5 ms·

Yes, I've been thinking of this the same way. As someone who plans to stay in NYC, I'm looking forward to a time when WFH is more normalized and people who live

by paulgb 6y ago

Yes, I've been thinking of this the same way. As someone who plans to stay in NYC, I'm looking forward to a time when WFH is more normalized and people who live in cities are people who want to live in cities, not people who need to live in cities. It could be win-win for both types.

pengaru 6y ago
> people who live in cities are people who want to live in cities, not people who need to live in cities I'm not under the impression that the droves of techies riding free company shuttle buses from SF to Silicon Valley want to live outside of the city. Maybe that's a uniquely SF thing, as I believe Silicon Valley still employs more tech people than SF, despite SF becoming a tech hub itself post-mobile. People don't live in downtown SF because they need to, they already live there because they want to. People tend to leave expensive cities to start families.
- aianus 6y ago
  > People don't live in downtown SF because they need to, they already live there because they want to. Maybe downtown SF is just the lesser of two evils between SF and SV because of job location. Maybe they really want to be with their extended family in a suburb of Cleveland.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    > Maybe they really want to be with their extended family in a suburb of Cleveland. This especially made me laugh because the VP of Eng at one of my Silicon Valley startups was from Cleveland and would often joke "I escaped a prison sentence by leaving Cleveland" and "The place is so polluted the river caught on fire, TWICE!".
    - kyledrake 6y ago
      That fire was in 1969. This is kind of like moving to SF because it used to have hippies. I've been to Cleveland and it's actually a pretty solid place to live. I would argue you could have a far better life there with a $50k house than slavishly working for the rest of your life for a multi-million dollar tiny home in a giant sprawled out suburb. FWIW I never met a single person in the bay area that didn't want to live basically anywhere else, but couldn't because of work (and access to work). I'm sure they're there but I never met them. Networking is going to be terrible during COVID too, which is arguably the best thing about being down there for a startup anyways. I just think people are going to be amazed at how much that place hollows out as more tech companies decide to permanently go remote. I loved the weather, but I also like not having to work as much to put a roof over my head. I'm sure that resonates with a lot of other people too, that don't think retiring early surrounded by friends and family is a prison sentence.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        I do understand the attraction of parts of SF, Marin, the Santa Cruz mountains, etc. But not so much the Valley. And of course the places I just named are eye-wateringly expensive relative to other very attractive/relatively expensive places in the country that are also very attractive in terms of outdoor recreational activities and other such benefits.
        silpheed5 6y ago
        The weather is nice year round, lots a hiking nearby, beach is 40 min drive and easier commute to work while still being able to visit the city at night or weekends when you want. Good public schools if you live in the right areas. My personal favorite is the lack of mosquitos. I've lived in the midwest, south, new england and in Europe and never even considered there could be a place with such pleasant weather and no mosquitos. It does get chilly in the evenings though.
        pengaru 6y ago
        Having spent quite a bit of time in the Santa Cruz mountains, Big Basin SP, Pescadero/Butano SP, and Portola Redwoods SP areas, the no mosquitoes thing is a bit optimistic. Sure it's not as bad as say, northern Minnesota, but once you get away from the ocean and desert areas, if there's standing freshwater around there can be plenty of mosquitoes. The last time I camped in Big Basin everyone was running through clouds of them to/from the restrooms. But yeah, in the cities like SF and LA, there aren't very many. The city would spray for mosquitoes at night when I lived in San Mateo, which surprised me coming from the midwest and not expecting Californians to be ok with such chemicals sprayed throughout their neighborhoods while they slept.
        frank2 6y ago
        In my part of Marin County, they use a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis, to control the mosquitoes. There are enough mosquitoes so that you'll get bit if sit in one spot long enough, but I don't recall ever getting bit while walking.
    - Hydraulix989 6y ago
      That is a ridiculously out of touch thing to say (reminds me of something Mitt Romney might have blurted out). Cleveland is a fine place to live.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Wouldn’t the lesser of two evils in that case be somewhere around San Mateo? You’re roughly equidistant, IIRC, from SV and downtown SF there, the only geographical disadvantage being that you’re effectively cut off from the East Bay. But, for some, that’s not much of a disadvantage at all.
    - pengaru 6y ago
      I lived in San Mateo for a few years, right off 92 between 101 and 280 on the top of the hill. It was an ideal spot for 92/280 access. But while it was equidistant from everything of interest on a map, traffic was often so impossibly bad that everything was equally prohibitively inconvenient to reach. And forget about parking in SF after you've managed to get there, not on any busy night everyone else is out on too. If you want to access the SF night life regularly, San Mateo isn't really a convenient place for it. Maybe via Caltrain+BART@Millbrae? That wasn't easy from my place, our location was very car-optimized. I did prefer the San Mateo weather to SF or Berkeley though, even up on the hill we got way less cold damp crap weather ruining our nights out on the deck.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > Maybe via Caltrain+BART@Millbrae? That wasn't easy from my place, our location was very car-optimized. Why isn’t the train a more attractive option? You’re in one of the very few areas in the US with even one train line, and you still don’t sound like you’re very keen on it. Surely the train is a fine option from San Mateo right into central SF? What’s stopping you?
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        The Caltrain only goes to the very eastern edge of SF. BART has more coverage, but it's full of drug addicts and none of the stations in the city have working bathrooms.
        pengaru 6y ago
        Too many reasons to write here, I already said our location was very car-optimized which alone is enough for me.
- refurb 6y ago
  Considering how many techies put up with 2-3 hours of commuting per day, just to live in SF, I don’t think many will be leaving.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  Single techies live in SF because they want to get laid, and that won't happen on the peninsula. Brutal commute, though.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Get laid?! Wasn't the Bay area the worst place for dating for straight males?
    - pengaru 6y ago
      It's pretty bad, but SF vs. Man Jose there's no contest.

by paulgb 6y ago

pengaru 6y ago

> people who live in cities are people who want to live in cities, not people who need to live in cities I'm not under the impression that the droves of techies riding free company shuttle buses from SF to Silicon Valley want to live outside of the city. Maybe that's a uniquely SF thing, as I believe Silicon Valley still employs more tech people than SF, despite SF becoming a tech hub itself post-mobile. People don't live in downtown SF because they need to, they already live there because they want to. People tend to leave expensive cities to start families.

aianus 6y ago
> People don't live in downtown SF because they need to, they already live there because they want to. Maybe downtown SF is just the lesser of two evils between SF and SV because of job location. Maybe they really want to be with their extended family in a suburb of Cleveland.
- pengaru 6y ago
  > Maybe they really want to be with their extended family in a suburb of Cleveland. This especially made me laugh because the VP of Eng at one of my Silicon Valley startups was from Cleveland and would often joke "I escaped a prison sentence by leaving Cleveland" and "The place is so polluted the river caught on fire, TWICE!".
  - kyledrake 6y ago
    That fire was in 1969. This is kind of like moving to SF because it used to have hippies. I've been to Cleveland and it's actually a pretty solid place to live. I would argue you could have a far better life there with a $50k house than slavishly working for the rest of your life for a multi-million dollar tiny home in a giant sprawled out suburb. FWIW I never met a single person in the bay area that didn't want to live basically anywhere else, but couldn't because of work (and access to work). I'm sure they're there but I never met them. Networking is going to be terrible during COVID too, which is arguably the best thing about being down there for a startup anyways. I just think people are going to be amazed at how much that place hollows out as more tech companies decide to permanently go remote. I loved the weather, but I also like not having to work as much to put a roof over my head. I'm sure that resonates with a lot of other people too, that don't think retiring early surrounded by friends and family is a prison sentence.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      I do understand the attraction of parts of SF, Marin, the Santa Cruz mountains, etc. But not so much the Valley. And of course the places I just named are eye-wateringly expensive relative to other very attractive/relatively expensive places in the country that are also very attractive in terms of outdoor recreational activities and other such benefits.
      - silpheed5 6y ago
        The weather is nice year round, lots a hiking nearby, beach is 40 min drive and easier commute to work while still being able to visit the city at night or weekends when you want. Good public schools if you live in the right areas. My personal favorite is the lack of mosquitos. I've lived in the midwest, south, new england and in Europe and never even considered there could be a place with such pleasant weather and no mosquitos. It does get chilly in the evenings though.
        pengaru 6y ago
        Having spent quite a bit of time in the Santa Cruz mountains, Big Basin SP, Pescadero/Butano SP, and Portola Redwoods SP areas, the no mosquitoes thing is a bit optimistic. Sure it's not as bad as say, northern Minnesota, but once you get away from the ocean and desert areas, if there's standing freshwater around there can be plenty of mosquitoes. The last time I camped in Big Basin everyone was running through clouds of them to/from the restrooms. But yeah, in the cities like SF and LA, there aren't very many. The city would spray for mosquitoes at night when I lived in San Mateo, which surprised me coming from the midwest and not expecting Californians to be ok with such chemicals sprayed throughout their neighborhoods while they slept.
        frank2 6y ago
        In my part of Marin County, they use a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis, to control the mosquitoes. There are enough mosquitoes so that you'll get bit if sit in one spot long enough, but I don't recall ever getting bit while walking.
  - Hydraulix989 6y ago
    That is a ridiculously out of touch thing to say (reminds me of something Mitt Romney might have blurted out). Cleveland is a fine place to live.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Wouldn’t the lesser of two evils in that case be somewhere around San Mateo? You’re roughly equidistant, IIRC, from SV and downtown SF there, the only geographical disadvantage being that you’re effectively cut off from the East Bay. But, for some, that’s not much of a disadvantage at all.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    I lived in San Mateo for a few years, right off 92 between 101 and 280 on the top of the hill. It was an ideal spot for 92/280 access. But while it was equidistant from everything of interest on a map, traffic was often so impossibly bad that everything was equally prohibitively inconvenient to reach. And forget about parking in SF after you've managed to get there, not on any busy night everyone else is out on too. If you want to access the SF night life regularly, San Mateo isn't really a convenient place for it. Maybe via Caltrain+BART@Millbrae? That wasn't easy from my place, our location was very car-optimized. I did prefer the San Mateo weather to SF or Berkeley though, even up on the hill we got way less cold damp crap weather ruining our nights out on the deck.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > Maybe via Caltrain+BART@Millbrae? That wasn't easy from my place, our location was very car-optimized. Why isn’t the train a more attractive option? You’re in one of the very few areas in the US with even one train line, and you still don’t sound like you’re very keen on it. Surely the train is a fine option from San Mateo right into central SF? What’s stopping you?
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        The Caltrain only goes to the very eastern edge of SF. BART has more coverage, but it's full of drug addicts and none of the stations in the city have working bathrooms.
      - pengaru 6y ago
        Too many reasons to write here, I already said our location was very car-optimized which alone is enough for me.
refurb 6y ago
Considering how many techies put up with 2-3 hours of commuting per day, just to live in SF, I don’t think many will be leaving.
redis_mlc 6y ago
Single techies live in SF because they want to get laid, and that won't happen on the peninsula. Brutal commute, though.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Get laid?! Wasn't the Bay area the worst place for dating for straight males?
  - pengaru 6y ago
    It's pretty bad, but SF vs. Man Jose there's no contest.