6 ms·

> I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for

> I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. You would be surprised at how pervasive and long-lasting majority privilege can be. I live in Southeast Asia where foreigners are a very distinct minority and they experience all kinds of hardships. Difficulties making (local) friends, difficulties dealing with government bureaucracies, difficulties finding "their" food. Very few of them ever gain any empathy from it. On one occasion I was at a bar talking with a German guy telling me about how there are some areas in Germany where you get off the train and it "doesn't even feel like Germany". All the immigrants dress differently, talk differently, eat different food. They don't even try to fit in! Meanwhile, he hasn't learned the local language, has no local friends, lives in an apartment building that is mostly German expats. He actually said "I love my building because there are so many Germans." He doesn't even like the local food; I've never seen him eat it. You'd think the entire experience would build empathy. "Hey, living in a foreign country as a minority is really tough. No wonder they like to hang out around their own people. I did it too!" But nope. Completely oblivious.

SenHeng 6y ago
Have you ever tried pointing out the obliviousness to your German friend? I'am an ethnic Chinese living in Japan and essentially blend in. I've also spoken with a lot of other expats, often white who complain a lot about (sometimes positive) discrimination and just once, rather offhandedly, I replied that now you know what it feels like to be a minority. The instant reaction is to become defensive, but after a while, the bulb lights up.
hef19898 6y ago
As a German, that seems to a somewhat German stereotype. And as stereotypes go, there is little bit of truth to it. Points in case: Your friend. A couple of my friends back the day during holiday (Asia, Spain, you name it), same thing about food. My grandparents from what is now Tchechia. Born and raised there, never spoke anything else then German, only stayed in there social group. Generally speaking, that Europeans have a tendency to not take a lesson from that looks like white privilege to me. Your an expat, but still can feel better because of it. Counterpoint: Another friend of mine, lived in Bangkok for a while during and after his studies, lived in an upscale Appartment block, mostly under Thais. Learned the language as much ad possible, ate at local places. Unless it was a special occasion, then his girlfriend and him went to a European place.
nicolas_t 6y ago
Anecdotal but I've lived in different Asian countries for the last 15 years and my experience is that expats who live in compounds geared toward their nationality, never eat local food and never bothered to learn the local language tend to also be very racist. You'll hear them non-stop complaining about the locals or making sarcastic comments about them, about them having no manners, not speaking English properly (ironic considering) etc... And often enough, they'll say things like, "you know how Chinese/Malaysians/... are" as if that statement actually made sense... I've even heard one express profound admiration for a British family that had been involved in the Opium war and had been in HK for a long time. He admired them for staying "pure" despite staying so long in HK... It's really anecdotal but I've rarely seen a more toxic and racist culture than the Western expat communities in countries I've lived in...
- toyg 6y ago
  As a migrant myself (although white-on-white, so to speak), I understand where they are coming from. I think I've actually come to value my "original culture" more highly, after more than a decade abroad, despite having integrated pretty comprehensively into local customs. Nostalgia is a powerful and irrational sentiment. It doesn't excuse the racism, of course, but I can understand why it would reinforce it.
- christophilus 6y ago
  Why were they living there, if they despised those cultures? (Genuine question, not rhetorical.)
  - pawelk 6y ago
    There are many possible reasons. For example lower cost of living, retiring in a place that has both lower costs and perfect weather or moving for business reasons only etc etc. It happens even on a very micro scale when people move from cities to villages or the other way around. I quit a city life and moved to a village (~1200 inhabitants) but I also changed as many habits as I could to enjoy this life style. I met a lot of people early on and got to know them, developed some friendships, helped out and got some help. They are (edit: I would dare to say: we are, I feel part f the community now) very open, honest and inviting if you are as well. However there are people who move purely because property is way cheaper, but they want to maintain their city lifestyle and then try to contest the aspects of rural living that interfere with their idyllic vision of peaceful and silent sanctuary away from all civilization. There are noises and smells, tractors and cattle. Infrastructure is not up to par. Shops close early. And, worst of all, some treat the locals as uneducated dirty mass that is below their middle-class level. They tend to isolate and only seek company of other "expats". And in consequence are treated as suspicious, or even unwanted, element by the locals. It builds tensions and happens on the scale of ~50km between a village and the nearest city. On international or intercontinental scale it is probably amplified by orders of magnitude.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
This is - sadly - the norm for many British retirees who move to Southern France, Spain, or Portugal and then complain bitterly that the stupid backward locals can't speak English properly.
- seppin 6y ago
  Living in a place obligates you to at least try and fit in. Working in a place for 1-2 years, I fully understand why people don't bother.
brabel 6y ago
The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I've lived as part of a minority in other countries for half of my life. I try as much as I can to blend in, not because I think they are superior, but because I want to learn from their culture. But I have no illusion they will ever treat me the same way they treat their own. I can speak the local language perfectly and lots of people will still address me in English (not the local language) just because I look foreign. The locals never invite for anything. It's quite frustrating. I don't even have people from my own culture to socialize with, so I am mostly alone with my wife (who has another culture as well). It's frustrating for sure, but we learn to rely only on our own and enjoy life like that.
- bmn__ 6y ago
  > The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I was taught these are two words for different concepts. An immigrant expects to take permanent residence in a foreign country, an expatriate – temporarily. The former doing it nearly always out of his own volition, while the latter could very well be sent for duty, to varying degrees. I do not have any sympathy for immigrants refusing to integrate, but I don't think that an expatriate should necessarily come to be held to the same standard.
  - javieranton 6y ago
    Expat = white/pale skin immigrant. Racial entitlement continues to this day. Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"
    - eythian 6y ago
      That's certainly not my experience, as someone who relocated to a European capital for work. I work with people from all over with various skin colours, and pretty much everyone everyone self-identifies as an expat. The main difference seems to be whether they're people moving there to make a new life in a new place, and the work is secondary vs. it's the work that gets them to move (and if you move for work, it's probable that you're being paid more, so have the luxury to have the option to move somewhere else in a comparatively short time.)
malandrew 6y ago
It’s weird judging him condescendingly by saying he’s oblivious when at the end of the day, he’s happy. Maybe it’s his happiness in the situation that leads him not to ponder it like you do. He’s not missing anything that makes his life richer. I’ve been in both the majority and minority many times in my life and I like you have pondered it, but I also have the capacity to observe myself from the third person in a cold clinical way so I’m neither oblivious nor unhappy. Given four choices: aware and content, unaware and content, aware and uncontent and unaware and uncontent, I would never choose the last two, awareness isn’t worth it for contentment.
seppin 6y ago
I don't think your German friend sees his current living situation as anything other than temporary.
taurath 6y ago
Some folks travel to experience the world and be a part of it. Some travel to be like a visiting royal, to be treated their due of all of the exotic experiences.
raxxorrax 6y ago
It is pretty normal that you hold onto traditions of your original country as an expat, you can observe this everywhere in every culture. Sometimes that loyalty goes far beyond that of people still in their home countries. That said, someone has to be the majority and I think minorities in general have no problem with it. It isn't necessarily a "privilege" or a problem. If it is too hard on you, perhaps relocation is a better option. Most people just don't give it a thought after a while and no society can adapt to every whim, it is on minorities to adapt to the present culture.

SenHeng 6y ago

Have you ever tried pointing out the obliviousness to your German friend? I'am an ethnic Chinese living in Japan and essentially blend in. I've also spoken with a lot of other expats, often white who complain a lot about (sometimes positive) discrimination and just once, rather offhandedly, I replied that now you know what it feels like to be a minority. The instant reaction is to become defensive, but after a while, the bulb lights up.

hef19898 6y ago

As a German, that seems to a somewhat German stereotype. And as stereotypes go, there is little bit of truth to it. Points in case: Your friend. A couple of my friends back the day during holiday (Asia, Spain, you name it), same thing about food. My grandparents from what is now Tchechia. Born and raised there, never spoke anything else then German, only stayed in there social group. Generally speaking, that Europeans have a tendency to not take a lesson from that looks like white privilege to me. Your an expat, but still can feel better because of it. Counterpoint: Another friend of mine, lived in Bangkok for a while during and after his studies, lived in an upscale Appartment block, mostly under Thais. Learned the language as much ad possible, ate at local places. Unless it was a special occasion, then his girlfriend and him went to a European place.

nicolas_t 6y ago

Anecdotal but I've lived in different Asian countries for the last 15 years and my experience is that expats who live in compounds geared toward their nationality, never eat local food and never bothered to learn the local language tend to also be very racist. You'll hear them non-stop complaining about the locals or making sarcastic comments about them, about them having no manners, not speaking English properly (ironic considering) etc... And often enough, they'll say things like, "you know how Chinese/Malaysians/... are" as if that statement actually made sense... I've even heard one express profound admiration for a British family that had been involved in the Opium war and had been in HK for a long time. He admired them for staying "pure" despite staying so long in HK... It's really anecdotal but I've rarely seen a more toxic and racist culture than the Western expat communities in countries I've lived in...

toyg 6y ago
As a migrant myself (although white-on-white, so to speak), I understand where they are coming from. I think I've actually come to value my "original culture" more highly, after more than a decade abroad, despite having integrated pretty comprehensively into local customs. Nostalgia is a powerful and irrational sentiment. It doesn't excuse the racism, of course, but I can understand why it would reinforce it.
christophilus 6y ago
Why were they living there, if they despised those cultures? (Genuine question, not rhetorical.)
- pawelk 6y ago
  There are many possible reasons. For example lower cost of living, retiring in a place that has both lower costs and perfect weather or moving for business reasons only etc etc. It happens even on a very micro scale when people move from cities to villages or the other way around. I quit a city life and moved to a village (~1200 inhabitants) but I also changed as many habits as I could to enjoy this life style. I met a lot of people early on and got to know them, developed some friendships, helped out and got some help. They are (edit: I would dare to say: we are, I feel part f the community now) very open, honest and inviting if you are as well. However there are people who move purely because property is way cheaper, but they want to maintain their city lifestyle and then try to contest the aspects of rural living that interfere with their idyllic vision of peaceful and silent sanctuary away from all civilization. There are noises and smells, tractors and cattle. Infrastructure is not up to par. Shops close early. And, worst of all, some treat the locals as uneducated dirty mass that is below their middle-class level. They tend to isolate and only seek company of other "expats". And in consequence are treated as suspicious, or even unwanted, element by the locals. It builds tensions and happens on the scale of ~50km between a village and the nearest city. On international or intercontinental scale it is probably amplified by orders of magnitude.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

This is - sadly - the norm for many British retirees who move to Southern France, Spain, or Portugal and then complain bitterly that the stupid backward locals can't speak English properly.

seppin 6y ago
Living in a place obligates you to at least try and fit in. Working in a place for 1-2 years, I fully understand why people don't bother.

brabel 6y ago

The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I've lived as part of a minority in other countries for half of my life. I try as much as I can to blend in, not because I think they are superior, but because I want to learn from their culture. But I have no illusion they will ever treat me the same way they treat their own. I can speak the local language perfectly and lots of people will still address me in English (not the local language) just because I look foreign. The locals never invite for anything. It's quite frustrating. I don't even have people from my own culture to socialize with, so I am mostly alone with my wife (who has another culture as well). It's frustrating for sure, but we learn to rely only on our own and enjoy life like that.

bmn__ 6y ago
> The very fact they find it necessary to use a different word to describe themselves, "expats", than what they call foreigners who live in their countries, "immigrants", shows that they do not at all consider themselves to be in any way similar. I was taught these are two words for different concepts. An immigrant expects to take permanent residence in a foreign country, an expatriate – temporarily. The former doing it nearly always out of his own volition, while the latter could very well be sent for duty, to varying degrees. I do not have any sympathy for immigrants refusing to integrate, but I don't think that an expatriate should necessarily come to be held to the same standard.
- javieranton 6y ago
  Expat = white/pale skin immigrant. Racial entitlement continues to this day. Notice how only white people ever choose to consider themselves to be "expats"
  - eythian 6y ago
    That's certainly not my experience, as someone who relocated to a European capital for work. I work with people from all over with various skin colours, and pretty much everyone everyone self-identifies as an expat. The main difference seems to be whether they're people moving there to make a new life in a new place, and the work is secondary vs. it's the work that gets them to move (and if you move for work, it's probable that you're being paid more, so have the luxury to have the option to move somewhere else in a comparatively short time.)

malandrew 6y ago

It’s weird judging him condescendingly by saying he’s oblivious when at the end of the day, he’s happy. Maybe it’s his happiness in the situation that leads him not to ponder it like you do. He’s not missing anything that makes his life richer. I’ve been in both the majority and minority many times in my life and I like you have pondered it, but I also have the capacity to observe myself from the third person in a cold clinical way so I’m neither oblivious nor unhappy. Given four choices: aware and content, unaware and content, aware and uncontent and unaware and uncontent, I would never choose the last two, awareness isn’t worth it for contentment.

seppin 6y ago

I don't think your German friend sees his current living situation as anything other than temporary.

taurath 6y ago

Some folks travel to experience the world and be a part of it. Some travel to be like a visiting royal, to be treated their due of all of the exotic experiences.

raxxorrax 6y ago

It is pretty normal that you hold onto traditions of your original country as an expat, you can observe this everywhere in every culture. Sometimes that loyalty goes far beyond that of people still in their home countries. That said, someone has to be the majority and I think minorities in general have no problem with it. It isn't necessarily a "privilege" or a problem. If it is too hard on you, perhaps relocation is a better option. Most people just don't give it a thought after a while and no society can adapt to every whim, it is on minorities to adapt to the present culture.