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High doses of ketamine can temporarily switch off the brain, say researchers
- emteycz 6y agoIs the person still the same person?
- vmception 6y agoloaded question: do you want to be the same person?
- ravenstine 6y agoThere's no such thing. We are different people second by second.
- 6510 6y agoThat must be annoying.
- danharaj 6y agoPanta rhei
- oceanghost 6y agoThe spiritual experiences on ketamine and other arylcyclohexylamine are intense. Far more intense for me than any other drug I've tried. I've had unexplainable experiences as well, where information retrieved in the drug state turned out was accurate.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago> where information retrieved in the drug state turned out was accurate. Can you give an example?
- softwarejosh 6y agohe thought his friend was going to come through the door with a glass of water and he did for some reason
- gruez 6y agowas this verified by a third party? because if it's just himself validating his own "predictions", it's not really surprising. After all, we get deja vu all the time, which also feels like you predicted something.
- DougN7 6y agoUnrelated to drugs, but I’ve had one deja vu where I wrote it down, showed it to a coworker, and then we both watched as it came to pass. I have no theory how that could have happened but it did. I do know it’s not just memory order hitting short/long term memory.
- oceanghost 6y agoI have had this experience as well without drugs.
- oceanghost 6y agoTwo times come to mind. The night I first met my brothers g/f- - I had a vision my brother and I would both have girl children, and shortly after, I would be separated from my child. And in sequence, we both had exactly one female child then I got a divorce. Another time, an ex of mine, we hadn't spoken in a year or so, nor did I have her number (back then I would throw out numbers frequently to prevent me from contacting them while using drugs). A voice said, "X is in trouble and needs your help." So, with no way to contact her, I posted on the app we had met on (Whisper), and she got in contact within five minutes. She said it was weird because, she hadn't used the app in months but she got bored, installed it, and my post was the first one she saw. And I said, "This is going to sound crazy, but I was doing drugs and got a 'message' that you were in trouble. Are you?" And she said, "I am actually..."
- jeffbee 6y agoThat’s the wonderful thing about drugs: they trigger the areas of the brain that normally signal an insight or epiphany, but without the hassle of having an actual epiphany. In reality you’re lying motionless on the floor for hours thinking nothing.
- kranner 6y agoYou're definitely thinking something, even if it is something banal made salient by the drugs.
- pinopinopino 6y agoThat is correct, but it is only half of the story. I think, I have to say it for the lack of a better word for it, but 'spiritual experiences' are worthwhile. They are not void of value. You shouldn't do it to often. But that is with all drugs.
- tasty_freeze 6y agoAges ago my next older brother told me that when he smoked pot he liked to sit and think because he had deep insights, and the right answer to what he was considering was clearer than in a sober state. He didn't smoke around me and I hadn't (and still haven't) smoked pot. One Saturday night he came home and it was obvious he was pretty baked. That is when he dropped one of his insight bombshells on me: Stevie Wonder is the Frank Sinatra of our generation. I had the same though you just made: maybe it wasn't that he had clearer insights, just the perception of it because other thoughts that might contradict the conclusion didn't cross his mind.
- neuralzen 6y ago"Universal love" said the cactus person... https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-the-cactus-person/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
- Valmar 6y agoWhy not post the actual source, rather than some second-hand clickbait? "Characteristic patterns of EEG oscillations in sheep (Ovis aries) induced by ketamine may explain the psychotropic effects seen in humans" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8?error=cookies_not_supported&code=8efd8d81-a3eb-4044-8208-2ea77d5a0eac https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8?error=coo...
- kf 6y ago...seems like the official press release of the paper so quite okay.
- spurdoman77 6y agoMy personal empirical research agrees with the headline.
- sneak 6y ago> Six of the sheep were given a single higher dose of ketamine, 24mg/kg. This is at the high end of the anaesthetic range. Initially, the same response was seen as with a lower dose. But within two minutes of administering the drug, the brain activity of five of these six sheep stopped completely, one of them for several minutes - a phenomenon that has never been seen before. You have taken 24mg/kg of ketamine before? I find that nearly impossible to believe. Approximately 15% of that dosage causes mammals to lose consciousness.
- codetrotter 6y agoWhat would happen to a human taking such a big dose? Brain damage? Death? Permanent coma? And would the outcome be the same even if monitored by healthcare professionals? Or would they be able to stop the person from taking damage from it?
- Johnjonjoan 6y ago"Ketamine abusers are known to take doses many times higher than those given to the sheep in this research. It is also likely that progressively higher doses have to be taken to get the same effect. The researchers say that such high doses can cause liver damage, may stop the heart, and be fatal."
- ketamine__ 6y agoIt is _really_ hard to find a fatality attributed to ketamine. Recreational users are known to take heroic doses. This sounds like pure speculation.
- unfunco 6y agoIn one go definitely, but for a 70kg person that's 1.6g, 1g of Ketamine is ~£10 in the United Kingdom, it's really not that out of the ordinary that someone would take 1-3g during the course of an evening.
- hprotagonist 6y agodepression: have you tried turning it off and then back on again? tongue in cheek, but i think the more we learn about mechanism of action the more it’s not the worst 1st order approximation.
- tsco77 6y agoKetamine, psilocybin and electro conclusive therapy are all similar in that regards. Ect is the definitive treatment of resistant depression, but if you can get the same effect without requiring a psychiatrist, anesthesiologist, cna, respiratory, and nursing, why wouldn't you?
- pinopinopino 6y agoWell, I honestly can say, that a hole dose of ketamine might change you in ways you can't comprehend before you go into it. It made me view consciousness as something special, not entirely captured by physical laws. It is hard to explain, but beware before you enter. It changes you.
- pinopinopino 6y agoIt is not bad though, I feel happier now, more complete as person.
- eternalny1 6y agoI was shocked when I dislocated my shoulder and they gave me IV Ketamine. I got that same experience, right there in the emergency room, sanctioned by the medical professionals.
- AYBABTME 6y agoI also received a dose when I broke and dislocated my ankle. The experience was incredible, quite enlightening, despite the fact that most of what I could see was my pain as a sore spot on a multicoloured "wall". To sum up the experience, I felt like "I" was a disassembled geometric form, and my external point of view looked at the form and coldly contemplated, mostly, the pain visible on the wall. It left a profound effect on me. Gave me a perspective about myself that I can't forget. If it was legal and there was a safe way to do this again, I'd like to see how it's like when you're not in atrocious pain.
- pinopinopino 6y agoThat is the keypoint, it gives you a perspective you can't forget.
- loceng 6y agoI believe it was exposing you to the underlying geometric shapes (including more complex ones that form screens and mapping references) that exist or form relating to fundamental physics, which our brain's have evolved to not pay attention to or perceive - at least for most people because seeing visually that level of detail would take away from your vision or perception of the present surroundings which arguably is more important for survival; in essence the mind is paying attention to it, however it is overshadowed by the stimuli coming and being analyzed from the physical body - I think this is also why ketamine is finding psychiatric use, as it can clear or remove physical blocks to allow people to see and process underlying energy that they're otherwise blocked from feeling (enough) to process them. I had a similar experience during the beginning of a ketamine IV infusion that I was doing to see if I could treat central sensitization that I have: as I was disconnecting from feeling my body, I could visualize feelings in my body - literally seeing certain shapes. At one point a fear came to mind and then I could feel and experienced that fear-memory in a perfect sphere traveling down my body until it reached my root (root chakra, groin area) and presumably disappeared or dissipated, as did the actual feeling of fear contained in the sphere along with the memory associated with it. Ketamine IV infusions are legal and paid for in Canada for pain, and it's legal for psychiatric diagnosis if referred by your doctor - however not covered by our health system. Arguably the health system, practitioners, and regulators don't know enough and so need to move forward slowly until there's time for proper research and guidance.
- softwarejosh 6y agoisnt ketamine a horse tranquillizer lol, doesnt seem like a stretch for it to be an anesthetic
- omginternets 6y agoEnough of anything can permanently switch off the brain. I really wish scientific reporters would at least attempt to use meaningful language in their headlines.
- kylebyproxy 6y ago> But within two minutes of administering the drug, the brain activity of five of these six sheep stopped completely, one of them for several minutes - a phenomenon that has never been seen before. ... > “A few minutes later their brains were functioning normally again - it was as though they had just been switched off and on.” Headline seems spot-on to me. What exactly is your gripe?
- fortran77 6y agoI think he's had too much ketamine.
- loceng 6y agoWe also currently have a poor to non-existent understanding of the mechanisms for how consciousness attaches itself to the body-mind.
- 6510 6y agoI think I had this reading HN one time.
- loceng 6y agoHopefully people will have an open mind reading my comment, however within spiritual circles it is somewhat known that many people can't tolerate doing any type of entheogen too many times; what that amount of times is and dosing where you lose complete connection will be subjective. I'm also not trying to suggest all changes that occur after going through such an experience is the act of "losing your soul or connection to your soul" - however that arguably is possibility at one end of the spectrum of possibilities. Some people seem fine doing Ayahuasca their whole lives, like shamans - whether they are now dependant on it and have regular access to it is another question, however other people through ego mind addiction (entheogens are powerful for breaking physical addictions, however are addictive for the mind) and force themselves into ceremonies or experience that they know they will regularly if not 100% of the time experience pure terror, not listening to their body's fear response for what it doesn't want to experience and is trying to guide them away from experiencing - instead their ego mind maintaining control and tricks them to continue; the body is inherently intelligent and part of the equation that needs to not be ignored to find balance and allowing your body's systems to guide you to optimal health, equilibrium.
- craftinator 6y ago> however within spiritual circles it is somewhat known Writing things like this is really losses credibility for you.
- downerending 6y agoI took that as those people, having had a chance to observe the behavior of these drugs on many occasions, are theorizing a phenomenon. In other words, science, or something like it.
- loceng 6y agoOh yeah? How else would you define the context of people who gather regularly in community in relation to spirituality or gatherings for ceremony? Curious what preconceptions and prejudices you have of who you classify that are automatically discredited in your mind because they use the term "spiritual circle" - or am I misunderstanding what in that sentence discredits me? Ever been to an Ayahuasca ceremony or talking circle? Just trying to get an idea of your own experiences.
- tezza 6y agoAnd people dancing on large doses of Ketamine clearly have little brain intervention. The K Hole must be the plug hole of one’s mind
- dkersten 6y agoDancing on ketamine is such a foreign concept to me. At low doses, its more like sit quietly because my muscles are so relaxed and at high doses (still low doses compared to the article) its lie on the floor while falling through the void. I couldn’t imagine physical activity in either case.
- thatcat 6y agoThere are multiple forms: esketamine, arketamine, and a racemic mixture of both of those. Es type is much more effective as anesthetic than other types so user could experience the hallucinogen effects while remaining sort of mobile.
- dkersten 6y agoSort of mobile, sure. I’ve been able to walk around on it. A bit wobbly, but doable. Dancing would be a level of exertion beyond that though.
- GordonS 6y agoWhen combined with a small amount of alcohol, small amounts of ketamine seem to potentiate the alcohol, but in a less "dirty" way than more alcohol would have. It feels stimulating and energising, almost like amphetamine without any jitters, and also seems to increase sociability. And because you haven't had much alcohol, you feel great the next day! Note we are talking small ketamine doses here, typically bumps of 25-50mg max.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- loceng 6y agoI have a hypothesis I am developing around this - in that our actual sensory coming from our physical body is how our consciousness actually stays grounded to the here and now; there's more parts and layers to it than that, however my own experiences suggest this is a mostly correct statement. Another part of my understanding logically suggests that you could disconnect from the energy from a historical part of you, thereby returning only to what is strongly imprinted via your brain's biology - but shedding or losing the more subtle energies and vibrations that would other provide more pressure or a higher concentration in the equations-algorithm of your brain/mind. This might not make much sense without more context which will take a book to structure.
- dbqpdb 6y agoSo I'm no scientician, but 24mg/kg is like 1.5g for an average human. I'm pretty sure that this would not only turn of a humans brain, it may cause it to burst into flames as well.
- ipnon 6y agoThe median lethal dose for people appears to be between 6g and 32g depending on method of administration. [0] https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml edit: After investigating, the source for this claim is the Merck Index from 1989, which is not readily available online. Anyone who would use the above information to determine the appropriate ketamine dose for themselves or someone else is a dangerous fool.
- nubb 6y agos/temporarily/permanently I partied a lot as a kid and this is a lethal dosage for humans.
- ipnon 6y agoThe median lethal dose for humans appears to be between 6g and 32g depending on the method of administration.[0] Drugs have different median lethal mg/kg dose ratios across species.[1] [0] https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose#Examples edit: After investigating, the source for this claim is the Merck Index from 1989, which is not readily available online. Anyone who would use the above information to determine the appropriate ketamine dose for themselves or someone else is a dangerous fool.
- smabie 6y agoI did too, and let me assure you that it is not.
- plerpin 6y agoNot surprised, vets already have been using ketamine to anesthetize reptiles.
- DudeInBasement 6y agoBut what about my reptile brain
- monadic2 6y agoIt's used to sedate humans, too: https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/14/ketamine-sedative-law-enforcement-elijah-mcclain/ https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/14/ketamine-sedative-law-...
- boomboomsubban 6y agoKetamine's use as a safe anesthetic for animals was why it was chosen for this experiment.
- sibeliuss 6y agoMy experience with Ketamine was that it was simply too much fun, too weird, and felt too good -- I had to distance myself from it, regarding it like some kind of psychedelic heroin. I can understand why it's addictive. However, it does have its purpose. I've heard of a lot of people cleaning up their lives through its application. And reading about it is always fascinating -- Stanislav Grof: https://realitysandwich.com/321100/my-ketamine-journeys-or-ketamine-and-the-enchantment-of-other-worlds/ https://realitysandwich.com/321100/my-ketamine-journeys-or-k...
- natch 6y agoI was lucky / unlucky enough to have one ketamine experience due to a shoulder dislocation. I cannot stress highly enough that I would not recommend it unless you are highly tolerant of some disturbing stuff. It was a very short (under 15 seconds), very intense, forced experience of being in essentially an insect mind that was shunted along a path of thought and movement in a 2D maze with no options whatsoever. It led to a very dark place with a surprise ending that felt hopeless beyond anything I could have imagined. The punchline was I learned in real time that not only was I dying (in the trip, not in real life) but also that the entire universe did not actually exist and never had; it had all been an illusion and a lie. And as I was learning this everything shrank down to a point and blinked out, no time for questioning, all gone. Fortunately at the same time a small part of me was watching the process from the side (in horror) and somehow at some level I had a distant inkling and ray of hope that it was all a trip. And then it was over and... extremely slow fade back to consciousness over 15 minutes or so. Very not recommended but very interesting.
- sandworm101 6y ago>> extremely slow fade back to consciousness over 15 minutes or so. Very not recommended but very interesting. Every been to a vet and heard the dogs waking up from surgery? Ketamine is the go-to drug for animals. They aren't howling because they are in pain.
- Mo3 6y ago.. and the part of you that watched all of this and was concious of it happening is the real you
- warent 6y agoThat's my understanding of it as well. All this about the universe ending, never existing, being an illusion and a lie, that's just the collapse of a ego. The lie it tells us so that we fight for its continued existence is that the other side of it is some kind of horrific oblivion. Actually, the other side is a serene wholeness. It is the source of beauty. The individual ego is a useful way for the universe to experience itself in a subject/object relationship and we should respect it for what it is, but a side-effect of confusing the real self with this flimsy thing is pain and suffering due to the delusion of separation. I invite anyone who has had this experience, rather than compartmentalizing it as a bad thing, to try and integrate it into life in productive ways. It can lead to some really wonderful things.
- UI_at_80x24 6y agoI have undergone several ketamine treatments for depression. I have had 1 positive session out of 9 total. Some trips were 'fun' others were not. My first experience with it was quite rough. The positive experience went as follows: pure nothingness. (I refer to it internally as `#cat brain >/dev/null`) It was incredible. Hope that I can silence all the noise in my brain. It was peace. It may have been zen. I've wanted to kill myself just so I can return to that level of peace. I haven't because I shouldn't. But it gives me hope that I won't feel this way forever. I have tried a variety of audio therapy and cognitive direction while undergoing treatment to assist the process. Examples include: (a) concentrated positive thoughts {thinking of a happy place/directed peaceful imagery} (b) "not thinking" just let the trip take me wherever it goes. {this may be the best course of treatment} (c) soothing sounds {nature sounds, music used while meditating, etc} (d) guided meditation The most recurrent theme I experienced (the trips would include visual and auditory hallucinations) would be repeating geometric patterns and a techo/dub-step style of music. These were pleasant experiences that I didn't mind, although I felt that they didn't quite do the trick.
- Marciplan 6y agoHey there. I hope you’re well on your way to feeling better/happy. Best of luck :)
- GordonS 6y agoIt feels like most drugs change your mood or appear to change your environment. The thing about k-hole level doses of ketamine is that it feels like it transports you to another place entirely - lot's of people speak of feeling the presence of multiple universes and timelines, and of feeling like they are moving between them. I have a friend who, after his first k-hole experience, was completely in awe of life and the universe for some time afterwards. He would become emotional and choked up talking about the beauty of it. He was also half way convinced that ketamine would allow him to travel through space and time to anywhere while in the hole. He couldn't wait to throw himself back into a hole so he could travel the torrent of the universe stream and explore further. Nobody here has mentioned Erowid yet - I highly recommend it if you want to read more about people's experiences while on ketamine, or indeed any other drug.
- GordonS 6y agoI wonder if this could be used in the treatment of brain injuries. Let's say someone comes into the ER with a brain bleed / stroke - could they induce a brain shutdown to help prevent further damage, while they worked on the injury?
- ben_stevenson 6y agoI've been working for a Ketamine Clinic the past few months, and it's fascinating to learn about (bunch of good resources here: https://www.fargoketamineclinic.com https://www.fargoketamineclinic.com ). While it can be incredibly addicting, it's also opening new research into solving depression. Because it works differently than traditional antidepressants by targeting the NMDA receptors and binding to them to increase glutamate, it could vastly help people with treatment resistant depression. The problem is that with high doses like this article suggests, it can be dangerous. So it's a complicated area.