6 ms·

It's hard to look at her work as anything but criminal when she used 20 fake identities to pull this off. Once she ran out what she could do under her own name

It's hard to look at her work as anything but criminal when she used 20 fake identities to pull this off. Once she ran out what she could do under her own name and started using fake ones, she crossed a line.

mkagenius 6y ago
> Once she ran out what she could do under her own name and started using fake ones How do you know this? This may be a pre-emptive strategy Also, as mentioned in other comments: She didn't use fake identities, she booked on the behalf of family and friends.
- corobo 6y ago
  Did they get the money?
  - foolmeonce 6y ago
    It says in the article that the insured traveller need not collect it. This was probably not a mistake in the terms, I.e. an employer buys employees and candidates tickets and wants to limit their own losses when the logistics fall through.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - nogabebop23 6y ago
      historically insurance companies have let you buy many types of insurance for anybody, naming yourself the beneficiary. Pretty tough to not be caught these days, but this do lead to the obvious insure => "terrible accident" => collect cycle. Even then they tended to get caught eventually. Herman Mudgett did this several times around the 1893 Chicago World's Fair.
literallycancer 6y ago
I don't see what's so much better about paying a hobo to sign some papers compared to using a fake ID. End result is identical.
- brmgb 6y ago
  > paying a hobo to sign some papers compared to using a fake ID Both are equally illegal in most parts of the world. Intentionally muddying your identity to defeat mechanisms put in place to avoid abuse is fraud. Contrary to what some people on HN seem to believe, most legal systems in the world don't look too kindly on people intentionally abusing contracts. If it can be shown you signed a contract knowing that your understanding of it differed from that of the other party with the goal of exploiting this difference of understanding, which is to say in bad faith, you are very likely to lose in court.
  - literallycancer 6y ago
    Some papers meaning power of attorney. People can generally let others represent them by signing a power of attorney. Hobos are people. Hobos can sign papers than let me get money from insurance company that can't price risk properly. Presumably they get a cut, but they could also just sign the papers in exchange for a small sum paid immediately. Details of arrangement between hobo and the representative are none of the insurance company's business.
- astura 6y ago
  Both are fraud
mcv 6y ago
I don't doubt it's criminal the way she did it, but I'm not so sure it would have been criminal had she done similar things to securities on the stock market. I mean, isn't this exactly what those people do?
- pc86 6y ago
  Nobody is claiming that if she did something similar in a completely different market it would have been criminal. Perhaps we should talk about what actually happened - this woman defrauding companies using fake identities - and not hypotheticals we're making up.
  - SkyBelow 6y ago
    But is the discussion purely a legal one? Or are we also discussing a moral/ethical view that looks at a given behavior by comparing it to other behaviors to notice times when there are inconsistencies in our laws?
    - pc86 6y ago
      It's important to discuss apples and apples though. Insurance is not a securities contract. So it can be completely reasonable that treating insurance contracts like options is illegal, immoral, or both. And achieving a moral end through immoral means rarely has no effect on the end. Even assuming her activity is moral (not conceding the point, but for the sake of argument), I have a hard time thinking it is still moral when she has to use fraudulent identities to get to that end, especially when that end is simply enriching herself.
  - FriendlyNormie 6y ago
    The “identities” are real people she knows. You can legally buy flight insurance on someone else’s behalf. Stop posting comments when you didn’t even read the article, you incredibly stupid fucking idiot.
z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
As if insurance companies aren't criminal themselves?
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Even without the fake identities, she committed insurance fraud. She found a loophole and abused it; that's not the fault of the loophole being there or the insurance companies, but the person abusing it.
- bosie 6y ago
  I am not a lawyer... couldn't the same argument be made about tax loopholes and companies 'absuing them'?
  - chki 6y ago
    Legally speaking there is a big difference between technical fraud (using fake identities etc) and so called tax loopholes, because those often refer to clever tax avoidance. Tax evasion is illegal obviously. But the usage of tax avoidance is often even required because companies would otherwise be liable in relationship to their shareholders. Edit: Reading your comment again, maybe my statement was already implied.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    A tax loophole is legal by definition. A loophole refers to an element of the law that allows some behavior. Insurance fraud is not legal.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      But the other poster only claimed that this was fraud because it abuses a loophole. So where is the line between a loophole being legal versus being fraud? Or, what is it that makes this fraud besides being a loophole?
      - rrook 6y ago
        Using fake/other identities is squarely in the realm of fraud, not loopholes, if that is what happened. Edit: The article details that part of the strategy employed was to attempt to get a refund for any flight that ended up not being delayed, which would probably qualify as fraudulent intent (I think? IANAL).
SkyBelow 6y ago
On a moral level, how does this differ from companies spinning up LLCs to gain advantage in deals being made? Consider Disney doing it so that they could buy land without people realizing who the buyer was.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  LLCs are traceable by ownership. In most cases it's an obfuscation, not straight up fraud. The man on the street isn't doing M&A work so they're not going to chase down the history and pedigree of each brand.
- spennant 6y ago
  She impersonated real people.
- burkaman 6y ago
  It doesn't, they're both wrong.

mkagenius 6y ago

> Once she ran out what she could do under her own name and started using fake ones How do you know this? This may be a pre-emptive strategy Also, as mentioned in other comments: She didn't use fake identities, she booked on the behalf of family and friends.

corobo 6y ago
Did they get the money?
- foolmeonce 6y ago
  It says in the article that the insured traveller need not collect it. This was probably not a mistake in the terms, I.e. an employer buys employees and candidates tickets and wants to limit their own losses when the logistics fall through.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    historically insurance companies have let you buy many types of insurance for anybody, naming yourself the beneficiary. Pretty tough to not be caught these days, but this do lead to the obvious insure => "terrible accident" => collect cycle. Even then they tended to get caught eventually. Herman Mudgett did this several times around the 1893 Chicago World's Fair.

literallycancer 6y ago

I don't see what's so much better about paying a hobo to sign some papers compared to using a fake ID. End result is identical.

brmgb 6y ago
> paying a hobo to sign some papers compared to using a fake ID Both are equally illegal in most parts of the world. Intentionally muddying your identity to defeat mechanisms put in place to avoid abuse is fraud. Contrary to what some people on HN seem to believe, most legal systems in the world don't look too kindly on people intentionally abusing contracts. If it can be shown you signed a contract knowing that your understanding of it differed from that of the other party with the goal of exploiting this difference of understanding, which is to say in bad faith, you are very likely to lose in court.
- literallycancer 6y ago
  Some papers meaning power of attorney. People can generally let others represent them by signing a power of attorney. Hobos are people. Hobos can sign papers than let me get money from insurance company that can't price risk properly. Presumably they get a cut, but they could also just sign the papers in exchange for a small sum paid immediately. Details of arrangement between hobo and the representative are none of the insurance company's business.
astura 6y ago
Both are fraud

mcv 6y ago

I don't doubt it's criminal the way she did it, but I'm not so sure it would have been criminal had she done similar things to securities on the stock market. I mean, isn't this exactly what those people do?

pc86 6y ago
Nobody is claiming that if she did something similar in a completely different market it would have been criminal. Perhaps we should talk about what actually happened - this woman defrauding companies using fake identities - and not hypotheticals we're making up.
- SkyBelow 6y ago
  But is the discussion purely a legal one? Or are we also discussing a moral/ethical view that looks at a given behavior by comparing it to other behaviors to notice times when there are inconsistencies in our laws?
  - pc86 6y ago
    It's important to discuss apples and apples though. Insurance is not a securities contract. So it can be completely reasonable that treating insurance contracts like options is illegal, immoral, or both. And achieving a moral end through immoral means rarely has no effect on the end. Even assuming her activity is moral (not conceding the point, but for the sake of argument), I have a hard time thinking it is still moral when she has to use fraudulent identities to get to that end, especially when that end is simply enriching herself.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  The “identities” are real people she knows. You can legally buy flight insurance on someone else’s behalf. Stop posting comments when you didn’t even read the article, you incredibly stupid fucking idiot.

z3ncyberpunk 6y ago

As if insurance companies aren't criminal themselves?

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

Even without the fake identities, she committed insurance fraud. She found a loophole and abused it; that's not the fault of the loophole being there or the insurance companies, but the person abusing it.

bosie 6y ago
I am not a lawyer... couldn't the same argument be made about tax loopholes and companies 'absuing them'?
- chki 6y ago
  Legally speaking there is a big difference between technical fraud (using fake identities etc) and so called tax loopholes, because those often refer to clever tax avoidance. Tax evasion is illegal obviously. But the usage of tax avoidance is often even required because companies would otherwise be liable in relationship to their shareholders. Edit: Reading your comment again, maybe my statement was already implied.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  A tax loophole is legal by definition. A loophole refers to an element of the law that allows some behavior. Insurance fraud is not legal.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    But the other poster only claimed that this was fraud because it abuses a loophole. So where is the line between a loophole being legal versus being fraud? Or, what is it that makes this fraud besides being a loophole?
    - rrook 6y ago
      Using fake/other identities is squarely in the realm of fraud, not loopholes, if that is what happened. Edit: The article details that part of the strategy employed was to attempt to get a refund for any flight that ended up not being delayed, which would probably qualify as fraudulent intent (I think? IANAL).

SkyBelow 6y ago

On a moral level, how does this differ from companies spinning up LLCs to gain advantage in deals being made? Consider Disney doing it so that they could buy land without people realizing who the buyer was.

blaser-waffle 6y ago
LLCs are traceable by ownership. In most cases it's an obfuscation, not straight up fraud. The man on the street isn't doing M&A work so they're not going to chase down the history and pedigree of each brand.
spennant 6y ago
She impersonated real people.
burkaman 6y ago
It doesn't, they're both wrong.