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Well, If you don't trust them and don't want to verify there is nothing they can do. For the ones with basic trust, they do a lot. Way more than most others. (

Well, If you don't trust them and don't want to verify there is nothing they can do. For the ones with basic trust, they do a lot. Way more than most others. (Just look at the transparent dev process, the depth of documentation etc.)

raxxorrax 6y ago
I have very little basic trust because of several reasons and have nothing to criticize on the development process, but I have no blanket trust for my government because it wasn't involved here besides as financier. The decisions for security measures didn't come from them. If they could get more info from people, they would try. The behavior shows a clear pattern over the last decade and luckily we have controlling institutions that are not as easily swayed. That said, I never said anything about not using the app. I will certainly try it, although I think we are at a pandemic stage when it doesn't matter that much anymore. Maybe for the next one.
- johannes1234321 6y ago
  > The decisions for security measures didn't come from them. This becomes philosophical, but the contract certainly contained security requirements (whether those are "adquante" can be argued) and they certainly required audits, which were done. But yes, the health minister is not an IT security expert, thus details are delegated. > If they could get more info from people, they would try. As the French try and Norwegians tried with their central approaches. If they wanted they could have made it closed source (like anything else they did before, thus nothing special) could have done more hand wavy design documents, could have done development away from a public repo with public issue tracker, ... They (and yes, this was to a notable part driven by the engineers, but supervisees could easily overruled) conciously made it open and transparent. There is hardly anything more they could have done within that project. (Spying activity by German intelligence/BND, "state trojans" (Quellen-TKÜ), ... etc are serious topics and yes, some "security experts" (i.e. Wolfgang Schäuble) demand mandatory tracking apps, but don't see that as being far from a mainstream oppinion in the government.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    I don't dislike our current government but am starved of political opposition. I think this is reasonable in the context of the last decade of German politics. The reason we got this transparency is the implicit demand for open solutions, not because of generous overlords. You could make tracking mandatory but it would certainly be a huge failure in the end. So they reacted to a demand and I have more where that came from. To repeat, I have no issues how it was handled here. Baby steps...
    - johannes1234321 6y ago
      Ack, I think the many years of "große Koalition" aren't good for democracy and I think it had been better if SPD would have gone into opposition after the last election and see the consequences of minority government roll out ... then we could have a political debate with contradicting points of views etc. instead of long discussions in a Koalitionsausschuss followed by harmony ... but this is not directly related to this specific topic. (Side note: I'm fresh SPD member and think they get quite a few of their initiatives through, despite the election results they get ... but we need more proper debate in democratic circles ...)

raxxorrax 6y ago

I have very little basic trust because of several reasons and have nothing to criticize on the development process, but I have no blanket trust for my government because it wasn't involved here besides as financier. The decisions for security measures didn't come from them. If they could get more info from people, they would try. The behavior shows a clear pattern over the last decade and luckily we have controlling institutions that are not as easily swayed. That said, I never said anything about not using the app. I will certainly try it, although I think we are at a pandemic stage when it doesn't matter that much anymore. Maybe for the next one.

johannes1234321 6y ago
> The decisions for security measures didn't come from them. This becomes philosophical, but the contract certainly contained security requirements (whether those are "adquante" can be argued) and they certainly required audits, which were done. But yes, the health minister is not an IT security expert, thus details are delegated. > If they could get more info from people, they would try. As the French try and Norwegians tried with their central approaches. If they wanted they could have made it closed source (like anything else they did before, thus nothing special) could have done more hand wavy design documents, could have done development away from a public repo with public issue tracker, ... They (and yes, this was to a notable part driven by the engineers, but supervisees could easily overruled) conciously made it open and transparent. There is hardly anything more they could have done within that project. (Spying activity by German intelligence/BND, "state trojans" (Quellen-TKÜ), ... etc are serious topics and yes, some "security experts" (i.e. Wolfgang Schäuble) demand mandatory tracking apps, but don't see that as being far from a mainstream oppinion in the government.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I don't dislike our current government but am starved of political opposition. I think this is reasonable in the context of the last decade of German politics. The reason we got this transparency is the implicit demand for open solutions, not because of generous overlords. You could make tracking mandatory but it would certainly be a huge failure in the end. So they reacted to a demand and I have more where that came from. To repeat, I have no issues how it was handled here. Baby steps...
  - johannes1234321 6y ago
    Ack, I think the many years of "große Koalition" aren't good for democracy and I think it had been better if SPD would have gone into opposition after the last election and see the consequences of minority government roll out ... then we could have a political debate with contradicting points of views etc. instead of long discussions in a Koalitionsausschuss followed by harmony ... but this is not directly related to this specific topic. (Side note: I'm fresh SPD member and think they get quite a few of their initiatives through, despite the election results they get ... but we need more proper debate in democratic circles ...)