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I think a better way to look at it is that workers should be able to protest working on a machine they find morally wrong. The world might be a better place if

by 49531 6y ago

I think a better way to look at it is that workers should be able to protest working on a machine they find morally wrong. The world might be a better place if people directing resources were required to stop and think "Are the workers going to willingly do this?" before making decisions.

mc32 6y ago
What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?
- archagon 6y ago
  To some extent, yes. The economy exists for the benefit of humanity and not the other way around. The question is: does the automation help us build things that were impossible before, or does it exist for the sole purpose of cutting jobs and funneling more money to the executives?
  - mc32 6y ago
    Let’s say we’ll go that far and companies accept that... Does everyone refuse to work for Komatsu, John Deere, Liebherr, etc? Is that even possible?
  - takeda 6y ago
    IMO what actually needs to be done is tax on automation that would directly fund universal income. That would actually help humanity.
    - diegoperini 6y ago
      That kills the whole purpose of automation. Automation is preferable because it is supposed to be cheaper while providing equal benefits as traditional production of goods and services. My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated. The result is the same, we are funding a UBI but now businesses are also incentivized for innovation to escape from the tax. I'm probably missing hundreds of reasonable concerns with my simplistic view point though.
      - kelnos 6y ago
        > That kills the whole purpose of automation. Automation is preferable because it is supposed to be cheaper while providing equal benefits as traditional production of goods and services. That's the capitalist enrich-the-owners purpose. In my mind, the real purpose of automation is to relieve humans the need to do work so they can live lives of leisure and personal enrichment. Unfortunately, I don't expect us to get there within my lifetime, if ever at all.
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated. If a practice is provably automatable, then it's already automated. That's what proof looks like.
        diegoperini 6y ago
        Existence of a proof doesn't mean application of it is widespread.
        thaumasiotes 6y ago
        In this case, the existence of a proof means that its application is universal. You may believe that the automation of one process could be easily generalized to another process, but you haven't proved it until you've automated the second process.
        nefitty 6y ago
        Well, some companies seem to end up with weird incentives where it makes sense to be less productive. For example, a dev might create some script that eliminates some data processing roles. The CEO might decide to not implement it solely to save a few jobs. If there’s a tax for not automating then the organization will immediately respond in a more economically rational way.
    - robbrown451 6y ago
      How exactly are you going to measure what is automation? Even something as basic as making a function rather than copy-pasting code is automation.Where do you draw the line? Who is going to measure this?
- robbrown451 6y ago
  In that case they probably should quit and join a different company. I mean, if they don't agree with the core function of their job, why are they working there? Regardless, if enough people think it is wrong that the company goes out of business, so be it. I don't think that is likely, but ok. Automation is going to continue to happen no matter what.
- jancsika 6y ago
  > Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment? This seems like an unfruitful digression. OP already agreed that the actions of ICE are immoral and that this action is within the moral rights of the workers. The main question is about efficacy. That isn't elucidated by introducing a thought experiment where you believe the moral rights of developers are not as clear cut.
  - mc32 6y ago
    For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government. So the question is can employees who have diverging moralities have direct input on what a company considers moral and immoral outside the common take of the population at large?
    - zajd 6y ago
      > For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate What America do you live in?
    - ElFitz 6y ago
      Can they? It seems so, yes. Should they? Well, one hardly can force someone to work for one's self nowadays. Companies aren't democracies. Why should "the population at large"'s opinion matter in anyway? Most people don't even know Github exists, let alone what it's for.
    - jancsika 6y ago
      > For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government. At least for Americans you are wrong on all three counts, and that may be where the confusion is coming. The workers (and as I already stated, the OP) all agree that there are actions done by ICE that are not only unethical but morally reprehensible. One of the (only) two major parties officially agrees as do a large portion of their constituents. So your question about views "outside the common take" is interesting but not relevant to this discussion.
rattray 6y ago
Yes, I'm glad that GitHub workers are allowed to protest this. It is heartening. That doesn't change the fact that I'm personally disappointed that they're executing that privilege on this particular issue.
- takeda 6y ago
  "I'm happy that people are allowed to protest, but I don't think they should protest for causes that I don't agree with" "I think ICE needs reforms, but I don't believe a pressure should be put on them to impose changes" Makes me wonder if you truly support people protesting or even agree that ICE is doing anything wrong.
  - rattray 6y ago
    This just seems like a weird, ineffective way to put pressure on ICE to stop detaining people excessively, inhumanely, or lethally. Anger and outrage are valuable, and it's important that we channel them in the right directions.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      This just seems like a weird, ineffective way to put pressure on ICE to stop detaining people excessively, inhumanely, or lethally. It might very well be, and it's worth debating how much giving business support to an organization whose policies you (possibly vehemently) disagree with is a kind of implicit support of those policies. But, it's also worth asking: if protest by workers to put pressure on their employees to stop giving business support to organizations whose policies they vehemently disagree with is "disappointing," what kind of protest isn't? It seems to me that when we're talking about corporations, who you do and don't sign contracts with -- who you buy from, who you sell to, and what charities you support -- is far and away the strongest signal you can send. If you're sending a signal of support to Black Lives Matter protests, it's nice if you send out a few tweets and update your home page, but it's better if you donate money, services, and/or employee time. And the group you donate those things to is going to send a signal: donating to Colin Kaepernick's "Know Your Rights Camp" is in some sense a more specific, stronger message than donating to the ACLU. So it certainly seems reasonable that asking the corporations you work for (and perhaps work with) to put their money where their PR is in terms of who they do business with also sends a message. No, it's probably not in and of itself going to put much pressure on ICE, but it is a statement of values.

by 49531 6y ago

mc32 6y ago

What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

archagon 6y ago
To some extent, yes. The economy exists for the benefit of humanity and not the other way around. The question is: does the automation help us build things that were impossible before, or does it exist for the sole purpose of cutting jobs and funneling more money to the executives?
- mc32 6y ago
  Let’s say we’ll go that far and companies accept that... Does everyone refuse to work for Komatsu, John Deere, Liebherr, etc? Is that even possible?
- takeda 6y ago
  IMO what actually needs to be done is tax on automation that would directly fund universal income. That would actually help humanity.
  - diegoperini 6y ago
    That kills the whole purpose of automation. Automation is preferable because it is supposed to be cheaper while providing equal benefits as traditional production of goods and services. My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated. The result is the same, we are funding a UBI but now businesses are also incentivized for innovation to escape from the tax. I'm probably missing hundreds of reasonable concerns with my simplistic view point though.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      > That kills the whole purpose of automation. Automation is preferable because it is supposed to be cheaper while providing equal benefits as traditional production of goods and services. That's the capitalist enrich-the-owners purpose. In my mind, the real purpose of automation is to relieve humans the need to do work so they can live lives of leisure and personal enrichment. Unfortunately, I don't expect us to get there within my lifetime, if ever at all.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated. If a practice is provably automatable, then it's already automated. That's what proof looks like.
      - diegoperini 6y ago
        Existence of a proof doesn't mean application of it is widespread.
        thaumasiotes 6y ago
        In this case, the existence of a proof means that its application is universal. You may believe that the automation of one process could be easily generalized to another process, but you haven't proved it until you've automated the second process.
      - nefitty 6y ago
        Well, some companies seem to end up with weird incentives where it makes sense to be less productive. For example, a dev might create some script that eliminates some data processing roles. The CEO might decide to not implement it solely to save a few jobs. If there’s a tax for not automating then the organization will immediately respond in a more economically rational way.
  - robbrown451 6y ago
    How exactly are you going to measure what is automation? Even something as basic as making a function rather than copy-pasting code is automation.Where do you draw the line? Who is going to measure this?
robbrown451 6y ago
In that case they probably should quit and join a different company. I mean, if they don't agree with the core function of their job, why are they working there? Regardless, if enough people think it is wrong that the company goes out of business, so be it. I don't think that is likely, but ok. Automation is going to continue to happen no matter what.
jancsika 6y ago
> Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment? This seems like an unfruitful digression. OP already agreed that the actions of ICE are immoral and that this action is within the moral rights of the workers. The main question is about efficacy. That isn't elucidated by introducing a thought experiment where you believe the moral rights of developers are not as clear cut.
- mc32 6y ago
  For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government. So the question is can employees who have diverging moralities have direct input on what a company considers moral and immoral outside the common take of the population at large?
  - zajd 6y ago
    > For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate What America do you live in?
  - ElFitz 6y ago
    Can they? It seems so, yes. Should they? Well, one hardly can force someone to work for one's self nowadays. Companies aren't democracies. Why should "the population at large"'s opinion matter in anyway? Most people don't even know Github exists, let alone what it's for.
  - jancsika 6y ago
    > For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government. At least for Americans you are wrong on all three counts, and that may be where the confusion is coming. The workers (and as I already stated, the OP) all agree that there are actions done by ICE that are not only unethical but morally reprehensible. One of the (only) two major parties officially agrees as do a large portion of their constituents. So your question about views "outside the common take" is interesting but not relevant to this discussion.

rattray 6y ago

Yes, I'm glad that GitHub workers are allowed to protest this. It is heartening. That doesn't change the fact that I'm personally disappointed that they're executing that privilege on this particular issue.

takeda 6y ago
"I'm happy that people are allowed to protest, but I don't think they should protest for causes that I don't agree with" "I think ICE needs reforms, but I don't believe a pressure should be put on them to impose changes" Makes me wonder if you truly support people protesting or even agree that ICE is doing anything wrong.
- rattray 6y ago
  This just seems like a weird, ineffective way to put pressure on ICE to stop detaining people excessively, inhumanely, or lethally. Anger and outrage are valuable, and it's important that we channel them in the right directions.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    This just seems like a weird, ineffective way to put pressure on ICE to stop detaining people excessively, inhumanely, or lethally. It might very well be, and it's worth debating how much giving business support to an organization whose policies you (possibly vehemently) disagree with is a kind of implicit support of those policies. But, it's also worth asking: if protest by workers to put pressure on their employees to stop giving business support to organizations whose policies they vehemently disagree with is "disappointing," what kind of protest isn't? It seems to me that when we're talking about corporations, who you do and don't sign contracts with -- who you buy from, who you sell to, and what charities you support -- is far and away the strongest signal you can send. If you're sending a signal of support to Black Lives Matter protests, it's nice if you send out a few tweets and update your home page, but it's better if you donate money, services, and/or employee time. And the group you donate those things to is going to send a signal: donating to Colin Kaepernick's "Know Your Rights Camp" is in some sense a more specific, stronger message than donating to the ACLU. So it certainly seems reasonable that asking the corporations you work for (and perhaps work with) to put their money where their PR is in terms of who they do business with also sends a message. No, it's probably not in and of itself going to put much pressure on ICE, but it is a statement of values.