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The master and slave debate was dumb, and reflects a creeping of political correctness into coding and software over the years that I do not look forward to. Re

by xwdv 6y ago

The master and slave debate was dumb, and reflects a creeping of political correctness into coding and software over the years that I do not look forward to. React’s keywords have been similarly attacked for promoting a “bro” culture with use of words like props or mount. And man-in-the-middle attacks are increasingly being described as person-in-the-middle, at the expense of alliteration. So many other examples out there.

sascha_sl 6y ago
It speaks of privilege to think having a debate on this is dumb. It's literally how human beings reconcile issues. You want to outright refuse the possibility that this is an issue to begin with. If you want to keep using your colonialism-inspired language, go ahead and ignore the critics (surely you can't believe github is going to ban you over it) but do not complain about this criticism existing because it makes you uncomfortable that someone does not like the language you use. That's not very liberal.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  > If you want to keep using your colonialism-inspired language It's not colonialism inspired language though. Edit: I also love the irony of invoking liberalism as a justification for silencing dissent.
  - sascha_sl 6y ago
    You want your thing to be above criticism, who is silencing dissent here?
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  No, making this a problem of racism speaks of privilege. A lot of privilege actually and a solid amount of detachment.
- bendergarcia 6y ago
  100% agree with this. I would say someone will respond (were all not liberal). And that this is beyond liberal and conservatism. This about signaling and human decency. Words make people uncomfortable and words have history.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    Question, then, is: where does this end?
    - noelsusman 6y ago
      We've been policing language through social norms since language was invented, so I'll bet on never.
    - bendergarcia 6y ago
      I don’t think it ever ends and I don’t think it needs to. We live the human experience which is subjective and we use language to communicate that experience. Until we become a singular entity we will always rely on language to externalize our world, because of that we should always think about the language we use to communicate and express ideas. Words shape the world we see and the world we experience.
      - Koshkin 6y ago
        The point is, there will always be something some people will find offensive. How long before "animal" or "robot" are found to have undesired connotations?
        Veen 6y ago
        Robot is an excellent example: it originates with the Czech word robota, which means forced labour or slavery.
- Veen 6y ago
  The word "privilege" is derived from the Latin "privilegium" , specifically its historical medieval use in laws like the Privilegium Maius and the Privilegium Minor, both of which were legal instruments of autocracy and imperialism. I think you should reconsider your use of imperialism-inspired language. Btw. "dumb" is an ableist slur.
  - sascha_sl 6y ago
    To the last point: It is, I'm sorry, I should pick my words more carefully.
schwartzworld 6y ago
> bro culture...props and mount who has made this accusation?
- xwdv 6y ago
  Saw it on the forums for MeteorJS some time back.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    I think it is not logical to take a single argument and ascribe it to a greater movement. I once knew someone who claimed to be a feminist who told me there is no such thing as consenting to penetrative sex (that all penetrative sex is rape). But it would be unreasonable to assume this ascribes to all feminism, or more obviously that all women felt this way because I saw it in one woman.
    - antihero 6y ago
      I do feel a lot of the fear around PC is based on taking extreme examples and thinking everyone is trying to destroy things. For instance the Rubocop - someone suggested it, some people agreed, some people disagreed, and ultimately they did not rename it. The React props and mount thing is just ludicrous...unfortunately the people with the most extreme viewpoints often shout the loudest.
      - TeaDrunk 6y ago
        Yes I agree that the props/mount thing is silly, which is probably why it's only seen in one discussion years ago and hasn't gained any traction since. It's far different than the issues that garnered the rise of community guidelines, which were broad, systemic, and repeated in several communities.
        xwdv 6y ago
        It didn't gain traction because the woman who brought it up was told to fuck off. It almost would have gained traction if just a few more people decided to agree with her, but the resistance was instantly discouraging.
TeaDrunk 6y ago
I think the debate on language is part of a greater discussion in the field as to the fact that software development and other tech fields are disproportionate in its representation, whether or not it’s a problem, and how to resolve it. These sorts of addresses approaches in language are an easy and immediate signal, like switching from language like policeman, postman, etc. Arguably it is much harder and will face much more resistance if GitHub attempted to solicit internship programs, scholarship grants, and supported programs necessary to churn the wheels on rolling back the factors preventing our field from being friendly to a broader demographic set of people.
- bendergarcia 6y ago
  I agree with your point. Engineers love to use signaling as a tool to prove points, yet are conveniently saying signaling doesn’t matter here. It’s signaling that prejudice and racism matter.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    Yes, I think that it is an easy signal that Microsoft (and GitHub) believes racism and prejudice is worth an adjustment in language. It’s much harder to actually perform systemic changes and I’m sure people would do plenty of gnashing of teeth about any significant movement, such as if Microsoft had grants only available to BIPOC (black/indigenous people of color, who have unique hardships in discriminatory systems in America compared with Indian or East Asian people who have and continue to face discrimination but they do not largely have existing government sanctioned forces to disenfranchise them from their birth to their death.)
    - bendergarcia 6y ago
      I think I follow what you’re saying. And I don’t think it has to be one or the other.Corporations and People need to both signal and action towards more equality. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. It is much harder but through signaling we raise the importance of the issue and increase the likelihood for action.
JoBrad 6y ago
This is a bit longer than I intended, but is my point of view, and not intended to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I think it’s easy to dismiss conversations like master/slave whitelist/blacklist as overly PC or childish. I certainly don’t appreciate the overly-preachy feeling I sometimes get from people pushing their point of view. And my nature is to find pleasure in giving The Man the proverbial finger. The self righteousness can be intentional on their part, of course, but many times it’s not. I honestly get the similar feelings about the diet-of-the-year fad, too. I have been very lucky in life so far, in that I haven’t struggled with weight or the negative impacts of racism. But I’m discovering that language is an incredibly powerful tool for changing deeply-rooted habits, like which foods you find comfort in, or your default reaction to conflict. When I’ve become an unwilling participant in these changes, I have to ask myself: what is the balance of pros/cons for me and for others? Also, what is my net influence on others who are attempting to do good (no matter my opinion on its effectiveness)? I don’t think I’ve ever changed the default branch for any GitHub repo I’ve worked with. It should theoretically cause no issues at all, I suppose, but I can’t state that with certainty. So there’s a bit of a challenge that I’ll actually enjoy. And I’m not aware of any culture or richness of vocabulary that depends on the dynamic of this set of nomenclature. Besides, I still see words like “serf” and “lord” on a semi-regular basis despite it’s remove from our lifestyles, so these words aren’t disappearing any time soon. On the other hand, it’s hard to deny that racism has scarred our society very deeply. I remember being shocked when my wife told me how young age was when someone first attempted to take advantage of her for sex. I recently felt the same level of shock when my friend told me that she gets called the n word multiple times every day. If our vocabulary can change our mindset, then maybe removing the master/slave dynamic can be a net positive, like removing the vocabulary of war from our daily interactions. We end up turning to other defaults instead of the old ones. Maybe we end up no better off, and decide to change again. Who knows? But personally I don’t see a lot of downside in the attempt to better our world.
- bendergarcia 6y ago
  More hacker news users need to read this comment. Thanks for posting.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

by xwdv 6y ago

sascha_sl 6y ago

It speaks of privilege to think having a debate on this is dumb. It's literally how human beings reconcile issues. You want to outright refuse the possibility that this is an issue to begin with. If you want to keep using your colonialism-inspired language, go ahead and ignore the critics (surely you can't believe github is going to ban you over it) but do not complain about this criticism existing because it makes you uncomfortable that someone does not like the language you use. That's not very liberal.

jeffreyrogers 6y ago
> If you want to keep using your colonialism-inspired language It's not colonialism inspired language though. Edit: I also love the irony of invoking liberalism as a justification for silencing dissent.
- sascha_sl 6y ago
  You want your thing to be above criticism, who is silencing dissent here?
raxxorrax 6y ago
No, making this a problem of racism speaks of privilege. A lot of privilege actually and a solid amount of detachment.
bendergarcia 6y ago
100% agree with this. I would say someone will respond (were all not liberal). And that this is beyond liberal and conservatism. This about signaling and human decency. Words make people uncomfortable and words have history.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  Question, then, is: where does this end?
  - noelsusman 6y ago
    We've been policing language through social norms since language was invented, so I'll bet on never.
  - bendergarcia 6y ago
    I don’t think it ever ends and I don’t think it needs to. We live the human experience which is subjective and we use language to communicate that experience. Until we become a singular entity we will always rely on language to externalize our world, because of that we should always think about the language we use to communicate and express ideas. Words shape the world we see and the world we experience.
    - Koshkin 6y ago
      The point is, there will always be something some people will find offensive. How long before "animal" or "robot" are found to have undesired connotations?
      - Veen 6y ago
        Robot is an excellent example: it originates with the Czech word robota, which means forced labour or slavery.
Veen 6y ago
The word "privilege" is derived from the Latin "privilegium" , specifically its historical medieval use in laws like the Privilegium Maius and the Privilegium Minor, both of which were legal instruments of autocracy and imperialism. I think you should reconsider your use of imperialism-inspired language. Btw. "dumb" is an ableist slur.
- sascha_sl 6y ago
  To the last point: It is, I'm sorry, I should pick my words more carefully.

schwartzworld 6y ago

> bro culture...props and mount who has made this accusation?

xwdv 6y ago
Saw it on the forums for MeteorJS some time back.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I think it is not logical to take a single argument and ascribe it to a greater movement. I once knew someone who claimed to be a feminist who told me there is no such thing as consenting to penetrative sex (that all penetrative sex is rape). But it would be unreasonable to assume this ascribes to all feminism, or more obviously that all women felt this way because I saw it in one woman.
  - antihero 6y ago
    I do feel a lot of the fear around PC is based on taking extreme examples and thinking everyone is trying to destroy things. For instance the Rubocop - someone suggested it, some people agreed, some people disagreed, and ultimately they did not rename it. The React props and mount thing is just ludicrous...unfortunately the people with the most extreme viewpoints often shout the loudest.
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      Yes I agree that the props/mount thing is silly, which is probably why it's only seen in one discussion years ago and hasn't gained any traction since. It's far different than the issues that garnered the rise of community guidelines, which were broad, systemic, and repeated in several communities.
      - xwdv 6y ago
        It didn't gain traction because the woman who brought it up was told to fuck off. It almost would have gained traction if just a few more people decided to agree with her, but the resistance was instantly discouraging.

TeaDrunk 6y ago

I think the debate on language is part of a greater discussion in the field as to the fact that software development and other tech fields are disproportionate in its representation, whether or not it’s a problem, and how to resolve it. These sorts of addresses approaches in language are an easy and immediate signal, like switching from language like policeman, postman, etc. Arguably it is much harder and will face much more resistance if GitHub attempted to solicit internship programs, scholarship grants, and supported programs necessary to churn the wheels on rolling back the factors preventing our field from being friendly to a broader demographic set of people.

bendergarcia 6y ago
I agree with your point. Engineers love to use signaling as a tool to prove points, yet are conveniently saying signaling doesn’t matter here. It’s signaling that prejudice and racism matter.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Yes, I think that it is an easy signal that Microsoft (and GitHub) believes racism and prejudice is worth an adjustment in language. It’s much harder to actually perform systemic changes and I’m sure people would do plenty of gnashing of teeth about any significant movement, such as if Microsoft had grants only available to BIPOC (black/indigenous people of color, who have unique hardships in discriminatory systems in America compared with Indian or East Asian people who have and continue to face discrimination but they do not largely have existing government sanctioned forces to disenfranchise them from their birth to their death.)
  - bendergarcia 6y ago
    I think I follow what you’re saying. And I don’t think it has to be one or the other.Corporations and People need to both signal and action towards more equality. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. It is much harder but through signaling we raise the importance of the issue and increase the likelihood for action.

JoBrad 6y ago

This is a bit longer than I intended, but is my point of view, and not intended to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I think it’s easy to dismiss conversations like master/slave whitelist/blacklist as overly PC or childish. I certainly don’t appreciate the overly-preachy feeling I sometimes get from people pushing their point of view. And my nature is to find pleasure in giving The Man the proverbial finger. The self righteousness can be intentional on their part, of course, but many times it’s not. I honestly get the similar feelings about the diet-of-the-year fad, too. I have been very lucky in life so far, in that I haven’t struggled with weight or the negative impacts of racism. But I’m discovering that language is an incredibly powerful tool for changing deeply-rooted habits, like which foods you find comfort in, or your default reaction to conflict. When I’ve become an unwilling participant in these changes, I have to ask myself: what is the balance of pros/cons for me and for others? Also, what is my net influence on others who are attempting to do good (no matter my opinion on its effectiveness)? I don’t think I’ve ever changed the default branch for any GitHub repo I’ve worked with. It should theoretically cause no issues at all, I suppose, but I can’t state that with certainty. So there’s a bit of a challenge that I’ll actually enjoy. And I’m not aware of any culture or richness of vocabulary that depends on the dynamic of this set of nomenclature. Besides, I still see words like “serf” and “lord” on a semi-regular basis despite it’s remove from our lifestyles, so these words aren’t disappearing any time soon. On the other hand, it’s hard to deny that racism has scarred our society very deeply. I remember being shocked when my wife told me how young age was when someone first attempted to take advantage of her for sex. I recently felt the same level of shock when my friend told me that she gets called the n word multiple times every day. If our vocabulary can change our mindset, then maybe removing the master/slave dynamic can be a net positive, like removing the vocabulary of war from our daily interactions. We end up turning to other defaults instead of the old ones. Maybe we end up no better off, and decide to change again. Who knows? But personally I don’t see a lot of downside in the attempt to better our world.

bendergarcia 6y ago
More hacker news users need to read this comment. Thanks for posting.
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago