I generally agree with the sentiment as a developer. As I user I never want to side load an app though. I’m afraid this will e.g. allow my bank to develop a shitty app bypassing the permission model and ask / force me to install it. I prefer to know even “strong” entities need to play by the sandbox rules.
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    Just because you can sideload doesn’t mean apps can just be unconfined; if you sideload an Android app for example, it’s still restricted by the OS sandbox and still has to prompt you for access to contacts, location, etc. And as an aside: you can sideload apps on Android. Have you seen any banks try to convince users to sideload their app? I sure haven’t.

AsyncAwait 6y ago

That's why I've ditched all of my Apple hardware and went 100% FLOSS years ago. The experience is polished enough for me as a developer to do what I need to do and after I set it up just the way I wanted it, no other setup can touch how productive I am on my Arch setup. I've recently got the PinePhone in and while actual Linux on smartphones is very early, it's also an opportunity to have some real impact. I'll never go back to a walled garden, no matter how appealing it may seem from the outside.

noch 6y ago
> That's why I've ditched all of my Apple hardware and went 100% FLOSS years ago. The experience is polished enough for me as a developer to do what I need to do and after I set it up just the way I wanted it, no other setup can touch how productive I am on my Arch setup. For the majority of users, this is irrelevant because linux is unusable for them. And they are the customers. To have a sustainable business, we have to target the platforms that paying customers use. That platform is not gnu/linux.
- jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
  Selling software to users? Did you time travel from 1999 or something?
  - FakeRemore 6y ago
    1) There are plenty of paid apps: https://appfigures.com/top-apps/ios-app-store/united-states/iphone/top-overall https://appfigures.com/top-apps/ios-app-store/united-states/... 2) Taking his argument in good faith, he also means "free" apps with microtransactions, because in both cases the same situation exists: The iOS App Store is too big a market to ignore. Which leads to the same problem, regardless of whether your app is paid or "free", that if Apple suddenly decides it doesn't like you, you're screwed.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      It's worth pointing out that you can absolutely sell software to Linux users i.e. I pay for all JetBrains software and recently purchased Ripcord[1]. What I've noticed on macOS however, is that is a lot easier to sell things that should be bundled or FLOSS for relatively serious money. For example there are dozens of rather expensive "Finder replacements" on macOS and you'll have a hard time selling something proprietary like that to Linux users because we do have good file managers that are libre software already. 1 - https://cancel.fm/ripcord https://cancel.fm/ripcord

superasn 6y ago

I say this little tongue in cheek but it's time to make a www.helpXisthreatningme.com (where X is Google play store, Chrome store, Apple store) and I'm sure it will have at least dozens of new stories like this everyday.

erikrothoff 6y ago
That’s a fantastic idea. It would also be a great place to collect these voices and get a bigger platform in discussions with the platform owners. Almost like a union of sorts...

mpartel 6y ago

Even if it weren't the only option, the sad reality is that, for most, it'd be financial suicide to not be on the App Store. Compare that to games on PC: even though competition has fortunately started to pick up recently, it'd still be madness not to publish on Steam. All platforms seem to naturally tend towards monopoly, with an enormous first mover advantage. I wish I knew of a solution :/

worthless-trash 6y ago
> it'd be financial suicide to not be on the App Store. I find it amusing that people and businesses are willing to put their future in the hands of a company that has historically destroyed anyone who gets enough users on their platform. If this is the best option, I think that the best option would be to actively work with a platform competitor. Do developers have a sense of stockholm syndrome ?
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  What's your alternative, since there isn't any, except to completely change your industry or business model? iOS users are known to pay for apps they like. Android users less so.
  - worthless-trash 6y ago
    You've made up your mind then. Bite down hard, because that whip's coming.
    - ur-whale 6y ago
      > Bite down hard, because that whip's coming. You're thinking of a whip, I'm thinking of another implement
  - thdrdt 6y ago
    The alternative could a webapp. But this all depends on what hardware access you need. In the end it is a choice of business model. Taking the risk of making money while being dependant on one party (Apple, Youtube) is always a huge risk.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

> But this shouldn't be the only option. Switch to Android. You just realized the same reason why I switched 8 years ago. That and consistently raising prices. Apple is doing this to satisfy their never-ending rising stock-price and it will only get worse. Ps. Android exploits are worth more than iOS once now. How times have changed...

rydre 6y ago

>It's now so bad people are refraining from trying out innovative business model or apps just because they think there could be a chance someone at apple validation wouldn't like it and kill the product at any time. This is very true. I know of many people who have legitimate App ideas that would flourish today had it not been the extreme restrictions that Apple and Google is putting on mobile devices. Sadly, I can testify, that Apple and Google are actively putting obstacles in the way of innovation because it hurts their business models.

enriquto 6y ago

> This kind of post infuriates me. Apple's callous "walled garden" practices have always been well known. Honestly, developers who continue to participate in this shitshow had it coming.

kleiba 6y ago
I agree, that is a business risk you take. The problem is just that this risk is very difficult to assess and it leaves you very little in term of being able to influence it.
nicoburns 6y ago
If you want to create a cross-platform mobile app, you have no choice. In my country, iPhones are ~50% of smartphones. This needs to be regulated.
- rbrtl 6y ago
  You have the same choice the device users have. It's their right to choose their device, and it's your right to choose which provider you use or don't. It is not your right to reach all those people.
  - pacamara619 6y ago
    There's such a thing as antitrust laws you ancap, they don't even need to have a monopoly.
    - rbrtl 6y ago
      Aha, AnCap = AnarchoCapitalist? Used in the pejorative I assume. You Commie. There's such a thing as a legally binding contract too. You sign one to become an Apple Developer. You don't then bitch about the terms you agreed to when they don't suit. It's called being a grown up in the 21st century.
    - dang 6y ago
      We ban accounts that post like this, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when commenting on HN.

amelius 6y ago

Exactly, this is why I vote with my wallet and don't buy Apple products. Apple's hardware is perhaps only marginally better than the competition's, which by the way is much richer in choice. Developers should look further than Apple. It is better for the profession. Remember: developers : Apple == taxi drivers : Uber

rbrtl 6y ago
...and then not complain when they can't distribute to Apple users. All these whinging developers seem to have forgotten that they made an agreement with Apple which included: "10. Term and Termination. Apple may terminate or suspend you ... at any time in Apple’s sole discretion." Don't like the terms, don't sign the contract. I learned that the hard way at the age of 19, it wasn't in tech, it was a housing contract, but I learned my lesson: Before you agree to anything with legal standing, read it and reread it. Understand it, and if you don't seek help to get that understanding. Once you understand the terms you have to make a choice to agree or walk away. Then you have to live with the consequences. This is the basis of legal justice (as it stands) and much of society relies on it.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
> Apple's hardware is perhaps only marginally better than the competition's Microsoft and other brands are getting better at making quality hardware faster than Apple is innovating in the space. Apple still has the lead in their os just feeling so much nicer and solid to use but again it's still stagnant while windows is slowly evolving and when it comes down to it you can't even build a mac with the power you're working with on the Windows side so it stops really being an option if one means your work can be done multiple times faster (GPGPU workloads for example) than on the Mac side.
- thomaslord 6y ago
  It definitely also helps that Apple has been churning out laptops with heaps of major issues. In recent years they've had issues with their keyboards, screens, and audio hardware. Plus they don't do any board-level repair or allow anyone else to, so if you're stuck with a dead mainboard outside of the warranty period the solution is basically "say goodbye to your data and buy a new laptop."

bnastic 6y ago

> i can guarantee you that there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of stories like that, with people getting shut down for no good reason, and having their business killed How about Apple telling me they don't like my business bank (a well known UK bank I've been with for 10 years) and simply refusing to set up the account. In a very cold, "go away already", manner. I wasn't going to kill the relationship with my business bank just because Apple told me to, so the app never got onto App Store and I shut down my dev account.

kungato 6y ago
OT: why do you care which bank you're in?
- fsflover 6y ago
  Why would you allow Apple to decide which bank you must use?
  - kungato 6y ago
    My bank doesnt support Google Pay so I switched. Life is full of obstacles but we should go around them and not through them. Only person you hurt in your case is yourself. Or you didn't really want to bother with the whole thing anyway so you stopped at the first issue
    - joshuaissac 6y ago
      The person you replied to is not the same one from the original story. And there are many reasons to prefer one bank to another; in the poster's case, switching to an Apple-supported bank might have introduced more obstacles to go through than it would have avoided.
    - rbecker 6y ago
      > Life is full of obstacles but we should go around them and not through them. Excellent example of short-term thinking. If everyone followed your advice, Google and Apple would be able to extort any bank in the world, until in addition to their software and ad near-monopolies, they'd also have a banking near-monopoly.

ksec 6y ago

>I wish the Hey story makes people realize it is not reasonable to have one actor control the only software distribution channel to hundred of millions of customers. While Apple hasn't officially announced yet, they should have reached 1 Billion Active iPhone user in the past few months. They are just waiting for the moment to make the announcement. The Mission Impossible 5 lines always come up in my head when I read these stories. The App Store, was a hypothetically brainchild of certain people within Apple. Recruit former developers from other platform, supply them with tools, use them to grow the ecosystem and surgically remove our competitors, both at home and abroad. Its operation was to be hidden within Services in a virtual account that Steve alone would control. It would have made him a Judge, Jury and Executioner with zero accountability.