4 ms·

This could be the case for literally any E2EE service that controls key distribution (including WhatsApp, Signal, etc.), especially when there's no way to verif

This could be the case for literally any E2EE service that controls key distribution (including WhatsApp, Signal, etc.), especially when there's no way to verify key fingerprints (here Signal differs because it does have a way, and it's open source so you can be more confident that it's not BSing you). It's shocking to me how often this is glossed over when discussing E2EE services: you still must trust the platform.

vonquant 6y ago
E2EE and open source: the two things people assume automatically makes things super-crazy-secure. The implementation of E2EE must be robust and there must be somebody who is actually checking the source code (plus verifiable builds)
- just-ok 6y ago
  Don't forget the human element: users still have actually do the verifying (e.g. checking public key fingerprints of recipients) that the source code enables!
- dkersten 6y ago
  It doesn’t automatically make everything secure, but it’s still a prerequisite for a trusted secure thing.
- antris 6y ago
  If you go down that road, you can make this argument infinitely. Even if you verify your builds, you cannot know if the software you are using to check the build isn't compromised. Or if you check the software you use to check the build, you have to check the software doing that check and so on. Nothing makes software automatically super-crazy-secure. Absolute security doesn't exist.
  - okamiueru 6y ago
    You'd get close by doing all you mentioned, but also compiling and hosting the code and infrastructure yourself. Not often this is feasible.
    - antris 6y ago
      You'd be still trusting the compiler. However many layers of checks you do, there's always something you need to trust.
- g-b-r 6y ago
  and safe OS, computer, room...
g-b-r 6y ago
"E2EE" is kinda antonymous with "key distribution" (unless, maybe, if you mean authentication keys)
- just-ok 6y ago
  Well the crux of E2EE is authenticity, so yes. Key distribution is a fundamental problem of public-key cryptography: you can’t get my public, authentic identity key without trusting someone to not tamper with it along the way. We implicitly trust [Zoom|iMessage|Telegram|...] to do this.
nickik 6y ago
You can check the finger print on WhatsApp
- just-ok 6y ago
  You absolutely can, but this leads directly to vonquant’s point (and antris’ follow-up)[1]: without the source, how far do you trust Facebook to not just pull a UI trick? It’s paranoia all the way down ;) [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23554909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23554909

vonquant 6y ago

E2EE and open source: the two things people assume automatically makes things super-crazy-secure. The implementation of E2EE must be robust and there must be somebody who is actually checking the source code (plus verifiable builds)

just-ok 6y ago
Don't forget the human element: users still have actually do the verifying (e.g. checking public key fingerprints of recipients) that the source code enables!
dkersten 6y ago
It doesn’t automatically make everything secure, but it’s still a prerequisite for a trusted secure thing.
antris 6y ago
If you go down that road, you can make this argument infinitely. Even if you verify your builds, you cannot know if the software you are using to check the build isn't compromised. Or if you check the software you use to check the build, you have to check the software doing that check and so on. Nothing makes software automatically super-crazy-secure. Absolute security doesn't exist.
- okamiueru 6y ago
  You'd get close by doing all you mentioned, but also compiling and hosting the code and infrastructure yourself. Not often this is feasible.
  - antris 6y ago
    You'd be still trusting the compiler. However many layers of checks you do, there's always something you need to trust.
g-b-r 6y ago
and safe OS, computer, room...

g-b-r 6y ago

"E2EE" is kinda antonymous with "key distribution" (unless, maybe, if you mean authentication keys)

just-ok 6y ago
Well the crux of E2EE is authenticity, so yes. Key distribution is a fundamental problem of public-key cryptography: you can’t get my public, authentic identity key without trusting someone to not tamper with it along the way. We implicitly trust [Zoom|iMessage|Telegram|...] to do this.

nickik 6y ago

You can check the finger print on WhatsApp

just-ok 6y ago
You absolutely can, but this leads directly to vonquant’s point (and antris’ follow-up)[1]: without the source, how far do you trust Facebook to not just pull a UI trick? It’s paranoia all the way down ;) [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23554909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23554909