4 ms·

Are you suggesting that if you sat a child down in front of a computer and walked away, they wouldn't eventually know how to do most things? Children are more

by blunte 6y ago

Are you suggesting that if you sat a child down in front of a computer and walked away, they wouldn't eventually know how to do most things? Children are more likely to try stuff without fear of bad outcomes. It's the adults who need hand-holding. Children will click everything to see what happens. I know this is probably too old for many readers here, but there was a time when people had VCRs (video cassette players). Most VCRs had a built in digital clock, and many of those VCRs had no backup battery. One little power blip meant the VCR clock would reset to something useless and annoying. Children or grandchildren would be routinely tasked with setting those clocks, since only they seemed to know how. And almost certainly, those children did not read the manual to learn how to do the unintuitive things with the limited interfaces that would result in setting the clock.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
How many children learn the ins and outs of cmd.exe when modern PCs have so many compelling distractions not to mention no printed documentation to give direction? Naive computer users get locked into local maxima until a need either knocks them into a more complete understanding of how to do things or they just give up. The adults in their social sphere are usually no better equipped to provide guidance.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Is that local maxima bad? In some cases it is, but in other cases it is good enough, now get on with other things in life. The hours I wasted learning edlen back in the day could have been spent learning how to play piano. (my parents didn't have a piano, they had a 8088 computer... Today I have a piano and all of my computers have better editors)
- snazz 6y ago
  I'm sure that plenty do. I somehow discovered Emacs in the Terminal on the family Mac when I was much younger and I consider that the start of my interest in how computers work under the hood (aside: thanks to the GNU Emacs developers for making the manual so accessible immediately after typing `emacs` into a shell). The biggest positive influence from my parents and other adults in my life was regulating my video game time but not my "playing with the computer" time. I was pushed towards reading and learning about computer stuff instead of playing games and watching videos. I'm sure that some kids need more guidance, but in the age of the Internet, the subtle push away from entertainment activities might be enough for many.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    I think it's important to remember that many of the people here are exceptional, not typical, computer users. I figured out (mostly on my own, my dad showed me how to get to the prompt itself and that was it) the DOS interface and BASIC (using contents from a math textbook) at age 8. But that's not normal, most of my peers who also had computers available to them figured out video games and that was it.
watwut 6y ago
> Are you suggesting that if you sat a child down in front of a computer and walked away, they wouldn't eventually know how to do most things? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And yes, I have the opportunity to watch children and their interactions with technology. And also, the random clicking without fear gets them to locked tablet/computer with things turned off, random files deleted and them being scared cause nothing works suddenly. Also, I remember VCR and no, the kid was rarely the only one knowing how to set the clock or almost never the one who set the clock first when device came new. Typically someone else set the clock when device was new. When you put the kid in room with crayons, overwhelming majority wont learn to do art in any reasonable level. If you put them into room with wood and knife, overwhelming majority wont discover woodworking techniques.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  > them being scared cause nothing works suddenly. // This "oh crap, I've bust it" moment is the precursor to learning! Tech tends to be too locked down nowadays, so those moments become fewer - you have to manufacture them.
  - watwut 6y ago
    > This "oh crap, I've bust it" moment is the precursor to learning! Unless of course you end up with device you can't use and then go do something elsw. It is just not true that kids would universally figured it on their own, especially when the issue is deep in settings. Frankly, people here imagine idealised version of themselves and then expect it to be norm. That would be like artist imagining that all the kids love drawing and high quality crayons are all they need and then being shocked that most of them just can't do it. And double so kids for who computer is something expensive for work and not a toy. So if they broke it parent is locked out of work till they find someone who will fix it and the kid won't get access again. And tripple so kids who are not English native speakers and don't understand words on screens.
    - derefr 6y ago
      As far as I know, the obvious difference comes down to depravation. If you have a computer that does all sorts of important things, like work, or even playing games, then exploring how it works isn't the obvious first thing that comes to mind for interacting with it. But if you have a computer that doesn't really have any use-cases that you personally care about, exploring how it works is pretty much the only thing you there is to do, when playing around with it. Similarly, if you break your computer while exploring it, and you have plenty of other things to do, then you'll maybe give up on your explorations. But if you break your computer and you have nothing else to play with, you'll see the breakage as an obstacle in the way of your continued entertainment—sort of like you might see the Internet being down—and try to figure out how to get it back up and working again. You might not succeed, but it's the attempt to get it working that builds the "engineering mindset", not the success per se. I'm a programmer today mostly because: my parents weren't always around to bug; I didn't live near-enough to friends to always have them over or visit them; and I didn't own any video games, but merely rented them (mostly timed to when said friends came over.) Then, when I was 9-or-so, my family got a computer that ran Windows 98, had no Internet connection, and had no games installed. I "played" with it by poking around in MS Paint and discovering the hidden sets of system MIDI files; but also by doing weird things like making "Briefcases" just to see what they did; or creating desktop shortcuts to nothing-in-particular just so I could put some of the "cool" icons from pifmgr.dll on my desktop, as if I was collecting game power-ups.
andyjohnson0 6y ago
You're assuming that they have time and resources for even relatively unrestricted exploration. Judging from the article, that probably isn't the case for most of these children.
ducaale 6y ago
there was a TED talk about children in rural areas teaching themselves how to use a computer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0

by blunte 6y ago

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

How many children learn the ins and outs of cmd.exe when modern PCs have so many compelling distractions not to mention no printed documentation to give direction? Naive computer users get locked into local maxima until a need either knocks them into a more complete understanding of how to do things or they just give up. The adults in their social sphere are usually no better equipped to provide guidance.

bluGill 6y ago
Is that local maxima bad? In some cases it is, but in other cases it is good enough, now get on with other things in life. The hours I wasted learning edlen back in the day could have been spent learning how to play piano. (my parents didn't have a piano, they had a 8088 computer... Today I have a piano and all of my computers have better editors)
snazz 6y ago
I'm sure that plenty do. I somehow discovered Emacs in the Terminal on the family Mac when I was much younger and I consider that the start of my interest in how computers work under the hood (aside: thanks to the GNU Emacs developers for making the manual so accessible immediately after typing `emacs` into a shell). The biggest positive influence from my parents and other adults in my life was regulating my video game time but not my "playing with the computer" time. I was pushed towards reading and learning about computer stuff instead of playing games and watching videos. I'm sure that some kids need more guidance, but in the age of the Internet, the subtle push away from entertainment activities might be enough for many.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  I think it's important to remember that many of the people here are exceptional, not typical, computer users. I figured out (mostly on my own, my dad showed me how to get to the prompt itself and that was it) the DOS interface and BASIC (using contents from a math textbook) at age 8. But that's not normal, most of my peers who also had computers available to them figured out video games and that was it.

watwut 6y ago

> Are you suggesting that if you sat a child down in front of a computer and walked away, they wouldn't eventually know how to do most things? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And yes, I have the opportunity to watch children and their interactions with technology. And also, the random clicking without fear gets them to locked tablet/computer with things turned off, random files deleted and them being scared cause nothing works suddenly. Also, I remember VCR and no, the kid was rarely the only one knowing how to set the clock or almost never the one who set the clock first when device came new. Typically someone else set the clock when device was new. When you put the kid in room with crayons, overwhelming majority wont learn to do art in any reasonable level. If you put them into room with wood and knife, overwhelming majority wont discover woodworking techniques.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
> them being scared cause nothing works suddenly. // This "oh crap, I've bust it" moment is the precursor to learning! Tech tends to be too locked down nowadays, so those moments become fewer - you have to manufacture them.
- watwut 6y ago
  > This "oh crap, I've bust it" moment is the precursor to learning! Unless of course you end up with device you can't use and then go do something elsw. It is just not true that kids would universally figured it on their own, especially when the issue is deep in settings. Frankly, people here imagine idealised version of themselves and then expect it to be norm. That would be like artist imagining that all the kids love drawing and high quality crayons are all they need and then being shocked that most of them just can't do it. And double so kids for who computer is something expensive for work and not a toy. So if they broke it parent is locked out of work till they find someone who will fix it and the kid won't get access again. And tripple so kids who are not English native speakers and don't understand words on screens.
  - derefr 6y ago
    As far as I know, the obvious difference comes down to depravation. If you have a computer that does all sorts of important things, like work, or even playing games, then exploring how it works isn't the obvious first thing that comes to mind for interacting with it. But if you have a computer that doesn't really have any use-cases that you personally care about, exploring how it works is pretty much the only thing you there is to do, when playing around with it. Similarly, if you break your computer while exploring it, and you have plenty of other things to do, then you'll maybe give up on your explorations. But if you break your computer and you have nothing else to play with, you'll see the breakage as an obstacle in the way of your continued entertainment—sort of like you might see the Internet being down—and try to figure out how to get it back up and working again. You might not succeed, but it's the attempt to get it working that builds the "engineering mindset", not the success per se. I'm a programmer today mostly because: my parents weren't always around to bug; I didn't live near-enough to friends to always have them over or visit them; and I didn't own any video games, but merely rented them (mostly timed to when said friends came over.) Then, when I was 9-or-so, my family got a computer that ran Windows 98, had no Internet connection, and had no games installed. I "played" with it by poking around in MS Paint and discovering the hidden sets of system MIDI files; but also by doing weird things like making "Briefcases" just to see what they did; or creating desktop shortcuts to nothing-in-particular just so I could put some of the "cool" icons from pifmgr.dll on my desktop, as if I was collecting game power-ups.

andyjohnson0 6y ago

You're assuming that they have time and resources for even relatively unrestricted exploration. Judging from the article, that probably isn't the case for most of these children.

ducaale 6y ago

there was a TED talk about children in rural areas teaching themselves how to use a computer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0