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One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/

One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

ciarannolan 6y ago
From the OP of that post: >tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1] So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ftkhmqn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...
- milquetoastaf 6y ago
  Because something like this would never happen with the police involved...
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    I don't think the person you were responding to ever made the claim that it would never happen if the police were there. I think the point is that it did happen. If this is supposed to be a utopia free of cops then they are doing a poor job. They have "cops" that beat up people for petty crimes.
- dev1n 6y ago
  Raz isn't a reason why the police exist. Raz is a product of a system where the police exist too much, which if given the proper social and educational services earlier in his life, his character and personality disorder exemplified here would have been nullified.
  - bathtub365 6y ago
    That idealism is great, but Raz exists today regardless. What’s your solution to that?
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. What does that have to do with the police existing "too much"?
    - thephyber 6y ago
      > This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. That's exactly what caused all of these protests. > At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? It's constantly of interest to me how much "free will" actually exists. The more research comes out about environmental factors, the more we realize that people who suffer {home, food, employment, physical} insecurity exhibit symptoms as if they had a lower IQ and stress which is correlated with increased mental illness, stress, blood pressure, and other health problems. It also strikes me that the current legal corrections system really only works if we, as individuals, have significant ability to decide not to commit a crime as opposed to it being the most likely destiny based on our current {personal, environmental} state.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I assure you that's utterly false. There's tons of "Razes" in the country where I'm from, and very few police officers.
  - kemonocode 6y ago
    That doesn't sound like a good excuse for him. Sociopathic behaviors have existed since time immemorial, and the old approach before any form of formal law enforcement even existed was for tribes to enact social law enforcement and isolate or exile such undesirable elements-- and tyrants are born when you got enough armed people on your side to override societal rule. EDIT: Replaced a term for a more neutral one.
  - 6y ago
- solarkraft 6y ago
  > So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. Yes, but not current american police. What is demonstrated here is that unchecked power is bad, which is pretty close to what the american police currently seems to have, leading to crimes like the one that started the whole protest.
  - logicprog 6y ago
    Well said. It's about checked power - abolishing police totally would just end up with them recreated again when the need arises, but without the proper infrastructure to control them. What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police. Police should be as accountable for their actions and mistakes as every other citizen (equality under the law!), or at least that's the idea. We can start by: - getting rid of police unions that hide information and do stuff like have police be judged by three of their peers, one picked by the accused, and prevent police from getting fired. - get rid of qualified immunity And so on.
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      > without the proper infrastructure to control them. Many, myself included, would argue that they're basically out of control right now. Just look at the sequence of events that unfolds almost to the letter after every unjustified police killing. At best the outcome is the cop involved resigns and quietly goes to work for another police department a few months down the line or retires with full benefits. Defund of course means a million things to a million people but a lot of what I'm hearing is about moving the armed police response to the minority of roles where it's needed. The amount of time you need an armed officer is a tiny fraction of the times they're there and they're not trained for the vast majority of the actual work they do. Under this defund is about taking the glut of resources allocated to cops and moving it to people better trained to deal with the kind of mental health, mediation, etc tasks that take up the bulk of police's actual time.
      - logicprog 6y ago
        I agree with you wholeheartedly on both points. I even said in my OG comment: "What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police." I know the police aren't well-controlled right now, that's why I was laying out a few ways to improve it! (: I would say, though, that our US police are more controlled than what's going on in the CHAZ, however slightly in some ways.
- quasarj 6y ago
  Well dang, we're certainly not inviting you to utopia.
- postingawayonhn 6y ago
  That must be the "localized anti-crime system".
tomschlick 6y ago
All their food was stolen by homeless people as well: https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024 https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jpindar 6y ago
  That tweet is apparently a fake.
Miner49er 6y ago
Yeah. Hopefully the people in CHAZ learn from Animal Farm and shut Raz down now. Orwell would likely support CHAZ, he fight with the anarchists in Catalonia after all. People tend to not realize that Animal Farm was a criticism of the USSR from a socialist. It is not a criticism of all socialism or anarchism.

ciarannolan 6y ago

From the OP of that post: >tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1] So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ftkhmqn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

milquetoastaf 6y ago
Because something like this would never happen with the police involved...
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  I don't think the person you were responding to ever made the claim that it would never happen if the police were there. I think the point is that it did happen. If this is supposed to be a utopia free of cops then they are doing a poor job. They have "cops" that beat up people for petty crimes.
dev1n 6y ago
Raz isn't a reason why the police exist. Raz is a product of a system where the police exist too much, which if given the proper social and educational services earlier in his life, his character and personality disorder exemplified here would have been nullified.
- bathtub365 6y ago
  That idealism is great, but Raz exists today regardless. What’s your solution to that?
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. What does that have to do with the police existing "too much"?
  - thephyber 6y ago
    > This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. That's exactly what caused all of these protests. > At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? It's constantly of interest to me how much "free will" actually exists. The more research comes out about environmental factors, the more we realize that people who suffer {home, food, employment, physical} insecurity exhibit symptoms as if they had a lower IQ and stress which is correlated with increased mental illness, stress, blood pressure, and other health problems. It also strikes me that the current legal corrections system really only works if we, as individuals, have significant ability to decide not to commit a crime as opposed to it being the most likely destiny based on our current {personal, environmental} state.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I assure you that's utterly false. There's tons of "Razes" in the country where I'm from, and very few police officers.
- kemonocode 6y ago
  That doesn't sound like a good excuse for him. Sociopathic behaviors have existed since time immemorial, and the old approach before any form of formal law enforcement even existed was for tribes to enact social law enforcement and isolate or exile such undesirable elements-- and tyrants are born when you got enough armed people on your side to override societal rule. EDIT: Replaced a term for a more neutral one.
- 6y ago
solarkraft 6y ago
> So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. Yes, but not current american police. What is demonstrated here is that unchecked power is bad, which is pretty close to what the american police currently seems to have, leading to crimes like the one that started the whole protest.
- logicprog 6y ago
  Well said. It's about checked power - abolishing police totally would just end up with them recreated again when the need arises, but without the proper infrastructure to control them. What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police. Police should be as accountable for their actions and mistakes as every other citizen (equality under the law!), or at least that's the idea. We can start by: - getting rid of police unions that hide information and do stuff like have police be judged by three of their peers, one picked by the accused, and prevent police from getting fired. - get rid of qualified immunity And so on.
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    > without the proper infrastructure to control them. Many, myself included, would argue that they're basically out of control right now. Just look at the sequence of events that unfolds almost to the letter after every unjustified police killing. At best the outcome is the cop involved resigns and quietly goes to work for another police department a few months down the line or retires with full benefits. Defund of course means a million things to a million people but a lot of what I'm hearing is about moving the armed police response to the minority of roles where it's needed. The amount of time you need an armed officer is a tiny fraction of the times they're there and they're not trained for the vast majority of the actual work they do. Under this defund is about taking the glut of resources allocated to cops and moving it to people better trained to deal with the kind of mental health, mediation, etc tasks that take up the bulk of police's actual time.
    - logicprog 6y ago
      I agree with you wholeheartedly on both points. I even said in my OG comment: "What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police." I know the police aren't well-controlled right now, that's why I was laying out a few ways to improve it! (: I would say, though, that our US police are more controlled than what's going on in the CHAZ, however slightly in some ways.
quasarj 6y ago
Well dang, we're certainly not inviting you to utopia.
postingawayonhn 6y ago
That must be the "localized anti-crime system".

tomschlick 6y ago

All their food was stolen by homeless people as well: https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024 https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jpindar 6y ago
That tweet is apparently a fake.

Miner49er 6y ago

Yeah. Hopefully the people in CHAZ learn from Animal Farm and shut Raz down now. Orwell would likely support CHAZ, he fight with the anarchists in Catalonia after all. People tend to not realize that Animal Farm was a criticism of the USSR from a socialist. It is not a criticism of all socialism or anarchism.