12 ms·

On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

188 points by markdog12 6y ago

dgellow 6y ago
(2018)
brianwawok 6y ago
I suspect this is one of those topics that at some point, everyone will have just switched terms because it's not worth the hassle to fight these fights over and over again. Kind of a "I'm not wrong, but is it a good use of 20 hours a year to argue about this?"
- retox 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    TIL thanks!
- ajaimk 6y ago
  Looks like that's the very point the author is trying to make. We can't give in to the dictatorship of the Small Minority specially when the most intolerant people seem to scream the loudest.
  - crdrost 6y ago
    Oh HN, I weep for you. You trade compassionate impulses for paranoia about nonexistent dictatorships. You wish to have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too about topics like the power of words themselves — so that it’s “get off my back, my words do not have real power” but then this eats your very argument. If words DO have power, then you are legit hurting others: fix your shit. If words do not, then there is no point whining about the dangers of “dictators” telling you what words you can and can't use as it's all “who-gives-a-damn” anyway: and apparently these people before you give a damn, and if it is not too hard there is no excuse. This issue is not even a US-specific thing... I recall a Russian professor who got really hurt at some slides that showed metal links cracking around hands, “we are breaking the chains of existing physics methods,” as that has some really nasty power to make people uncomfortable if they are old enough to remember Stalin. I do not have a true solution, I am just sad. Because the true disease here is ego, is self-directed-ness, a cancer of me-me-me. Religions fix that, but good luck trying to promote that, heh. And the sort of people to be upset that “master-slave” makes reference to practices that have defined thousands of years of all nations’ history, are not likely to be ones to hear about the value of “emotionally intelligent leadership” or whatever the buzzword is now for not being a dick, and so that's not either. Truly depressing. As a minor historical footnote, it's not even accurate. Like the assumption is that slaves and masters are two different things, that having power and being property are two different states of being and it's impossible to be property while simultaneously having power. It's not just that those two concerns are obviously not opposites of each other... then you might say “well in practice...” But, like, it has also happened in history that slaves have occasionally ruled over nations[1]. They generally did well as rulers go, because a lot of history is really strong warlords coming to power and being extremely effective—perhaps even progressive and transformative—until they hand over the reins to their children who are not quite as talented as they were: and everything decays into a power and politics game, in all that nastiness. By choosing those without the right to a family to lead, that whole sordid business was avoided. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mamluk_sultans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mamluk_sultans
  - capitol_ 6y ago
    It's a bit unclear if you are just trying to express the authors views or your own, but if those are your own views I felt that it warranted a reply. The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority. But that is a deeply flawed system, if there wasn't any other rule than "majority wins" then all oppression of minorities becomes valid and all abuse where the perpetrators outnumber the victims. For a system to be fair there must exist more rules than that, for example "respect bodily autonomy" and "no oppression of minorities" and so on. Many of those rules are more fundamental than the "majority wins" rule and more important to uphold. If those are not your own views: Sorry for the rant.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority. No, it does not. "I don't want to live under dictator A" does not imply "I want to enslave A" or "I want to live under dictator B", it only implies that I do not want to live under dictator A.
- prepend 6y ago
  I agree and keep a set of topics that just aren’t worth the mental anguish to discuss. The list started in the 90s where every single time circumcision was brought up, it devolved into a few people who commented more and more while the rest of the participants commented less. I’ve wondered how this affects actual opinions but can’t talk about it. I also wonder what other topics I haven’t noticed but others have checked out of and I’m missing their participation.
  - microswan 6y ago
    This is the primary reason I no longer have accounts on "social media" (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc.). It's not only exhausting. It's dangerous. It takes one minor misstep in the eyes of another and you're faced with a torrent of misconstrued, misinformed people pushing a narrative that you're a horrible person. Next, you've lost your job, business, or worse. And it's only getting worse now that the idea "silence is complicity" is becoming popular. Nope, no thanks. I'll see myself out. I know a lot of people dislike anonymity because trolls and bad actors abuse it. However, it also means voices like mine, who strive to operate in good faith, get lost.
    - prepend 6y ago
      For me, it just got boring. Every discussion was pre-ordained. Even simple “fun” stuff like Star Wars would devolve into the same pseudo argument, oppositionalist statements. It’s not anonymity as Facebook is real people, who I think enjoy not being anonymous with getting internet points from people who enjoy it. I think the issue is no social contract with me. They aren’t my friends so they don’t care so much about me. Private messenger groups with 20 people who know each other seems fine. Interestingly, completely anonymous IRC on freenode results in good discussions.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Which means that the perpetually offended will dictate name changes every other year. If somebody argues that they cannot use $software because it contains $word as a variable in its source code somewhere, it's certainly not a good idea to argue with them. It also not a good idea to appease them by doing what they ask. Maybe developers should steer clear of Twitter so they don't get exposed to the problem. The only winning move is not to play, much like with ads. You don't train yourself to ignore ads or to not be influenced by them, you just use an ad blocker.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Yeah? I don't see evidence that every two years a new word gets brigaded in source code. Do you have examples of projects this has been happening to? If not, this seems like a slippery slope fallacy.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      You're right, master/slave and the new blacklist/whitelist demands did not have two years between them, not even this post is two years old.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        Both of those have been discussions for much longer than two years. There's at least a decade of discussions around those two examples. Edit: closer to two decades - in 2003 LA asked electronics manufacturers not to use the language. Presumably this was first discussed by the community. In the mid aughts, Microsoft was using allowlist/deny list. So, hardly a recent phenomena, and certainly not every two years. Yes, some projects have been faster or slower to adopt replacements for these terms, which is why you have seen a few discussions in the past few weeks on HN.
- tzs 6y ago
  I'm kind of looking forward to when it gets far enough along that path for malicious compliance [1] to start kicking in. I think the Twitter blow up will be quite interesting the first time someone, say, in a discussion about the 19th century plantation economy in the southern US talks about white managers/black workers or white leaders/black followers to avoid the racist master/slave terminology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicious_compliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicious_compliance
- apta 6y ago
  They should just ignore them. Leave the github issue open, just don't respond to it. Let's see where it gets those SJW's
retox 6y ago
Allow me to be offended on behalf of you, and if you aren't offended then you are a problem too.
- ethbro 6y ago
  I think of it as: 1) I am personally offended, so you should be offended to. 2) If you are not offended, then because my personal offense is rooted in a just cause, you are bad. 3) Because you are bad, I cannot have a dialog with you. Indeed, I should not even try, because the cause is just. MLK Jr had wise words on this, noticing the danger of a person convinced of their own righteousness. Much of the non-violence playbook was predicated on the tightrope that is (1) convincing someone to believe strongly in a cause & (2) still act rationally enough to allow for discussion, negotiation, and compromise outcomes.
- deleted 6y ago
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dewey 6y ago
I've read about a bunch of these renaming efforts in the past weeks and I think some of these are very justified while some of them seem to take it further than necessary. The master/slave naming seems clearly outdated to me and this one is a direct reference to slavery. A better word like replica exists so I'm using that instead. This makes a lot of sense. On the other hand there's efforts to rename white/black list or the "master" branch on git. I've never thought of these as even being related to racism until people started opening issues on Github projects about that. A master branch in this context is just like a vinyl master, or a master class to me. The final finished product and not any kind of reference to slavery. Am I wrong?
- fstephany 6y ago
  I always thought about it as the "vinyl master" analogy as well but it looks like it has a master/slave origin from the Bitkeeper days. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
  - dewey 6y ago
    Interesting, thanks for finding that. I wasn't aware of that.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    Honestly, why does it matter where the word comes from? Virtually no one ever used a git master branch thinking about slavery and not the "vinyl master" analogy. Shouldn't that be the actual meaning that is worth evaluating? Language evolves over time, the "master" in the git context doesn't have any reference anymore (in meaning) to the master/slave (which is a stupid wording to be honest) from bitkeeper. A soft proof to that is that every time that discussion occurs, you have lot of comments expressing their confusion given that the word in git context is actually used as a "master record".
- rmetzler 6y ago
  Thank you, that's exactly how I feel. I've got a Master of Science degree, should I feel bad about that? On the other hand, I second that "slave" is not a good terminology and trivializes real slavery, while a lot of words like "replica" or "worker" are more descriptive in a software context.
oddevan 6y ago
The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” Obviously, in this context, they aren’t meant to be racist; but they are a reminder that racism exists. The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech.
- unit-test 6y ago
  >The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech. The most dangerous part about this line of thought is that it is essentially unfalsifiable. We are witnessing the long march through the institutions.
- gruez 6y ago
  >the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I'm sorry, but what? It's not like you're calling the CEOs/managers "masters" and the rank and file devs "slaves". It's literally a term assigned to an inanimate object.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  Yikes. "Blacklist" has nothing to do with skin colour. In a different context, "being in the black" is a positive situation and contrasted with "being in the red". We start down that path and we'll end up banning "Paint it black" as a racist song.
  - loeg 6y ago
    A blacklist may not have anything to do with skin color, but being on a blacklist usually has negative connotations, not positive. The related term is "whitelist," not "redlist." So I can understand why people might believe the pair has racial overtones.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
      I think this is a similar misunderstanding as attributing the spelling "history" (which is a typical transliteration of the word "ιστορία" from Greek, that doesn't have a "his" syllable) to the fact that history is dominated by male figures. Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. To my mind, thinking that "blacklisting" has racist connotations because we all African people "black" also, is a similar kind of confusion. Edit: to clarify what I'm trying to say. The fact that "black" is in "blacklist" is a coincidence and nothing to do with racism. Same as the fact that "his" is in "history".
mk1982 6y ago
In the meantime, the Slave terminology is on its way out in Redis too. Here are a few commits: https://github.com/antirez/redis/search?q=%22slave+removal%22&type=Commits https://github.com/antirez/redis/search?q=%22slave+removal%2... Here's the issue where some of the discussion happened: https://github.com/antirez/redis/issues/5335 https://github.com/antirez/redis/issues/5335
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  "Personally I do not consider the effort worthwhile, but this is my personal opinion. [...] I don't want, as a result of my ideas, to create problems to the Redis community."
- hartator 6y ago
  It's paradoxical that they want these changes merged to "master".
  - thinkmassive 6y ago
    Trunk is a better term for the long lived main branch of an SCM tree anyway.
  - ATsch 6y ago
    Master has multiple meanings, not just slave master. As in mastery, master tape, master craftsman. In git, there are no "slave" branches, so "master" does not evoke slavery.
    - anentropic 6y ago
      On the contrary, naming of "master" branch in git does seem to derive from master/slave terminology... https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
      - bonzini 6y ago
        That's hearsay. Bitkeeper uses master/slave for repositories not branches.
travisoneill1 6y ago
What does he mean that you can't say "fake news" on HN?
- ajaimk 6y ago
  fake news
  - ajaimk 6y ago
    testing this myself
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  I think he's talking about this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818978 Click on parent a few times to get the full background. (I found that by searching for "antirez fake news" in comments, btw, I don't remember the conversation from the time it actually took place).
meddlepal 6y ago
If you don't like what a project is doing then fork it and maintain it yourself.
- deleted 6y ago
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mshron 6y ago
Can a mod put [2018] in the title?
IceDane 6y ago
Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else. Supporting this kind of asinine shit is essentially letting big corps like Google get away with doing practically nothing while seeming like the good guys. Stop focusing on the surface level shit and start focusing on the real issues.
- tzs 6y ago
  > Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in the same incident [3]. [1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-black-hole-is-just-a-black-hole https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-bl... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s01-coop.html https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s0... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_hole_a_racist_term.html https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_h...
  - axaxs 6y ago
    LOL. That was a wild ride, thanks for sharing.
  - blackhole999 6y ago
    Perhaps not racist but the origin is quite horrifying According to Hong-Yee Chiu, an astrophysicist at NASA, the Black Hole of Calcutta was the inspiration for the term black hole referring to regions of space-time resulting from the gravitational collapse of very heavy stars. He recalled hearing physicist Robert Dicke in the early 1960s compare such gravitationally collapsed objects to the prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta
draw_down 6y ago
> Mark do not care about the terminology he uses against other people, if the matter at hand is to make sure people that may potentially feel offended will not. Great point.
joshuakelly 6y ago
@dang please add a year flag to this - it's especially important given that Redis and antirez moved in a direction opposite of what this blog post describes (see other comments in the thread)
pnako 6y ago
Next, we ban certain songs by Britney Spears and Iron Maiden (probably the band Audioslave too). Yes, slavery was a (bad) thing throughout history. But it's just a word, and I don't think slavery is a problem between machine or software processes anyway. The word 'robot' comes from the word 'slave' too; should we start finding something else to use, because it might offend someone educated in US universities between 2005 and 2025?
axaxs 6y ago
I find the top comment to be the most insightful thing here, and wish everyone who is running these campaigns would read it.
- revx 6y ago
  Suspicious though, that the profile photo is a freely available stock image: https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-people-1835871/ https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-peopl...
mjw1007 6y ago
On this subject: there's a conversation pattern that goes like this: A: "Please change terminology X to Y because X is ethically bad, and Y is clearer anyway." B: "I disagree about Y being clearer." A: "You're an evil partisan of ethical-problem-in-question." I've seen this far too often and I think it's terrible. I strongly recommend anyone who is advocating a terminology change to either leave out the "and Y is clearer anyway" part, or be willing to discuss that part independently of the ethical part.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Needs 2018 tag. I thought this was a reprise of the old discussion in light of events in the USA. Instead, it's about something that happened two years ago.
tinyhouse 6y ago
He's right. Unfortunately there are many people like Mark. They fight worthless fights and attack people who disagree with them. It's very American to sweep problems under the carpet because of political correctness.
zozbot234 6y ago
Here we go again. But seriously, what's wrong with using "primary" and "replica" in a database context? They're generally clearer terms anyway. Obviously we'll be stuck talking about "master" and "slave" IDE connectors and the like, but other than that it seems to be falling out of use pretty much everywhere.
- messe 6y ago
  Also on the topic of Whitelist/Blacklist, I thought it was stupid to go about renaming, but then I saw the alternative was Allowlist/Blocklist, which IMO is much clearer (doubly so for non-native speakers).
- rgoulter 6y ago
  > But seriously, what's wrong with using "primary" and "replica" in a database context Those terms are fine. The practical argument to change the terms because you think they're clearer isn't a compelling reason to change the terms. But, also, a practical argument doesn't really mix well with the moral argument. (If "master"/"slave" were better understood than alternatives, but agreed to be offensive, would it be better to use those terms?). I don't see the argument as to being about which terms are best, though. The contention is 'the terms "master"/"slave" are offensive, and should be changed'. In terms of "what's wrong": this discussion has enough comments in favour of / against the idea to get a sample of what people are disagreeing about. If I understand correctly: "it's a small change to make, that will reduce the exclusion some people feel", and "the terms aren't used in an offensive way, it's not of substantial worth to change it".
ianwalter 6y ago
It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. Are people really so self-centered that they can't understand that? And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. People are reasonable and if they are telling you something bothers them, it most likely legitimately bothers them.
- deleted 6y ago
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- luckylion 6y ago
  > It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. The name ianwalter offends me, please change it. > And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. How many people do I need for you to change your name because it offends us? Or is it more that I need people you generally agree with for you to consider it an actual issue?
  - ianwalter 6y ago
    This is a great example of my point about "one or two people who are trying to be provocative". It's pretty obvious to anyone reading it that you are just explicitly trying to manufacture an issue.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Of course, I'm trying to prove a point, that's why I asked you: how many people do I need to say "me too" before it is an issue? Avoiding the answer makes me believe that your position is essentially "it's an issue if I agree with the people, otherwise it's just provocateurs". That's fine of course, but it's really just "it is whatever I say it is" and all the stuff about feelings, offense and people are just charades because you don't want to say that.
deleted 6y ago
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x3haloed 6y ago
The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. Although, I find his position to be unnecessarily defensive. What is he really fighting for? The language is outdated and stems from a practice that is universally shunned. There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. People absolutely have the right to be offended. Feeling offended is just that - a feeling. If we don’t have a right to experience feelings, then what do we have a right to? And the right to express our feelings with our speech and writing is known as “freedom of speech”, which is not a universal right in the world, but it’s a popular one. While it’s impossible to prevent offending everyone all the time, again, it’s outdated language referring to a shunned practice. This is more than a handful of individuals expressing offended feelings based on esoteric personal perspectives. Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people who still deal with the fallout of such a shunned practice. Again, doing so is not a requirement of any kind, and I’m not claiming racism. I’m just claiming a failure to understand, respect, and welcome people who live in a world still mired in the effects of a devastating practice. I would change the language.
- jiofih 6y ago
  Fighting against the word police. The net effect of banning words instead of addressing the underlying problems has the potential for very negative effects on society. > there is no harm in it It is immensely harmful to switch core concepts of a product around and break compatibility. Are we gonna ask record producers to stop creating “Master records” too? Rename the disk MBR? Does eliminating racism require deleting history, or understanding and acting on it in the real world? (note: my comment has already been flagged. this is incredibly disheartening)
- eterps 6y ago
  > The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > What is he really fighting for? Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? > The language is outdated and stems from a practice Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > from a practice that is universally shunned. What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? > There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. > People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. > Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed.
Muromec 6y ago
Could I take a moment to be offended by the mere existence of the word “slave” and it being used in historical discussion about forced labor and treating people as property, on behalf of all slavic people? It’s ridiculous that Americans appropriate the name of my people to deal with the problems of their own society.
- xrd 6y ago
  I know you are just trying to make a point, but then, shouldn't we point out that Americans didn't invent English nor the concept of slavery?
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hartator 6y ago
> was disappointed to see that Redis still uses the “master” and “slave” terminology in order to identify different roles in Redis replication. What's funny to me, it's these people are against the terminology but not against the concept. Like if you are against the words, why is okay for a Redis node to be a slave and ordered around by a Redis master? Shouldn't all Redis nodes be equal?
PresidentChuck 6y ago
Fork it like GIMP and you can have your controller / agent
- gruez 6y ago
  Didn't GIMP get forked because some people were offended by its name?
  - PresidentChuck 6y ago
    That's the point. Same as people getting offended by master-slave. If you don't like it fork it. Controller/Agent is what I've been seeing lately.
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Asooka 6y ago
You know, of all people, it is Slavs who should be the most offended at the use of master-slave terminology. That's where the word comes from - "slave" literally started out as "Slav person". But as an actual Slav, I find it very hard to be offended. It's just a word, it can't hurt me and it doesn't imply anything harmful. Of course, the politics du jour will dictate your reaction to censorious demands, but I just find it a bit funny.
danharaj 6y ago
All the discussion on this submission tells me is that it's not enough to disagree with others, one also has to ridicule them and emphasize how stupid they are for having a position one doesn't understand. Maybe even tie it to a greater culture war where inferiors who don't deserve to be in tech are ruining it for the ones already here. Stay hackernews, hackernews.
ljm 6y ago
I have to be honest, I think this kind of conversation is a difficult one to have because it can be far too easy to start arguing against what you think the other person is saying, not what they actually are saying. There's a lot of nuance that isn't done justice to (perhaps ironically so), especially as these conversations kick off from github issues, or on social media, and almost instantly devolve from there. I often find myself getting a headache while reading some of these 'conversations' as I try to get my head around the various perspectives at play. Some of it is truly exhausting, particularly the 'what about the slippery slope' argument that often comes up (in this comment section we have 'what about black hole', 'what about blackout'; in others it's 'what about maestro', etc.). Similarly, it's tiring to repeatedly hear the defence of censoring or erasing history. At the same time, the same is true of those in a hurry to brand others as racists, fascists, or otherwise phobic of something. These all feel like blunt instruments that do more to shut down the conversation rather than encourage it. There are way more than two sides to this story, it really isn't as black and white as the conversation can make it out to be (on so many levels). And as far as I'm concerned it's a conversation that requires one to take a step back for several moments and seriously consider the things that are currently at stake, and to start healthily unpacking this before jumping to an instinctual response. For me, the way we discuss this is just as much about compassion and genuine empathy, and adapting to change, as it is anything else. And also for me, if the terms 'master' and 'slave' have served their purpose and need to be changed, so be it. That doesn't upset me at all, but the toxic and hateful drama that often spews from such a decision really does.
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unit-test 6y ago
The Long March through the institutions. If you wanted to breed radicalization, this how you'd do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_i...
krisgenre 6y ago
What a coincidence! I was just reading https://redis.io/topics/replication https://redis.io/topics/replication few hours back and when I saw this leader-follower (master-slave) I couldn't help but wonder why they were bringing in a new terminology.
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rrss 6y ago
(I have no opposition to replacing master-slave, this is not intended as bait - I'm curious what others think). How about "robot?" From "Broken Metaphor: The Master-Slave Analogy in Technical Literature" [1]: > a new term meaning "slave" was entering the English language to describe an autonomous device meant to obey its master: "robot," from the 1923 translation of Karel Cˇapek's 1921 play R.U.R. (the word robot having been derived from a Czech word for slave, "robotnik"). If 'robot' isn't problematic, why is that? Is it because because the word is more decoupled from its origin than 'slave,' or because the origin of the word is less well known? Or is the negative-ness lost in translation? [1] https://muse.jhu.edu/article/215390 https://muse.jhu.edu/article/215390
js2 6y ago
My guess is that this was resubmitted due to this opinion piece the Washington Post ran yesterday: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-indu...
mnm1 6y ago
Words can have more than one meaning. Are Americans that stupid they can't understand this? Good to the author for standing up to this stupidity and bullying. His points are spot on. Clearly most don't agree and they are wrong. Imposing American culture onto others could be considered racist. I'd say "Mark" is the real racist and the real asshole in this story. Not to mention extremely stupid, a bully, one who doesn't respect anyone's culture, and one who is actively supporting racism by accusing others of it because they use master slave terminology in a fucking db. What insane absurdity. Only in America could such stupidity flourish and once again we export the worst of our culture and try to brow beat all other cultures into accepting it by force. In the meantime, we do almost nothing to address racism at home. All the protests have achieved what exactly other than spreading corona? Will the drug war end? Will policing be drastically different? Will black people have better opportunities? No. And no amount of brow beating open source developers will get any closer to any of those goals. Quite the opposite. But hey, we can pretend that we are addressing racism. That's what Americans are best at: PR and marketing. We'll pretend for awhile and things will go back to the way they were sadly.
jason0597 6y ago
Flagged? Why guys?
idoby 6y ago
At this rate, looks like I'm about to be pursuing a Replica of Science degree...
angryasian 6y ago
what are people calling it instead of master / slave ?
sawaruna 6y ago
This is a newer post about the topic but was flagged. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23485533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23485533
hintymad 6y ago
Oh, great. So much progressiveness. An article that was discussed two years ago was quickly flagged today.
qbaqbaqba 6y ago
Why do majority of people here hearing slave thinks about black people? "Slave" comes from Latin where it initially meant a Slavic person. Northern African slave traders, Turkish jasyr slaves, slavery of eastern European women (Slavic and Jewish) sold to brothels in South America are also all but forgotten. Racism is disgusting in any form but limiting slavery to only America is also racist.
eloff 6y ago
Between this and the commit replacing sexually charged hexspeak constants, I'm shaking my head this morning. It makes me want to be less politically correct on purpose just to troll the kinds of people who advocate for this meaningless crap. Words are not inherently offensive, if not used in an offensive manner. Can we just all please go back to being grownups now?
luord 6y ago
I definitely disagree with some parts of the article, but his basic point on the futility of giving way too much power to harmless words is sound. So much so that I don't understand why this got flagged (while, for instance, the one on github trying to change this wasn't).
loco5niner 6y ago
Agree with antirez - this is not a problem. However, the hecklers will probably end up having their way simply because they do not have better things to do.

188 points by markdog12 6y ago

(2018)

I suspect this is one of those topics that at some point, everyone will have just switched terms because it's not worth the hassle to fight these fights over and over again. Kind of a "I'm not wrong, but is it a good use of 20 hours a year to argue about this?"

retox 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto
- brianwawok 6y ago
  TIL thanks!
ajaimk 6y ago
Looks like that's the very point the author is trying to make. We can't give in to the dictatorship of the Small Minority specially when the most intolerant people seem to scream the loudest.
- crdrost 6y ago
  Oh HN, I weep for you. You trade compassionate impulses for paranoia about nonexistent dictatorships. You wish to have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too about topics like the power of words themselves — so that it’s “get off my back, my words do not have real power” but then this eats your very argument. If words DO have power, then you are legit hurting others: fix your shit. If words do not, then there is no point whining about the dangers of “dictators” telling you what words you can and can't use as it's all “who-gives-a-damn” anyway: and apparently these people before you give a damn, and if it is not too hard there is no excuse. This issue is not even a US-specific thing... I recall a Russian professor who got really hurt at some slides that showed metal links cracking around hands, “we are breaking the chains of existing physics methods,” as that has some really nasty power to make people uncomfortable if they are old enough to remember Stalin. I do not have a true solution, I am just sad. Because the true disease here is ego, is self-directed-ness, a cancer of me-me-me. Religions fix that, but good luck trying to promote that, heh. And the sort of people to be upset that “master-slave” makes reference to practices that have defined thousands of years of all nations’ history, are not likely to be ones to hear about the value of “emotionally intelligent leadership” or whatever the buzzword is now for not being a dick, and so that's not either. Truly depressing. As a minor historical footnote, it's not even accurate. Like the assumption is that slaves and masters are two different things, that having power and being property are two different states of being and it's impossible to be property while simultaneously having power. It's not just that those two concerns are obviously not opposites of each other... then you might say “well in practice...” But, like, it has also happened in history that slaves have occasionally ruled over nations[1]. They generally did well as rulers go, because a lot of history is really strong warlords coming to power and being extremely effective—perhaps even progressive and transformative—until they hand over the reins to their children who are not quite as talented as they were: and everything decays into a power and politics game, in all that nastiness. By choosing those without the right to a family to lead, that whole sordid business was avoided. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mamluk_sultans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mamluk_sultans
- capitol_ 6y ago
  It's a bit unclear if you are just trying to express the authors views or your own, but if those are your own views I felt that it warranted a reply. The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority. But that is a deeply flawed system, if there wasn't any other rule than "majority wins" then all oppression of minorities becomes valid and all abuse where the perpetrators outnumber the victims. For a system to be fair there must exist more rules than that, for example "respect bodily autonomy" and "no oppression of minorities" and so on. Many of those rules are more fundamental than the "majority wins" rule and more important to uphold. If those are not your own views: Sorry for the rant.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority. No, it does not. "I don't want to live under dictator A" does not imply "I want to enslave A" or "I want to live under dictator B", it only implies that I do not want to live under dictator A.
prepend 6y ago
I agree and keep a set of topics that just aren’t worth the mental anguish to discuss. The list started in the 90s where every single time circumcision was brought up, it devolved into a few people who commented more and more while the rest of the participants commented less. I’ve wondered how this affects actual opinions but can’t talk about it. I also wonder what other topics I haven’t noticed but others have checked out of and I’m missing their participation.
- microswan 6y ago
  This is the primary reason I no longer have accounts on "social media" (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc.). It's not only exhausting. It's dangerous. It takes one minor misstep in the eyes of another and you're faced with a torrent of misconstrued, misinformed people pushing a narrative that you're a horrible person. Next, you've lost your job, business, or worse. And it's only getting worse now that the idea "silence is complicity" is becoming popular. Nope, no thanks. I'll see myself out. I know a lot of people dislike anonymity because trolls and bad actors abuse it. However, it also means voices like mine, who strive to operate in good faith, get lost.
  - prepend 6y ago
    For me, it just got boring. Every discussion was pre-ordained. Even simple “fun” stuff like Star Wars would devolve into the same pseudo argument, oppositionalist statements. It’s not anonymity as Facebook is real people, who I think enjoy not being anonymous with getting internet points from people who enjoy it. I think the issue is no social contract with me. They aren’t my friends so they don’t care so much about me. Private messenger groups with 20 people who know each other seems fine. Interestingly, completely anonymous IRC on freenode results in good discussions.
luckylion 6y ago
Which means that the perpetually offended will dictate name changes every other year. If somebody argues that they cannot use $software because it contains $word as a variable in its source code somewhere, it's certainly not a good idea to argue with them. It also not a good idea to appease them by doing what they ask. Maybe developers should steer clear of Twitter so they don't get exposed to the problem. The only winning move is not to play, much like with ads. You don't train yourself to ignore ads or to not be influenced by them, you just use an ad blocker.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Yeah? I don't see evidence that every two years a new word gets brigaded in source code. Do you have examples of projects this has been happening to? If not, this seems like a slippery slope fallacy.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    You're right, master/slave and the new blacklist/whitelist demands did not have two years between them, not even this post is two years old.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Both of those have been discussions for much longer than two years. There's at least a decade of discussions around those two examples. Edit: closer to two decades - in 2003 LA asked electronics manufacturers not to use the language. Presumably this was first discussed by the community. In the mid aughts, Microsoft was using allowlist/deny list. So, hardly a recent phenomena, and certainly not every two years. Yes, some projects have been faster or slower to adopt replacements for these terms, which is why you have seen a few discussions in the past few weeks on HN.
tzs 6y ago
I'm kind of looking forward to when it gets far enough along that path for malicious compliance [1] to start kicking in. I think the Twitter blow up will be quite interesting the first time someone, say, in a discussion about the 19th century plantation economy in the southern US talks about white managers/black workers or white leaders/black followers to avoid the racist master/slave terminology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicious_compliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicious_compliance
apta 6y ago
They should just ignore them. Leave the github issue open, just don't respond to it. Let's see where it gets those SJW's

retox 6y ago

Allow me to be offended on behalf of you, and if you aren't offended then you are a problem too.

ethbro 6y ago
I think of it as: 1) I am personally offended, so you should be offended to. 2) If you are not offended, then because my personal offense is rooted in a just cause, you are bad. 3) Because you are bad, I cannot have a dialog with you. Indeed, I should not even try, because the cause is just. MLK Jr had wise words on this, noticing the danger of a person convinced of their own righteousness. Much of the non-violence playbook was predicated on the tightrope that is (1) convincing someone to believe strongly in a cause & (2) still act rationally enough to allow for discussion, negotiation, and compromise outcomes.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dewey 6y ago

I've read about a bunch of these renaming efforts in the past weeks and I think some of these are very justified while some of them seem to take it further than necessary. The master/slave naming seems clearly outdated to me and this one is a direct reference to slavery. A better word like replica exists so I'm using that instead. This makes a lot of sense. On the other hand there's efforts to rename white/black list or the "master" branch on git. I've never thought of these as even being related to racism until people started opening issues on Github projects about that. A master branch in this context is just like a vinyl master, or a master class to me. The final finished product and not any kind of reference to slavery. Am I wrong?

fstephany 6y ago
I always thought about it as the "vinyl master" analogy as well but it looks like it has a master/slave origin from the Bitkeeper days. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
- dewey 6y ago
  Interesting, thanks for finding that. I wasn't aware of that.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Honestly, why does it matter where the word comes from? Virtually no one ever used a git master branch thinking about slavery and not the "vinyl master" analogy. Shouldn't that be the actual meaning that is worth evaluating? Language evolves over time, the "master" in the git context doesn't have any reference anymore (in meaning) to the master/slave (which is a stupid wording to be honest) from bitkeeper. A soft proof to that is that every time that discussion occurs, you have lot of comments expressing their confusion given that the word in git context is actually used as a "master record".
rmetzler 6y ago
Thank you, that's exactly how I feel. I've got a Master of Science degree, should I feel bad about that? On the other hand, I second that "slave" is not a good terminology and trivializes real slavery, while a lot of words like "replica" or "worker" are more descriptive in a software context.

oddevan 6y ago

The problem I’m starting to see is that the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” Obviously, in this context, they aren’t meant to be racist; but they are a reminder that racism exists. The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech.

unit-test 6y ago
>The end result is that it makes more people feel unwanted and ultimately leave tech. The most dangerous part about this line of thought is that it is essentially unfalsifiable. We are witnessing the long march through the institutions.
gruez 6y ago
>the continued use of phrases like this (master/slave, blacklist/whitelist) can be a constant reminder to some that they “don’t belong here.” I'm sorry, but what? It's not like you're calling the CEOs/managers "masters" and the rank and file devs "slaves". It's literally a term assigned to an inanimate object.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Yikes. "Blacklist" has nothing to do with skin colour. In a different context, "being in the black" is a positive situation and contrasted with "being in the red". We start down that path and we'll end up banning "Paint it black" as a racist song.
- loeg 6y ago
  A blacklist may not have anything to do with skin color, but being on a blacklist usually has negative connotations, not positive. The related term is "whitelist," not "redlist." So I can understand why people might believe the pair has racial overtones.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    I think this is a similar misunderstanding as attributing the spelling "history" (which is a typical transliteration of the word "ιστορία" from Greek, that doesn't have a "his" syllable) to the fact that history is dominated by male figures. Some have suggested the term should be changed to "herstory" to recognise the contribution of women to history. To my mind, thinking that "blacklisting" has racist connotations because we all African people "black" also, is a similar kind of confusion. Edit: to clarify what I'm trying to say. The fact that "black" is in "blacklist" is a coincidence and nothing to do with racism. Same as the fact that "his" is in "history".

mk1982 6y ago

In the meantime, the Slave terminology is on its way out in Redis too. Here are a few commits: https://github.com/antirez/redis/search?q=%22slave+removal%22&type=Commits https://github.com/antirez/redis/search?q=%22slave+removal%2... Here's the issue where some of the discussion happened: https://github.com/antirez/redis/issues/5335 https://github.com/antirez/redis/issues/5335

KingOfCoders 6y ago
"Personally I do not consider the effort worthwhile, but this is my personal opinion. [...] I don't want, as a result of my ideas, to create problems to the Redis community."
hartator 6y ago
It's paradoxical that they want these changes merged to "master".
- thinkmassive 6y ago
  Trunk is a better term for the long lived main branch of an SCM tree anyway.
- ATsch 6y ago
  Master has multiple meanings, not just slave master. As in mastery, master tape, master craftsman. In git, there are no "slave" branches, so "master" does not evoke slavery.
  - anentropic 6y ago
    On the contrary, naming of "master" branch in git does seem to derive from master/slave terminology... https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
    - bonzini 6y ago
      That's hearsay. Bitkeeper uses master/slave for repositories not branches.

travisoneill1 6y ago

What does he mean that you can't say "fake news" on HN?

ajaimk 6y ago
fake news
- ajaimk 6y ago
  testing this myself
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
I think he's talking about this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17818978 Click on parent a few times to get the full background. (I found that by searching for "antirez fake news" in comments, btw, I don't remember the conversation from the time it actually took place).

meddlepal 6y ago

If you don't like what a project is doing then fork it and maintain it yourself.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mshron 6y ago

Can a mod put [2018] in the title?

IceDane 6y ago

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else. Supporting this kind of asinine shit is essentially letting big corps like Google get away with doing practically nothing while seeming like the good guys. Stop focusing on the surface level shit and start focusing on the real issues.

tzs 6y ago
> Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in the same incident [3]. [1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-black-hole-is-just-a-black-hole https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/sometimes-a-bl... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s01-coop.html https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0723/p09s0... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_hole_a_racist_term.html https://www.npr.org/sections/newsandviews/2008/07/is_black_h...
- axaxs 6y ago
  LOL. That was a wild ride, thanks for sharing.
- blackhole999 6y ago
  Perhaps not racist but the origin is quite horrifying According to Hong-Yee Chiu, an astrophysicist at NASA, the Black Hole of Calcutta was the inspiration for the term black hole referring to regions of space-time resulting from the gravitational collapse of very heavy stars. He recalled hearing physicist Robert Dicke in the early 1960s compare such gravitationally collapsed objects to the prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta

draw_down 6y ago

> Mark do not care about the terminology he uses against other people, if the matter at hand is to make sure people that may potentially feel offended will not. Great point.

joshuakelly 6y ago

@dang please add a year flag to this - it's especially important given that Redis and antirez moved in a direction opposite of what this blog post describes (see other comments in the thread)

pnako 6y ago

Next, we ban certain songs by Britney Spears and Iron Maiden (probably the band Audioslave too). Yes, slavery was a (bad) thing throughout history. But it's just a word, and I don't think slavery is a problem between machine or software processes anyway. The word 'robot' comes from the word 'slave' too; should we start finding something else to use, because it might offend someone educated in US universities between 2005 and 2025?

axaxs 6y ago

I find the top comment to be the most insightful thing here, and wish everyone who is running these campaigns would read it.

revx 6y ago
Suspicious though, that the profile photo is a freely available stock image: https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-people-1835871/ https://pixabay.com/photos/fashion-afro-american-black-peopl...

mjw1007 6y ago

On this subject: there's a conversation pattern that goes like this: A: "Please change terminology X to Y because X is ethically bad, and Y is clearer anyway." B: "I disagree about Y being clearer." A: "You're an evil partisan of ethical-problem-in-question." I've seen this far too often and I think it's terrible. I strongly recommend anyone who is advocating a terminology change to either leave out the "and Y is clearer anyway" part, or be willing to discuss that part independently of the ethical part.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

Needs 2018 tag. I thought this was a reprise of the old discussion in light of events in the USA. Instead, it's about something that happened two years ago.

tinyhouse 6y ago

He's right. Unfortunately there are many people like Mark. They fight worthless fights and attack people who disagree with them. It's very American to sweep problems under the carpet because of political correctness.

zozbot234 6y ago

Here we go again. But seriously, what's wrong with using "primary" and "replica" in a database context? They're generally clearer terms anyway. Obviously we'll be stuck talking about "master" and "slave" IDE connectors and the like, but other than that it seems to be falling out of use pretty much everywhere.

messe 6y ago
Also on the topic of Whitelist/Blacklist, I thought it was stupid to go about renaming, but then I saw the alternative was Allowlist/Blocklist, which IMO is much clearer (doubly so for non-native speakers).
rgoulter 6y ago
> But seriously, what's wrong with using "primary" and "replica" in a database context Those terms are fine. The practical argument to change the terms because you think they're clearer isn't a compelling reason to change the terms. But, also, a practical argument doesn't really mix well with the moral argument. (If "master"/"slave" were better understood than alternatives, but agreed to be offensive, would it be better to use those terms?). I don't see the argument as to being about which terms are best, though. The contention is 'the terms "master"/"slave" are offensive, and should be changed'. In terms of "what's wrong": this discussion has enough comments in favour of / against the idea to get a sample of what people are disagreeing about. If I understand correctly: "it's a small change to make, that will reduce the exclusion some people feel", and "the terms aren't used in an offensive way, it's not of substantial worth to change it".

ianwalter 6y ago

It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. Are people really so self-centered that they can't understand that? And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. People are reasonable and if they are telling you something bothers them, it most likely legitimately bothers them.

deleted 6y ago
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luckylion 6y ago
> It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. The name ianwalter offends me, please change it. > And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. How many people do I need for you to change your name because it offends us? Or is it more that I need people you generally agree with for you to consider it an actual issue?
- ianwalter 6y ago
  This is a great example of my point about "one or two people who are trying to be provocative". It's pretty obvious to anyone reading it that you are just explicitly trying to manufacture an issue.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Of course, I'm trying to prove a point, that's why I asked you: how many people do I need to say "me too" before it is an issue? Avoiding the answer makes me believe that your position is essentially "it's an issue if I agree with the people, otherwise it's just provocateurs". That's fine of course, but it's really just "it is whatever I say it is" and all the stuff about feelings, offense and people are just charades because you don't want to say that.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

x3haloed 6y ago

The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. Although, I find his position to be unnecessarily defensive. What is he really fighting for? The language is outdated and stems from a practice that is universally shunned. There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. People absolutely have the right to be offended. Feeling offended is just that - a feeling. If we don’t have a right to experience feelings, then what do we have a right to? And the right to express our feelings with our speech and writing is known as “freedom of speech”, which is not a universal right in the world, but it’s a popular one. While it’s impossible to prevent offending everyone all the time, again, it’s outdated language referring to a shunned practice. This is more than a handful of individuals expressing offended feelings based on esoteric personal perspectives. Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people who still deal with the fallout of such a shunned practice. Again, doing so is not a requirement of any kind, and I’m not claiming racism. I’m just claiming a failure to understand, respect, and welcome people who live in a world still mired in the effects of a devastating practice. I would change the language.

jiofih 6y ago
Fighting against the word police. The net effect of banning words instead of addressing the underlying problems has the potential for very negative effects on society. > there is no harm in it It is immensely harmful to switch core concepts of a product around and break compatibility. Are we gonna ask record producers to stop creating “Master records” too? Rename the disk MBR? Does eliminating racism require deleting history, or understanding and acting on it in the real world? (note: my comment has already been flagged. this is incredibly disheartening)
eterps 6y ago
> The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > What is he really fighting for? Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? > The language is outdated and stems from a practice Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > from a practice that is universally shunned. What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? > There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. > People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. > Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed.

Muromec 6y ago

Could I take a moment to be offended by the mere existence of the word “slave” and it being used in historical discussion about forced labor and treating people as property, on behalf of all slavic people? It’s ridiculous that Americans appropriate the name of my people to deal with the problems of their own society.

xrd 6y ago
I know you are just trying to make a point, but then, shouldn't we point out that Americans didn't invent English nor the concept of slavery?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hartator 6y ago

> was disappointed to see that Redis still uses the “master” and “slave” terminology in order to identify different roles in Redis replication. What's funny to me, it's these people are against the terminology but not against the concept. Like if you are against the words, why is okay for a Redis node to be a slave and ordered around by a Redis master? Shouldn't all Redis nodes be equal?

PresidentChuck 6y ago

Fork it like GIMP and you can have your controller / agent

gruez 6y ago
Didn't GIMP get forked because some people were offended by its name?
- PresidentChuck 6y ago
  That's the point. Same as people getting offended by master-slave. If you don't like it fork it. Controller/Agent is what I've been seeing lately.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Asooka 6y ago

You know, of all people, it is Slavs who should be the most offended at the use of master-slave terminology. That's where the word comes from - "slave" literally started out as "Slav person". But as an actual Slav, I find it very hard to be offended. It's just a word, it can't hurt me and it doesn't imply anything harmful. Of course, the politics du jour will dictate your reaction to censorious demands, but I just find it a bit funny.

danharaj 6y ago

All the discussion on this submission tells me is that it's not enough to disagree with others, one also has to ridicule them and emphasize how stupid they are for having a position one doesn't understand. Maybe even tie it to a greater culture war where inferiors who don't deserve to be in tech are ruining it for the ones already here. Stay hackernews, hackernews.

ljm 6y ago

I have to be honest, I think this kind of conversation is a difficult one to have because it can be far too easy to start arguing against what you think the other person is saying, not what they actually are saying. There's a lot of nuance that isn't done justice to (perhaps ironically so), especially as these conversations kick off from github issues, or on social media, and almost instantly devolve from there. I often find myself getting a headache while reading some of these 'conversations' as I try to get my head around the various perspectives at play. Some of it is truly exhausting, particularly the 'what about the slippery slope' argument that often comes up (in this comment section we have 'what about black hole', 'what about blackout'; in others it's 'what about maestro', etc.). Similarly, it's tiring to repeatedly hear the defence of censoring or erasing history. At the same time, the same is true of those in a hurry to brand others as racists, fascists, or otherwise phobic of something. These all feel like blunt instruments that do more to shut down the conversation rather than encourage it. There are way more than two sides to this story, it really isn't as black and white as the conversation can make it out to be (on so many levels). And as far as I'm concerned it's a conversation that requires one to take a step back for several moments and seriously consider the things that are currently at stake, and to start healthily unpacking this before jumping to an instinctual response. For me, the way we discuss this is just as much about compassion and genuine empathy, and adapting to change, as it is anything else. And also for me, if the terms 'master' and 'slave' have served their purpose and need to be changed, so be it. That doesn't upset me at all, but the toxic and hateful drama that often spews from such a decision really does.

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unit-test 6y ago

The Long March through the institutions. If you wanted to breed radicalization, this how you'd do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_i...

krisgenre 6y ago

What a coincidence! I was just reading https://redis.io/topics/replication https://redis.io/topics/replication few hours back and when I saw this leader-follower (master-slave) I couldn't help but wonder why they were bringing in a new terminology.

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rrss 6y ago

(I have no opposition to replacing master-slave, this is not intended as bait - I'm curious what others think). How about "robot?" From "Broken Metaphor: The Master-Slave Analogy in Technical Literature" [1]: > a new term meaning "slave" was entering the English language to describe an autonomous device meant to obey its master: "robot," from the 1923 translation of Karel Cˇapek's 1921 play R.U.R. (the word robot having been derived from a Czech word for slave, "robotnik"). If 'robot' isn't problematic, why is that? Is it because because the word is more decoupled from its origin than 'slave,' or because the origin of the word is less well known? Or is the negative-ness lost in translation? [1] https://muse.jhu.edu/article/215390 https://muse.jhu.edu/article/215390

js2 6y ago

My guess is that this was resubmitted due to this opinion piece the Washington Post ran yesterday: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-industry-has-an-ugly-master-slave-problem/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/12/tech-indu...

mnm1 6y ago

Words can have more than one meaning. Are Americans that stupid they can't understand this? Good to the author for standing up to this stupidity and bullying. His points are spot on. Clearly most don't agree and they are wrong. Imposing American culture onto others could be considered racist. I'd say "Mark" is the real racist and the real asshole in this story. Not to mention extremely stupid, a bully, one who doesn't respect anyone's culture, and one who is actively supporting racism by accusing others of it because they use master slave terminology in a fucking db. What insane absurdity. Only in America could such stupidity flourish and once again we export the worst of our culture and try to brow beat all other cultures into accepting it by force. In the meantime, we do almost nothing to address racism at home. All the protests have achieved what exactly other than spreading corona? Will the drug war end? Will policing be drastically different? Will black people have better opportunities? No. And no amount of brow beating open source developers will get any closer to any of those goals. Quite the opposite. But hey, we can pretend that we are addressing racism. That's what Americans are best at: PR and marketing. We'll pretend for awhile and things will go back to the way they were sadly.

jason0597 6y ago

Flagged? Why guys?

idoby 6y ago

At this rate, looks like I'm about to be pursuing a Replica of Science degree...

angryasian 6y ago

what are people calling it instead of master / slave ?

sawaruna 6y ago

This is a newer post about the topic but was flagged. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23485533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23485533

hintymad 6y ago

Oh, great. So much progressiveness. An article that was discussed two years ago was quickly flagged today.

qbaqbaqba 6y ago

Why do majority of people here hearing slave thinks about black people? "Slave" comes from Latin where it initially meant a Slavic person. Northern African slave traders, Turkish jasyr slaves, slavery of eastern European women (Slavic and Jewish) sold to brothels in South America are also all but forgotten. Racism is disgusting in any form but limiting slavery to only America is also racist.

eloff 6y ago

Between this and the commit replacing sexually charged hexspeak constants, I'm shaking my head this morning. It makes me want to be less politically correct on purpose just to troll the kinds of people who advocate for this meaningless crap. Words are not inherently offensive, if not used in an offensive manner. Can we just all please go back to being grownups now?

luord 6y ago

I definitely disagree with some parts of the article, but his basic point on the futility of giving way too much power to harmless words is sound. So much so that I don't understand why this got flagged (while, for instance, the one on github trying to change this wasn't).

loco5niner 6y ago

Agree with antirez - this is not a problem. However, the hecklers will probably end up having their way simply because they do not have better things to do.