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I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I ha

• gfxgirl 6y ago
  Where do you live? I have no idea what it's like to be Jewish but I have Jewish friends and have had Jewish bosses. I couldn't tell them apart from any other white people in the area. If they hadn't told me they were Jewish I'd never have known nor cared. I certainly didn't treat them different. At what point are we all just different? I can't meet people that are into my particular hobby. I also go to clubs and bars from time to time and never feel like "these are my people". Even going to game dev events (since I do game dev) a rarely feel like "these are my people".
  • SenHeng 6y ago
    I think it's very subtle stuff, an example may be having kosher food being the default. When living in Singapore, I used to make the faux pas of mixing together Muslim food (no pork), Indian food (no beef) and Chinese food (lots of pork/beef) together.
    • eru 6y ago
      You meant you mixed them on your plate? Or you just confused them? I don't think the former is faux pas. Just a bit weird. The latter seems like a hard mistake to make (I live in Singapore), but I guess it's possible, especially if you have no local guidance.
  • jsharf 6y ago
    Christmas feels weird to me -- It feels vaguely exclusive.
    • seppin 6y ago
      I mean no offense by this, but the jewish experience in America doesn't compare to the black experience. In 99% of cases you are just another white person.
      • toyg 6y ago
        It has to be said that, by all accounts, this didn't use to be the case until about WWII. But yeah, like all "white" minorities, Jews were eventually freed of the stigma. Obviously that's not the case for others.
      • enriquto 6y ago
        What do you mean by "black experience"? I'm not used to American culture and I have heard this expression several times. Is it only a skin-color thing or does "black" mean a different culture/tradition? I mean, if a black baby is raised by white parents on a 100% white neighborhood, will he live the black experience? Conversely, if a white baby is raised by black parents on a 100% black neighborhood, will he live the black experience? I honestly do not understand some of the anti-racist discourse (which I generally agree with), because sometimes people speak as if "black" was a distinct culture, not a race (and thus, independent from the racial issue, allowing for people of any skin color to be part or not of this culture).
        • seppin 6y ago
          Yes my friend who is black who lives in a big house in a rich area gets pulled over by the police at least once a month and harassed. Her upbringing and class doesn't matter. This is common: https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/us/chris-rock-pulled-over-police-selfies-feat/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/us/chris-rock-pulled-over-pol...
      • js2 6y ago
  • bkandel 6y ago
    So in America in the 21st century, white Jews are treated pretty much like any other white person. I would say that there are some subtle cultural things that make me feel a bit "other", though. For example, sports teams called the "Crusaders": In the Jewish collective memory, the Crusades were an awful time. Crusaders rampaged through many Jewish communities, murdering many thousand of Jewish people and destroying the Jewish communities in several cities (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres, among others). There are historical records of Jews committing suicide in anticipation of the Crusaders reaching their cities. Hearing about basketball teams called "The Crusaders" really surprised me -- did these people not know what the Crusaders did?
    • What_wonder 6y ago
      The Crusades were also a response to Arab invasions into Europe, during a time when Vienna, practically the center of Europe, was besieged twice by the Ottomans, and the entire Iberian peninsula was conquered and held for more than half a millennium by Muslims (and Constantinople/Istanbul still is). Many border countries had children regularly kidnapped into slavery by Ottoman raids (or had to turn them over as part of the blood tax), then turned into child soldiers and made to participate in those same raids, so try to understand when not everyone shares your black and white view of crusaders. Look at it this way - complaining about the Crusades makes as much sense as complaining about Purim, which celebrates 75 thousand Persians being pre-emptively killed for being "enemies of the Jews".
      • ttepasse 6y ago
        The Ottomans existed centuries _after_ the crusades, timing the raids and the Vienna sieges after the crusaded. Does time work different where you life?
    • js2 6y ago
      > So in America in the 21st century, white Jews are treated pretty much like any other white person. No, that's just not true. Yes, we have the privilege of being white. But hate crimes still happen to Jews. America still caters to Christians.
  • werber 6y ago
    I am also Jewish, but people don't know unless I tell them 99% of the time. The only time I feel "different" is when from time to time people say incredibly anti Semitic things to me not realizing what my background is. It's usually near strangers and really jarring. This also happens with my sexuality (gay), so I've just sort of accepted it. I do code switch, I don't use any "jewish" words in random situations and I shift my natural speaking pitch down to sound "straight". It's been my reality for so long that it just automatically happens now. I think we are all different, but certain differences have a lot more stigma attached to them and it shapes the way you view and interact with the world. I also do not feel like I'm with my "people" in interest groups.
  • js2 6y ago
    I live in NC. Judaism is more than just a religion. For many jews, it's part of their identity. That makes it different than going to clubs and bars or game dev events. It's a sense of exclusion that I feel at times, especially being in the bible belt. I've never had any particularly anti-semitic things happen to me, just a few minor incidents. But anti-semitism still happens to jews, and that affects me. For example, after the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting a couple years ago, my temple had to hire an off-duty police officer during our high holiday services so that temple members would feel safe. I have family members who attended the Pittsburgh temple. My mother experienced anti-semitism growing up in NJ that is part of her psyche to this day such that she's not comfortable wearing any jewish symbols. This is nothing like the black experience, and I don't mean to say that it is. But it gives me some empathy for what it must feel like to be marginalized, to be different. That is all I was trying to say.
• freddie_mercury 6y ago
  > I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. You would be surprised at how pervasive and long-lasting majority privilege can be. I live in Southeast Asia where foreigners are a very distinct minority and they experience all kinds of hardships. Difficulties making (local) friends, difficulties dealing with government bureaucracies, difficulties finding "their" food. Very few of them ever gain any empathy from it. On one occasion I was at a bar talking with a German guy telling me about how there are some areas in Germany where you get off the train and it "doesn't even feel like Germany". All the immigrants dress differently, talk differently, eat different food. They don't even try to fit in! Meanwhile, he hasn't learned the local language, has no local friends, lives in an apartment building that is mostly German expats. He actually said "I love my building because there are so many Germans." He doesn't even like the local food; I've never seen him eat it. You'd think the entire experience would build empathy. "Hey, living in a foreign country as a minority is really tough. No wonder they like to hang out around their own people. I did it too!" But nope. Completely oblivious.
  • SenHeng 6y ago
    Have you ever tried pointing out the obliviousness to your German friend? I'am an ethnic Chinese living in Japan and essentially blend in. I've also spoken with a lot of other expats, often white who complain a lot about (sometimes positive) discrimination and just once, rather offhandedly, I replied that now you know what it feels like to be a minority. The instant reaction is to become defensive, but after a while, the bulb lights up.
  • hef19898 6y ago
    As a German, that seems to a somewhat German stereotype. And as stereotypes go, there is little bit of truth to it. Points in case: Your friend. A couple of my friends back the day during holiday (Asia, Spain, you name it), same thing about food. My grandparents from what is now Tchechia. Born and raised there, never spoke anything else then German, only stayed in there social group. Generally speaking, that Europeans have a tendency to not take a lesson from that looks like white privilege to me. Your an expat, but still can feel better because of it. Counterpoint: Another friend of mine, lived in Bangkok for a while during and after his studies, lived in an upscale Appartment block, mostly under Thais. Learned the language as much ad possible, ate at local places. Unless it was a special occasion, then his girlfriend and him went to a European place.
• eru 6y ago
  > I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. Being in a minority is not enough. I'm a 'minority' where I live, but nowhere near oppressed. Just the opposite as far as I can tell.
  • js2 6y ago
    You're right. It's way too late to edit my comment, but it's the sense of being excluded or being seen as less-than because of my Judaism. It's the knowing that Jews were and sometimes still are hated just because they are different. It's not just being a minority.
• 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Most people do not know about the different Jewish peoples enough to recognize them. If you ask me to distinguish between Sephardim and Spaniards, or between an Ashkenazim and broadly European people, I will probably fail at that task. Most people will be unsuspecting that you are Jewish, and even if they realize that you are Jewish, they will not think much about it. Perhaps they will ask you if you have any dietary restrictions and that's it. Then, most Christians today see Judaism as another Abrahamic religion that is close to Christianity, not as a fundamentally different thing (even if in practice, it can be substantially different). Also, most people in the West are becoming increasingly secular and non-religious.
  • hef19898 6y ago
    Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Sure, I don't know if I ever worked with jewish people in my life. Reason being, that religion never came up ever. But as soon as jews don't blend in, either by traditional hair cuts or clothing, or by virtue of being at a synagoge, things are different. We still have enough anti-semitic incidents in Germany to actually be worried. I once worked with a guy who insulted a co-worker behind his back for being a jew (based on the family name, no idea if it's true or not). So yeah, you do get discriminated against if you are a jew. Not the same level as blacks in America, or muslims in India (add other example of extreme racism), but you do. Only valid for Germany for lack of reevant insight and experience in other countries.
    • 29athrowaway 6y ago
      The article was about Silicon Valley so I was referring to that. Must also be true for large tech hubs like NYC and Seattle. The situation outside those tech hubs can be very different.
• hanspeter 6y ago
  > I also never realized what it must feel like to be a Christian in America until I visited Israel for the first time I'm pretty sure white atheists in America feel equally among "my people" as Christians do (unless they're in a church or other highly religious surroundings). It's also an odd comparison as religion is a choice, where race or ethnicity is not.
  • BerislavLopac 6y ago
    Technically, religion is a choice; but in practice it is usually as much a choice as one's native language. People who are lucky to grow up with access to scientific education and varied cultural awareness are more easily able to choose the religion they want (if any); but many people (I would dare say the majority, on the global scale) are only exposed to a single, often very narrow mindset heavily defined by "religion" (to which one can include formally non-religious mindsets, like anti-vaxxers for example). For them, it takes a lot of effort to change their initial programming, assuming they ever get a chance at it. As for ethnicity, while again technically it is not a "choice", I'm not really sure it can be clearly defined. A friend was mine was born in Italy to British parents, his wife was Bosnian and two of their children were born in the US -- what is their ethnicity?
  • ShroudedNight 6y ago
    > ...as religion is a choice... It's not clear to me what aspects of religion would be obvious candidates for being described as a 'choice'. Personally, the fundamental aspects seem to operate as primal psychological forces, and overt action in contravention to them rapidly erodes things like confidence and self-esteem, while increasing things like anxiety. Every once in a while, people will definitely work against those pressures, but I would expect that behaviour to be unsustainable in the long term for the vast majority.
  • humanrebar 6y ago
    I'll agree that Christians do not feel among "my people" unless they are in their particular church culture. Even going to a drastically different type of church can feel out of place. Put a Pentecostal in a traditional Greek Orthodox service and ask if it felt like home. I'll also ask that atheists stop referring to religion as a choice. Atheists have as much of a say in whether God exists as anybody else. It would be patronizing to tell firm atheists that they chose atheism when clearly in the atheists mind, they are just reacting to reality. Likewise a theist doesn't have a say in whether an almighty creator exists and has opinions or not.
• zerr 6y ago
  I guess you're mixing up the religion vs ethnic origin? I mean, if we put the religion aside, can we say the same about e.g. Irish or Italian Americans?
  • js2 6y ago
    The Jewish experience is multi-faceted. And yes, as far as Irish or Italian Americans were treated as non-white in the early 1900s, and that they remember that experience, and that it gives them empathy to what it must be like for other minorities, then yes, we can say the same thing. I'm only trying to draw empathy from my Jewish experience, that is all.
• davedx 6y ago
  I'm a white British guy living in the Netherlands. I'll never forget shortly after moving here, I was sat in the garden with our Dutch neighbours and my Dutch girlfriend, and the man started complaining about "immigrants" and all the problems they brought to the Netherlands. My girlfriend said "you know Dave is an immigrant?" and he just waved it away, "Not you, you're not like them". Obviously he wasn't talking about well behaved white guys like me with his sweeping generalization, he meant the brown skinned guys. White privilege is very much a thing in the Netherlands. Even if someone knows you're not Dutch, as long as you look northern European it's fine. If you look like Zwarte Piet though, well, many Dutchies would much rather you went back to where you came from. Except when it's time to bring presents to the white Dutch kids. Then we love those adorable blackfaces! Actually things are changing in the Netherlands, some of it for the better, but there's still a significant, stubbornly racist population here. Much more than you'd think when hearing about "tolerant Netherlands" from outside.
  • eythian 6y ago
    It does look like it's improving at a rate of knots though. Hell, even Rutte got on the bandwagon recently which is not something I thought I'd see. A friend of mine was talking about it recently (her family are from Egypt, but she's born and raised Dutch) and she said she probably notices more issues from being a woman than looking "Arabic." This is Amsterdam though, and it's hard to generalise from here to the rest of the country.
  • spoopyskelly 6y ago
    If you're from Britain you should know it is about stereotypes, not race. The Asians make your food, the Polish fix your pipes and the Romanians build your houses.
    • dragonsky67 6y ago
      And everybody knows the English just complain about everything ;-)
• christophilus 6y ago
  I’m a white Catholic. The first time I experienced being a minority was in Korea. It was definitely unsettling how many people seemed openly or somewhat unhappy we were there. I can’t imagine living my entire life with that sense! If you just normalized it and moved on, I imagine you’d have deep psychological effects and chronic career challenges, etc. So, yeah, pretty much what we see minorities face around the world. I don’t know the solution, though. It seems to me pretty much impossible that a white person would ever fully feel like part of the group in Korea, even if 100% of the hostility was replaced by genuine love. You’d be different.
  • spats1990 6y ago
    spent half the last decade in seoul, my impression is that it's both far easier and far harder to fully feel like part of the group in korea as a non-korean. the first hurdle, which most foreigners (including me) never fully make it past, is the language. after that, it is down to the specific people that make up the group around the foreigner, and i think this is true of any humans anywhere. my impression was that the most cruel forms of exclusion/discrimination in korean society were reserved for other east asians/asians who speak korean as a fluent L2. this will probably come to a head, hopefully with positive results, in the next 15-20 years given that there is a large (non-trivial) subgroup of children in korea now, mostly outside seoul, with a parent (usually the mother) from a south east asian country. on the topic that kicked off this subthread (i think--about stubbornly non-adaptive western foreigners in very different cultures than their own), when i was doing ~25 hours a week of korean language classes and study in addition to a full time job, i used to tell that particular subtype of Complaining Expat that if they wanted to level up their complaining about the host culture, they should learn intermediate korean, if only for the sole purpose of unlocking a whole new ocean of complaining material. this was obviously bait/a joke, but there are no jokes: it's one thing to have someone make basic hand gestures like "eating" etc to you when they know you absolutely don't really know what you are saying; it's another thing to have someone do it when you have been conversing with them in their language for the last five to ten minutes. i could do like fifty posts about race and foreignness in korea but i always think of the model who has appeared in a lot of korean shoe and clothing ads recently. his parents are nigerian and korean and he grew up in korea with korean as his first language, and in an interview he once expressed goodhumoured frustration about ethnic-korean people speaking English to him by default when his english is, by his own admission, not that great at all.