16 ms·

Well, I honestly can say, that a hole dose of ketamine might change you in ways you can't comprehend before you go into it. It made me view consciousness as som

Well, I honestly can say, that a hole dose of ketamine might change you in ways you can't comprehend before you go into it. It made me view consciousness as something special, not entirely captured by physical laws. It is hard to explain, but beware before you enter. It changes you.

pinopinopino 6y ago
It is not bad though, I feel happier now, more complete as person.
eternalny1 6y ago
I was shocked when I dislocated my shoulder and they gave me IV Ketamine. I got that same experience, right there in the emergency room, sanctioned by the medical professionals.
- AYBABTME 6y ago
  I also received a dose when I broke and dislocated my ankle. The experience was incredible, quite enlightening, despite the fact that most of what I could see was my pain as a sore spot on a multicoloured "wall". To sum up the experience, I felt like "I" was a disassembled geometric form, and my external point of view looked at the form and coldly contemplated, mostly, the pain visible on the wall. It left a profound effect on me. Gave me a perspective about myself that I can't forget. If it was legal and there was a safe way to do this again, I'd like to see how it's like when you're not in atrocious pain.
  - pinopinopino 6y ago
    That is the keypoint, it gives you a perspective you can't forget.
  - loceng 6y ago
    I believe it was exposing you to the underlying geometric shapes (including more complex ones that form screens and mapping references) that exist or form relating to fundamental physics, which our brain's have evolved to not pay attention to or perceive - at least for most people because seeing visually that level of detail would take away from your vision or perception of the present surroundings which arguably is more important for survival; in essence the mind is paying attention to it, however it is overshadowed by the stimuli coming and being analyzed from the physical body - I think this is also why ketamine is finding psychiatric use, as it can clear or remove physical blocks to allow people to see and process underlying energy that they're otherwise blocked from feeling (enough) to process them. I had a similar experience during the beginning of a ketamine IV infusion that I was doing to see if I could treat central sensitization that I have: as I was disconnecting from feeling my body, I could visualize feelings in my body - literally seeing certain shapes. At one point a fear came to mind and then I could feel and experienced that fear-memory in a perfect sphere traveling down my body until it reached my root (root chakra, groin area) and presumably disappeared or dissipated, as did the actual feeling of fear contained in the sphere along with the memory associated with it. Ketamine IV infusions are legal and paid for in Canada for pain, and it's legal for psychiatric diagnosis if referred by your doctor - however not covered by our health system. Arguably the health system, practitioners, and regulators don't know enough and so need to move forward slowly until there's time for proper research and guidance.
    - AYBABTME 6y ago
      I don't relate to the description you provide, this isn't what happened.
      - loceng 6y ago
        'I could see was my pain as a sore spot on a multicoloured "wall".' All other stimuli forming you dissipated, so then you were seeing a flat representation, or screen, a map of your body and then perceived the spot radiating pain as a multicoloured spot on the wall/screen? That's what I took from that description.
  - dghughes 6y ago
    >If it was legal and there was a safe way to do this again, I'd like to see how it's like when you're not in atrocious pain. Maybe it has to be a combination of excruciating pain (endorphins) and ketamine.
  - non-entity 6y ago
    There are RC's that are supposedly ketamine analogues that are legal depending on where you live.
lordlic 6y ago
If you IV a single 24mg/kg dose like the sheep in the study, I suspect you won't be experiencing anything at all before you lose consciousness.
- bookofjoe 6y ago
  Concur. Standard IV dose in humans for general anesthesia is 0.5-1.0 mg/kg. (I'm a retired neurosurgical anesthesiologist who used ketamine for GA in around 500 patients over 38 years, and smaller IV/IM doses in perhaps 1,000 more individuals)
  - lordlic 6y ago
    I was confused by how low that was until I realized you meant per minute. I assume you use a higher dose at first to actually induce unconsciousness?
    - bookofjoe 6y ago
      No, I did NOT mean per minute. Ketamine dose for induction of unconsciousness/general anesthesia is 0.5-1.0 mg/kg as a bolus push over a few seconds. Ketamine comes as 100mg/cc and 10mg/cc: I always used the 10mg/cc formulation IV because it was easier to draw up the precise dose I wanted. Loss of consciousness takes 30 seconds to 1 minute for most people. I never used ketamine drips during anesthesia because it was just one more thing to have to track. Boluses every 30-60 minutes sufficed. For IM use in children and patients with no venous access, induction of general anesthesia is achieved with a dose of 5-10mg/kg. Here, the 100mg/cc formulation is superior since the volume to be injected is 1/10 that required with the 10mg/cc version.
      - lordlic 6y ago
        Ah, I see. I was conflating the IM and IV dosages; 0.5mg/kg seemed much too low to induce general anesthesia from what I vaguely remembered of IM dosages. Thank you for elaborating.
      - 6y ago
pinopinopino 6y ago
Let me try to explain. Ketamine does something with your morals it seems. It does a remoralization in a way. E.g. it won't turn you into something you aren't. It is a relative process. It gives you a space to watch yourself from an neutral judgement free observer point of view. It is really weird.
- pinopinopino 6y ago
  You somehow find out what is really important to you and what is not and see that really clearly. That is what happened to me after a couple of experiences. And I acted on it and I am not sad about it. Now, I don't do it that often. But if you choose to do ketamine, you are in for a ride.
  - samstave 6y ago
    Is this same/similar to DMT?
    - pinopinopino 6y ago
      Never did DMT, so can't really say. Sorry :) It is a highly personal experience, which is difficult to share with others though. I think it is similar in the sense, that you can't dismiss it. It is very real for you personally. I am not a spiritual guy, you know? I think that makes it a bit hard to think about it. It didn't make my spiritual or anything or less grounded in my life.
    - loceng 6y ago
      I eventually hope to write a book detailing the differences, among other things, however it will likely be years (time doesn't really exist though eh) - but if interested once I finally release it then you can email me matt@engn.com. Contemplating doing a pay-what-you-want model for it or refund provided if you've read it.
    - andybak 6y ago
      No. Nothing is like ketamine. I mean nothing is like DMT but you can see some parallels with acid is mushrooms. But ketamine is utterly different to anything else I've tried.
mc32 6y ago
Would it have any therapeutic effect for people convicted of violent crimes? Even white collar crimes like embezzlement? Obviously they’d have to volunteer for something like that but it’d be interesting to see if it changes them for he better or worse...
- pinopinopino 6y ago
  I think you need to be really careful with that.
- cyphar 6y ago
  It would probably be a bad idea to apply the criminal justice theory from A Clockwork Orange to the real world.
  - remote_phone 6y ago
    Clockwork orange is exactly what I thought as well.
- rozab 6y ago
  I think more conventional entheogens and empathogens like LSD, psilocybin, 2CB and MDMA are far more promising. Bear in mind that violent criminals are highly likely to be mentally ill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Prison_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Prison_Experiment
  - mc32 6y ago
    That study looks interesting though some question methods. It’d be interesting to have a thorough follow up and see if it tracks closely with the really positive results of the Concord study.
- crocodiletears 6y ago
  I'd be worried about the state endorsing or experimenting with this, even as a voluntary measure. Coming withing even an AU of normalizing pharmacologically 'correcting' asocial behavior could put us on a very dark path.
lostmyoldone 6y ago
There's more than a few clues that at least some depressions, or rather - depression like states - on short timescales are closely related to our brains dynamic "electrochemical" state than of anything else, as disrupting the dynamics in different ways appear to - sometimes - profoundly affect depressed states. On longer timescales it seems even more complex. Similarly to ECT, some people revert to a depressive state somewhat quickly after being affected by various drugs, while others do not. I sometimes think that when we start understanding depression, we'll have to reevaluate our perspectives on both ourselves, society, and humanity as such much more than most are comfortable with. Not in any mysterious sense, but more in the sense that depression on an individual level might very well be a symptom of society level issues, as well as it is an extremely debilitating psychiatric condition. While there are markers for depression in individuals, I can't escape the feeling that to some extent, it's nothing but a convoluted way to encode tolerance levels to what is in reality a "toxic" surrounding. Exactly what the toxicity could be is not at all clear, but I don't expect it'll have a high compatibility with eg economic interests in any way, shape, or form.
- pas 6y ago
  This seems very interesting, could you point at some sources for this? Thanks!
- mrfusion 6y ago
  I get super depression on the day after I exercise way too much. Especially jogging or sprinting and pushing myself. Too much weight lifting too. I’ve always found it to be the strangest thing and it was quite a shock when I realized the cause. It clears up completely the third day.
  - cultofmetatron 6y ago
    This happens to me as well! My working theory is the that I deplete all the dopamine during the run. I'll usually feel total contentment for awhile before it settles in. Since I don't have anything to be depressed about in general, its easy to see it for what it is and wait it out with some nutritious food and sleep. Eat fish after exercise. It helps
boomboomsubban 6y ago
From the article >“It’s likely that the brain oscillations caused by the drug may prevent information from the outside world being processed normally. It sounds like the parts of your brain that understand physical laws was not correctly communicating with the part that controls consciousness.
empath75 6y ago
I’ve done doses of ketamine like that before and just sort of entered a dreamlike state where I was floating though crystals or something like that. I didn’t have any sort of profound revelation from it at all. On the other hand the night I did LSD and ketamine at the same time— woah boy. I came out of it saying to someone that we were eternal pure beings trapped in monkey bodies by a cruel and malicious god. I don’t remember saying that, but they told me about it afterwards. It was especially awkward because i was A) making out with her at the time and B) I had just met her at a rave. How I managed to make out with a complete stranger while on a cosmic journey of discovery in another dimension, I have no idea, given that I usually couldn’t accomplish it when I was fully on planet earth. We’re still friends, funnily enough.

pinopinopino 6y ago

It is not bad though, I feel happier now, more complete as person.

eternalny1 6y ago

I was shocked when I dislocated my shoulder and they gave me IV Ketamine. I got that same experience, right there in the emergency room, sanctioned by the medical professionals.

AYBABTME 6y ago
I also received a dose when I broke and dislocated my ankle. The experience was incredible, quite enlightening, despite the fact that most of what I could see was my pain as a sore spot on a multicoloured "wall". To sum up the experience, I felt like "I" was a disassembled geometric form, and my external point of view looked at the form and coldly contemplated, mostly, the pain visible on the wall. It left a profound effect on me. Gave me a perspective about myself that I can't forget. If it was legal and there was a safe way to do this again, I'd like to see how it's like when you're not in atrocious pain.
- pinopinopino 6y ago
  That is the keypoint, it gives you a perspective you can't forget.
- loceng 6y ago
  I believe it was exposing you to the underlying geometric shapes (including more complex ones that form screens and mapping references) that exist or form relating to fundamental physics, which our brain's have evolved to not pay attention to or perceive - at least for most people because seeing visually that level of detail would take away from your vision or perception of the present surroundings which arguably is more important for survival; in essence the mind is paying attention to it, however it is overshadowed by the stimuli coming and being analyzed from the physical body - I think this is also why ketamine is finding psychiatric use, as it can clear or remove physical blocks to allow people to see and process underlying energy that they're otherwise blocked from feeling (enough) to process them. I had a similar experience during the beginning of a ketamine IV infusion that I was doing to see if I could treat central sensitization that I have: as I was disconnecting from feeling my body, I could visualize feelings in my body - literally seeing certain shapes. At one point a fear came to mind and then I could feel and experienced that fear-memory in a perfect sphere traveling down my body until it reached my root (root chakra, groin area) and presumably disappeared or dissipated, as did the actual feeling of fear contained in the sphere along with the memory associated with it. Ketamine IV infusions are legal and paid for in Canada for pain, and it's legal for psychiatric diagnosis if referred by your doctor - however not covered by our health system. Arguably the health system, practitioners, and regulators don't know enough and so need to move forward slowly until there's time for proper research and guidance.
  - AYBABTME 6y ago
    I don't relate to the description you provide, this isn't what happened.
    - loceng 6y ago
      'I could see was my pain as a sore spot on a multicoloured "wall".' All other stimuli forming you dissipated, so then you were seeing a flat representation, or screen, a map of your body and then perceived the spot radiating pain as a multicoloured spot on the wall/screen? That's what I took from that description.
- dghughes 6y ago
  >If it was legal and there was a safe way to do this again, I'd like to see how it's like when you're not in atrocious pain. Maybe it has to be a combination of excruciating pain (endorphins) and ketamine.
- non-entity 6y ago
  There are RC's that are supposedly ketamine analogues that are legal depending on where you live.

lordlic 6y ago

If you IV a single 24mg/kg dose like the sheep in the study, I suspect you won't be experiencing anything at all before you lose consciousness.

bookofjoe 6y ago
Concur. Standard IV dose in humans for general anesthesia is 0.5-1.0 mg/kg. (I'm a retired neurosurgical anesthesiologist who used ketamine for GA in around 500 patients over 38 years, and smaller IV/IM doses in perhaps 1,000 more individuals)
- lordlic 6y ago
  I was confused by how low that was until I realized you meant per minute. I assume you use a higher dose at first to actually induce unconsciousness?
  - bookofjoe 6y ago
    No, I did NOT mean per minute. Ketamine dose for induction of unconsciousness/general anesthesia is 0.5-1.0 mg/kg as a bolus push over a few seconds. Ketamine comes as 100mg/cc and 10mg/cc: I always used the 10mg/cc formulation IV because it was easier to draw up the precise dose I wanted. Loss of consciousness takes 30 seconds to 1 minute for most people. I never used ketamine drips during anesthesia because it was just one more thing to have to track. Boluses every 30-60 minutes sufficed. For IM use in children and patients with no venous access, induction of general anesthesia is achieved with a dose of 5-10mg/kg. Here, the 100mg/cc formulation is superior since the volume to be injected is 1/10 that required with the 10mg/cc version.
    - lordlic 6y ago
      Ah, I see. I was conflating the IM and IV dosages; 0.5mg/kg seemed much too low to induce general anesthesia from what I vaguely remembered of IM dosages. Thank you for elaborating.
    - 6y ago

pinopinopino 6y ago

Let me try to explain. Ketamine does something with your morals it seems. It does a remoralization in a way. E.g. it won't turn you into something you aren't. It is a relative process. It gives you a space to watch yourself from an neutral judgement free observer point of view. It is really weird.

pinopinopino 6y ago
You somehow find out what is really important to you and what is not and see that really clearly. That is what happened to me after a couple of experiences. And I acted on it and I am not sad about it. Now, I don't do it that often. But if you choose to do ketamine, you are in for a ride.
- samstave 6y ago
  Is this same/similar to DMT?
  - pinopinopino 6y ago
    Never did DMT, so can't really say. Sorry :) It is a highly personal experience, which is difficult to share with others though. I think it is similar in the sense, that you can't dismiss it. It is very real for you personally. I am not a spiritual guy, you know? I think that makes it a bit hard to think about it. It didn't make my spiritual or anything or less grounded in my life.
  - loceng 6y ago
    I eventually hope to write a book detailing the differences, among other things, however it will likely be years (time doesn't really exist though eh) - but if interested once I finally release it then you can email me matt@engn.com. Contemplating doing a pay-what-you-want model for it or refund provided if you've read it.
  - andybak 6y ago
    No. Nothing is like ketamine. I mean nothing is like DMT but you can see some parallels with acid is mushrooms. But ketamine is utterly different to anything else I've tried.

mc32 6y ago

Would it have any therapeutic effect for people convicted of violent crimes? Even white collar crimes like embezzlement? Obviously they’d have to volunteer for something like that but it’d be interesting to see if it changes them for he better or worse...

pinopinopino 6y ago
I think you need to be really careful with that.
cyphar 6y ago
It would probably be a bad idea to apply the criminal justice theory from A Clockwork Orange to the real world.
- remote_phone 6y ago
  Clockwork orange is exactly what I thought as well.
rozab 6y ago
I think more conventional entheogens and empathogens like LSD, psilocybin, 2CB and MDMA are far more promising. Bear in mind that violent criminals are highly likely to be mentally ill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Prison_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Prison_Experiment
- mc32 6y ago
  That study looks interesting though some question methods. It’d be interesting to have a thorough follow up and see if it tracks closely with the really positive results of the Concord study.
crocodiletears 6y ago
I'd be worried about the state endorsing or experimenting with this, even as a voluntary measure. Coming withing even an AU of normalizing pharmacologically 'correcting' asocial behavior could put us on a very dark path.

lostmyoldone 6y ago

There's more than a few clues that at least some depressions, or rather - depression like states - on short timescales are closely related to our brains dynamic "electrochemical" state than of anything else, as disrupting the dynamics in different ways appear to - sometimes - profoundly affect depressed states. On longer timescales it seems even more complex. Similarly to ECT, some people revert to a depressive state somewhat quickly after being affected by various drugs, while others do not. I sometimes think that when we start understanding depression, we'll have to reevaluate our perspectives on both ourselves, society, and humanity as such much more than most are comfortable with. Not in any mysterious sense, but more in the sense that depression on an individual level might very well be a symptom of society level issues, as well as it is an extremely debilitating psychiatric condition. While there are markers for depression in individuals, I can't escape the feeling that to some extent, it's nothing but a convoluted way to encode tolerance levels to what is in reality a "toxic" surrounding. Exactly what the toxicity could be is not at all clear, but I don't expect it'll have a high compatibility with eg economic interests in any way, shape, or form.

pas 6y ago
This seems very interesting, could you point at some sources for this? Thanks!
mrfusion 6y ago
I get super depression on the day after I exercise way too much. Especially jogging or sprinting and pushing myself. Too much weight lifting too. I’ve always found it to be the strangest thing and it was quite a shock when I realized the cause. It clears up completely the third day.
- cultofmetatron 6y ago
  This happens to me as well! My working theory is the that I deplete all the dopamine during the run. I'll usually feel total contentment for awhile before it settles in. Since I don't have anything to be depressed about in general, its easy to see it for what it is and wait it out with some nutritious food and sleep. Eat fish after exercise. It helps

boomboomsubban 6y ago

From the article >“It’s likely that the brain oscillations caused by the drug may prevent information from the outside world being processed normally. It sounds like the parts of your brain that understand physical laws was not correctly communicating with the part that controls consciousness.

empath75 6y ago

I’ve done doses of ketamine like that before and just sort of entered a dreamlike state where I was floating though crystals or something like that. I didn’t have any sort of profound revelation from it at all. On the other hand the night I did LSD and ketamine at the same time— woah boy. I came out of it saying to someone that we were eternal pure beings trapped in monkey bodies by a cruel and malicious god. I don’t remember saying that, but they told me about it afterwards. It was especially awkward because i was A) making out with her at the time and B) I had just met her at a rave. How I managed to make out with a complete stranger while on a cosmic journey of discovery in another dimension, I have no idea, given that I usually couldn’t accomplish it when I was fully on planet earth. We’re still friends, funnily enough.