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Most US companies that I am familiar with apply US laws to all their users, at least to some extent. For example, I don't think that YouTube will allow you to p
by HALtheWise 6y ago
Most US companies that I am familiar with apply US laws to all their users, at least to some extent. For example, I don't think that YouTube will allow you to post a blatantly copyright-infringing video, even if your account declares a country that doesn't enforce US copyright laws. Similarly, I suspect that Facebook would take down a page for a terrorist group, without needing permission from the country they are based in. I'm curious if you know of counterexamples.
I'm not necessarily saying that US and Chinese laws are equivalent in this sense, but it does seem like something of a double standard.
- whiddershins 6y agoNot exactly, because if you are based in a certain country, you must follow their laws regardless of where the user is. Plus obeying local laws in regards to local residents, which don’t apply to this allegation. So, by this logic, Zoom’s actions only make sense if they are based in China.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoZoom can choose to ban / block whoever they want for whatever reason they want. Can’t they? They’re not required to do business with any particular individual by statute, are they?
- jbay808 6y agoI think the above discussion is about whether they have to, not whether they can. Zoom can ban all of their users if they want to, but presumably they only will do so if pressured, because businesses want users and also suspending accounts is bad press. By the way, you're also allowed to be outraged by what a business does even when that business is acting within its rights.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoI get the feeling there is no bad press in this context. Zoom gets lots of free press exposure and gets to point out how they are improving.
- katbyte 6y agoI didn’t really care until now - and I won’t use zoom for any more personal conversations and am about to email my employer to move away from Zoom for this reason. So yes bad press?
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoOnly if their daily / weekly / monthly active users decreases
- komali2 6y agoNope! As a US company though of course they're not allowed to refuse to do business with someone based on gender, religion, or ethnicity though. However it's still unethical.
- modeless 6y agoUS companies may enforce US law but they're not hiding the fact that they're US companies. Zoom claimed not to be a Chinese company while enforcing Chinese law for US users.
- fossuser 6y agoYeah, but this is the mistake they’re acknowledging with a promise to build out the system to only suppress the mainland China citizens specifically. My point is that this is not acceptable either.
- usaar333 6y agoIt's not really a "mistake". They were aware they lacked functionality to region block meetings and rather than reply to the Chinese government that such a request will not be possible to comply with for x days until feature is developed, they opted to suppress US users. That sets a bad precedent for future ambiguous issues.
- alasdair_ 6y ago>Yeah, but this is the mistake they’re acknowledging Out of interest, did they fix their "mistake" and reinstate the accounts?
- thedudeabides5 6y agoGreat question. Will show where they land. Still waiting to see if China will show NBA games while Daryl Morey remains unfired. https://qz.com/1730643/china-asked-nba-to-fire-daryl-morey-for-hong-kong-tweet/ https://qz.com/1730643/china-asked-nba-to-fire-daryl-morey-f... How long is the west going to pretend it doesn’t see where this pattern of bullying ends...
- silentsea90 6y agoAfaik, they have reinstated the accounts
- hrktb 6y ago
- rayiner 6y ago> I'm not necessarily saying that US and Chinese laws are equivalent in this sense, but it does seem like something of a double standard. And that’s perfectly fine.
- joyfulmantis 6y agoThe idea that your country knows best and that your countries companies can feel free to ignore other countries laws while operating in them is -- imperialism.
- GhostVII 6y agoI think it is fair to say that the laws in the US are objectively better than in China. The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion, or heavily censor the internet, or kill hundreds or thousands of civilians to suppress pro-democracy protests.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoYou’re on shaky ground there. The US does imprison more of its citizens on a per capita basis than any other comparable nation. The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. I’ll stop there.
- komali2 6y agoAnd the USA did allow violence against democratic organizers last week. But those same organizers weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC.
- katbyte 6y agoThis. As outraged as I have been by America’s actions towards their protestors it’s honestly a lot different then HK let along tiananmen square (which my iPhone refuses to recognize.. well that’s fucked up yet expected I guess, and least Taiwan and 🇹🇼 Are there) Trump is doing trump but a lot of politicians and others have spoken out and marched - would that happen in China?
- chrismcb 6y agoThere are like three small companies that aren't signatories of the Berne convention. So YouTube is probably don't the right thing in regards to copyright ( with the exception of possibly some differences on what is public domain) While your point about following us laws are valid, copyright was a poor example. But there is also the issue that most us companies are actually us companies and still need to follow us laws.
- ddrt 6y agoYou want to talk copyright and IP violations with the context putting China as the victim? That’s... actually laughable.
- tekknik 6y agoAt some point the US will wake up as a nation and realize this is a new kind of war. Why suddenly is there a lot of pro chinese statements around the internet where there was none before?
- jackson1442 6y ago> For example, I don't think that YouTube will allow you to post a blatantly copyright-infringing video, even if your account declares a country that doesn't enforce US copyright laws Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the data held to US law if it's stored in the US? I'm pretty sure the federal government wouldn't take kindly to me storing petabytes of copyrighted works in the US, regardless of whether my clients are in Chicago, South Africa, or Taiwan. Zoom's datacenters are theoretically in the US, therefore the regulations US consumers should be held to are US regulations. If they want to play the "we follow local laws" card, they could have restricted the meeting in China only. For the record, I think what the CCP is doing here is reprehensible, but I'm just trying to add my perspective on this specific issue.
- iforgotpassword 6y agoGoogles Servers aren't exclusively located in the US.
- paranoidrobot 6y agoIt's definitely a US law applies everywhere thing for US based companies. Amazon, IBM, and Microsoft apply DMCA takedown requests to servers hosted physically outside of the US.
- atoav 6y agoWhere you can see this most clearly is nudity. Traditionally europe had a more liberal approach when it came to nudity — that was until US platforms came in with their prude nipple policing.
- shoulderfake 6y agoNot Twitter!
- GekkePrutser 6y agoNor reddit by the way! I think platforms are OK to publish this as long as it's behind an "NSFW" wall/toggle. But platforms like Facebook choose not to have one (not to mention that the policy of real names isn't really compatible with posting NSFW content)
- bad_user 6y agoUS copyright is enforceable overseas due to trade agreements. As a US citizen do you think you can infringe EU's copyright law? It is true that US's culture has spilled into the terms of use of some of these services. I still remember the "napalm girl" being censored on Facebook for public display of nudity. However these aren't examples of individuals being targeted by the US government. Also just because there are instances of other companies having a negative impact on foreign users, it doesn't make this particular instance any less bad. It's a logical fallacy to imply otherwise. Fuck Zoom. Fuck the Chinese administration. There, now go say that in China without fearing for your life or that of your loved ones.
- ridewinter 6y agoBeautiful use of strong language.
- TheKarateKid 6y agoThere are plenty of countries that US copyright law is enforced on a US company's platform even though there are NO trade agreements with the US with respect to copyright. Otherwise, piracy would be allowed to be hosted in numerous countries. It's a blatant double standard.
- hn_check 6y agoUniversal Copyright Convention (UCC) and Berne Convention. This covers the vast majority of the world.
- loceng 6y agoI'm okay with double standards that are because we need to treat freedom and democracy differently to the threat that tyranny is.
- TheKarateKid 6y agoThis double standard is an excellent point. For example, US companies have no problem enforcing US copyright law in countries that have no such laws or trade agreements with the US. Otherwise, piracy would be allowed on sites like YouTube as long as the uploader was from one of these countries. Yet, US laws of free speech no longer seem to matter if the user is in an oppressive country. The selective enforcement of US law to non-US users is a terrible double standard that needs to change.