6 ms·

There needs to be a psychology study done with cops to understand why they act the way they do. I believe there's an underlying problem in how they are trained

There needs to be a psychology study done with cops to understand why they act the way they do. I believe there's an underlying problem in how they are trained or something else because police brutality is kind of a global phenomenon. When someone kills or severely hurts the people they are supposed to protect, it seems like there's something else going on. I've been in a few protests and I can easily say that I have never seen more hatred in someone's eyes other than the cops that were beating up people.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
raxxorrax 6y ago
Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons. It is a significant risk for safety of course. But if you look at the data, the often believed stereotype of US police being glorified cowboys seems to be quite untrue. Frankly I am a bit cynical about politicians declaring the need for police reform. In my country protests are regularly "subdued" with excessive violence but the decision to handle it this way comes from the top, not from police officers. I think clearer legal rules would help. Also maybe teaching people how to behave in case law enforcement conducts a search. The ability for surveillance and raiding homes should certainly be under intense scrutiny. Because I think the fear of decision makers is the main driver we might see some problems. > I've been in a few protests and I can easily say that I have never seen more hatred in someone's eyes other than the cops that were beating up people. That can be true for protesters and criminals too. I am aware of the irony of mentioning them in the same sentence. But the "psychology" study should show, that police is just often required to just do the dirty work and some might adjust to the crime they see in their daily routines. The systematic problems are programs like war on drugs or excessive militarization.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons Imagine being legally allowed to own and carry a gun and getting killed because you legally own and carry your gun. How is that logic? https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/06/22/philando-castile-facebook-and-dashcam-full-mashup-video-ctn.cnn https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/06/22/philando-castil...
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Also Breonna Taylor: Kentucky is a "castle doctrine" state, where it's legal to shoot intruders. So the police arrived at her home to serve a no-knock warrant, her boyfriend shot at the intruders, and the police returned fire and killed her.
- vegai_ 6y ago
  > Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons. Not most. Ireland, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Maldives have police officers work unarmed. Are there others?
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    That wasn't expressed clearly, I meant civilians not generally being allowed to carry weapons. If you can expect people to be unarmed, you have a lot less tension in police interactions.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  > Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained There have been multiple instances where the us police shot someone and fired more bullets in this situation than the while german police in a whole year. And i don't mean big standoffs but shooting a single person. /edit: in 2018 the german police fired a total of 54 bullets on persona killing 11. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_i...
  - sethammons 6y ago
    I agree that police violence and brutality is at unacceptable levels. However, number of bullets fired may not be a good statistic. My understanding is US police officers are trained to fire the whole magazine of rounds.
    - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
      > My understanding is US police officers are trained to fire the whole magazine of rounds. No, this is incorrect. Police are trained to stop a threat. Handguns despite what you see in movies are actually quite poor at doing this, so the accepted and common doctrine is “at least 5-6 rounds center mass”. This is in life or desth situations where that person must be stopped or someone else will die. If police were trained for one and reassess, they would shoot one. Trained for two; and they’ll a lot two regardless if they have a good sight picture after the first shot or not. So the training is “stop the threat”, be prepared to shoot 5 rounds center mass as quickly as possible, move, maintain a sight picture, do all the things you need to do but focus on the target first and gun and number of bullets second.
deepersprout 6y ago
> because police brutality is kind of a global phenomenon No it's not. Police in Europe is, on average, very kind. When they stop you, you don't have to be afraid of anything, and more often than not you stop them to ask for help, even if it's just to ask for directions.
- torb-xyz 6y ago
  I know it's tempting to do the whole ”oh that's a problem over in terrible USA” (a very common european way of thinking) but I'd be careful about it. Granted I think european police is less violent than US (a low bar), but to say that we don't have a problem with this at all is pretty naive. Just look at how french or swedish police have responded to black lives matters protests for example.
  - hansbo 6y ago
    What are you referring to? I live in Sweden, and have not seen news regarding police brutality during the BLM protests.
    - pera 6y ago
      I believe Sweden requires a bachelors degree and 2.5 years of training to become a cop. In the US it's just a high school diploma and 4 to 6 months of training depending the state.
  - pnako 6y ago
    Right now the French police is protesting against their own boss (minister of the interior, Castaner) because he went with the BLM narrative and basically called them racist. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53022073 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53022073
    - hef19898 6y ago
      Back during Sarkozy'sreign as President,there were riotscaused by the death of a coupe of youth being persued by police. So yeah, they have a problem in France. One that should be addressed.
tprice7 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... The rate of police killings is vastly higher in the US than any other Western country. So something is going on there that is not a universal phenomenon.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  People in US have too many guns. Cops are afraid for their life and use preventive violence.
  - sschueller 6y ago
    Switzerland has a lot of guns yet we don't have this police issue here.
    - webmaven 6y ago
      Aren't those Swiss guns mostly rifles, rather than handguns?
    - jpxw 6y ago
      How many police are killed in Switzerland per year?
      - lm28469 6y ago
        What's your argument here ? Police brutality is ok because US police officers are more prone to being killed ? By now there are thousands of videos clearly showing people not resisting, sometimes not even participating in any crime, being beaten and/or killed by the police, it's not normal and no one should defend that. Gun violence in the US is the symptom of very deep problems, you can't consider it just by itself while disregarding the societal issues being it.
        GhostVII 6y ago
uxcolumbo 6y ago
Big part is probably the training. Search for Dave Grossman / Killology on youtube for some videos. Here is a bit more info: https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/06/05/killology-is-not-a-satirical-field-police-training-methods-and-lethal-shootings/ https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/06/05/killology-is-not-a-...
tjbrennan 6y ago
I recently learned of Dave Grossman and his police training courses that appear to encourage murder[0]. I'm not sure how prolific his teaching is, but it says a lot about the fearful mindset these officers have. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_(author) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_(author)
arianvanp 6y ago
I was very surprised to hear a cop in the US only gets 3-6 months of training. Here in the Netherlands _basic_ education is 3 years; and then you have another few years to specialize into a specific topic (abuse, fraud, forensics, narcotics..).
- Pandabob 6y ago
  Yup, same here in Finland. You get an undergrad degree when going to the police academy.
liberal_098 6y ago
> brutality is kind of a global phenomenon I am afraid that it is not limited by police. You can see it everywhere. For example, downvoting a post with an alternative opinion and trying to have one opinion is a sign that you will be a good policeman. People like diversity only if it is a minor deviation which in this sense only confirm the dominance of one opinion. And this behavior is visible almost everywhere: police, governments, protests against police, forum moderation etc.
toofy 6y ago
It really isn’t like this everywhere, not at all. I lived for a number of years on a caribbean island–modern, mix of people, pretty crowded, but a police force that was just cool af. They just didn’t get aggressive unless it was absolutely, positively, unquestionably a life or death situation. They weren’t invisible, but they weren’t anywhere near as pervasive as we see in US cities. And I never felt unsafe there. I would walk through the worst parts of the cities at night and no one bothered you. Sure, there was crime, but basically the same shit you see in US cities where the cops everywhere and hyper-aggressive. There is something going on with our cops and it’s a large and very deep cultural problem. Other places have police who are drastically scaled back and the quality of life is so much better. I’m guessing unless we alter our policing structures to where our police understand they need to make the overall community’s day to day quality of life better, these massive cracks are going to continue to widen. Again, there were far less police and the world did not fall apart, the daily quality of life was significantly higher. One of the major hurdles we need to get over is the rather large amount of people (and many of the police also belong to this group) who just don’t understand that people have different interests. A bad analogy, but this is a group of people who rage out when someone has pink or green hair. It’s not enough for them to personally choose to have a buzzcut, they’re furious that everyone else doesn’t also have one. I could probably come up with a better analogy, but I think one of the answers is in there. I’m not sure how we convince those people to live and let live, because at the heart of our policing emergency is that thought process.
bjourne 6y ago
My theory is that they are bored. Violent crime is rapidly declining in both the US and Europe. To few real criminals to act out on so they take out their anger on peaceful protestors instead. Like what would developers do if there was no bugs to fix or features to implement? They would refactor the shit out of the code base.
catsdanxe 6y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

raxxorrax 6y ago

Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons. It is a significant risk for safety of course. But if you look at the data, the often believed stereotype of US police being glorified cowboys seems to be quite untrue. Frankly I am a bit cynical about politicians declaring the need for police reform. In my country protests are regularly "subdued" with excessive violence but the decision to handle it this way comes from the top, not from police officers. I think clearer legal rules would help. Also maybe teaching people how to behave in case law enforcement conducts a search. The ability for surveillance and raiding homes should certainly be under intense scrutiny. Because I think the fear of decision makers is the main driver we might see some problems. > I've been in a few protests and I can easily say that I have never seen more hatred in someone's eyes other than the cops that were beating up people. That can be true for protesters and criminals too. I am aware of the irony of mentioning them in the same sentence. But the "psychology" study should show, that police is just often required to just do the dirty work and some might adjust to the crime they see in their daily routines. The systematic problems are programs like war on drugs or excessive militarization.

lm28469 6y ago
> considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons Imagine being legally allowed to own and carry a gun and getting killed because you legally own and carry your gun. How is that logic? https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/06/22/philando-castile-facebook-and-dashcam-full-mashup-video-ctn.cnn https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/06/22/philando-castil...
- pjc50 6y ago
  Also Breonna Taylor: Kentucky is a "castle doctrine" state, where it's legal to shoot intruders. So the police arrived at her home to serve a no-knock warrant, her boyfriend shot at the intruders, and the police returned fire and killed her.
vegai_ 6y ago
> Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained considering most countries do not allow to carry weapons. Not most. Ireland, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Maldives have police officers work unarmed. Are there others?
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  That wasn't expressed clearly, I meant civilians not generally being allowed to carry weapons. If you can expect people to be unarmed, you have a lot less tension in police interactions.
chefkoch 6y ago
> Especially compared to other countries, the US police seem to show quite the restrained There have been multiple instances where the us police shot someone and fired more bullets in this situation than the while german police in a whole year. And i don't mean big standoffs but shooting a single person. /edit: in 2018 the german police fired a total of 54 bullets on persona killing 11. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_i...
- sethammons 6y ago
  I agree that police violence and brutality is at unacceptable levels. However, number of bullets fired may not be a good statistic. My understanding is US police officers are trained to fire the whole magazine of rounds.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    > My understanding is US police officers are trained to fire the whole magazine of rounds. No, this is incorrect. Police are trained to stop a threat. Handguns despite what you see in movies are actually quite poor at doing this, so the accepted and common doctrine is “at least 5-6 rounds center mass”. This is in life or desth situations where that person must be stopped or someone else will die. If police were trained for one and reassess, they would shoot one. Trained for two; and they’ll a lot two regardless if they have a good sight picture after the first shot or not. So the training is “stop the threat”, be prepared to shoot 5 rounds center mass as quickly as possible, move, maintain a sight picture, do all the things you need to do but focus on the target first and gun and number of bullets second.

deepersprout 6y ago

> because police brutality is kind of a global phenomenon No it's not. Police in Europe is, on average, very kind. When they stop you, you don't have to be afraid of anything, and more often than not you stop them to ask for help, even if it's just to ask for directions.

torb-xyz 6y ago
I know it's tempting to do the whole ”oh that's a problem over in terrible USA” (a very common european way of thinking) but I'd be careful about it. Granted I think european police is less violent than US (a low bar), but to say that we don't have a problem with this at all is pretty naive. Just look at how french or swedish police have responded to black lives matters protests for example.
- hansbo 6y ago
  What are you referring to? I live in Sweden, and have not seen news regarding police brutality during the BLM protests.
  - pera 6y ago
    I believe Sweden requires a bachelors degree and 2.5 years of training to become a cop. In the US it's just a high school diploma and 4 to 6 months of training depending the state.
- pnako 6y ago
  Right now the French police is protesting against their own boss (minister of the interior, Castaner) because he went with the BLM narrative and basically called them racist. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53022073 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53022073
  - hef19898 6y ago
    Back during Sarkozy'sreign as President,there were riotscaused by the death of a coupe of youth being persued by police. So yeah, they have a problem in France. One that should be addressed.

tprice7 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... The rate of police killings is vastly higher in the US than any other Western country. So something is going on there that is not a universal phenomenon.

vbezhenar 6y ago
People in US have too many guns. Cops are afraid for their life and use preventive violence.
- sschueller 6y ago
  Switzerland has a lot of guns yet we don't have this police issue here.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    Aren't those Swiss guns mostly rifles, rather than handguns?
  - jpxw 6y ago
    How many police are killed in Switzerland per year?
    - lm28469 6y ago
      What's your argument here ? Police brutality is ok because US police officers are more prone to being killed ? By now there are thousands of videos clearly showing people not resisting, sometimes not even participating in any crime, being beaten and/or killed by the police, it's not normal and no one should defend that. Gun violence in the US is the symptom of very deep problems, you can't consider it just by itself while disregarding the societal issues being it.
      - GhostVII 6y ago

uxcolumbo 6y ago

Big part is probably the training. Search for Dave Grossman / Killology on youtube for some videos. Here is a bit more info: https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/06/05/killology-is-not-a-satirical-field-police-training-methods-and-lethal-shootings/ https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/06/05/killology-is-not-a-...

tjbrennan 6y ago

I recently learned of Dave Grossman and his police training courses that appear to encourage murder[0]. I'm not sure how prolific his teaching is, but it says a lot about the fearful mindset these officers have. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_(author) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Grossman_(author)

arianvanp 6y ago

I was very surprised to hear a cop in the US only gets 3-6 months of training. Here in the Netherlands _basic_ education is 3 years; and then you have another few years to specialize into a specific topic (abuse, fraud, forensics, narcotics..).

Pandabob 6y ago
Yup, same here in Finland. You get an undergrad degree when going to the police academy.

liberal_098 6y ago

> brutality is kind of a global phenomenon I am afraid that it is not limited by police. You can see it everywhere. For example, downvoting a post with an alternative opinion and trying to have one opinion is a sign that you will be a good policeman. People like diversity only if it is a minor deviation which in this sense only confirm the dominance of one opinion. And this behavior is visible almost everywhere: police, governments, protests against police, forum moderation etc.

toofy 6y ago

It really isn’t like this everywhere, not at all. I lived for a number of years on a caribbean island–modern, mix of people, pretty crowded, but a police force that was just cool af. They just didn’t get aggressive unless it was absolutely, positively, unquestionably a life or death situation. They weren’t invisible, but they weren’t anywhere near as pervasive as we see in US cities. And I never felt unsafe there. I would walk through the worst parts of the cities at night and no one bothered you. Sure, there was crime, but basically the same shit you see in US cities where the cops everywhere and hyper-aggressive. There is something going on with our cops and it’s a large and very deep cultural problem. Other places have police who are drastically scaled back and the quality of life is so much better. I’m guessing unless we alter our policing structures to where our police understand they need to make the overall community’s day to day quality of life better, these massive cracks are going to continue to widen. Again, there were far less police and the world did not fall apart, the daily quality of life was significantly higher. One of the major hurdles we need to get over is the rather large amount of people (and many of the police also belong to this group) who just don’t understand that people have different interests. A bad analogy, but this is a group of people who rage out when someone has pink or green hair. It’s not enough for them to personally choose to have a buzzcut, they’re furious that everyone else doesn’t also have one. I could probably come up with a better analogy, but I think one of the answers is in there. I’m not sure how we convince those people to live and let live, because at the heart of our policing emergency is that thought process.

bjourne 6y ago

My theory is that they are bored. Violent crime is rapidly declining in both the US and Europe. To few real criminals to act out on so they take out their anger on peaceful protestors instead. Like what would developers do if there was no bugs to fix or features to implement? They would refactor the shit out of the code base.

catsdanxe 6y ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y