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From Wikipedia: Animal Farm by G.Orwell "The book tells the story of a group of farm animals who rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a society wh

From Wikipedia: Animal Farm by G.Orwell "The book tells the story of a group of farm animals who rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a society where the animals can be equal, free, and happy. Ultimately, however, the rebellion is betrayed, and the farm ends up in a state as bad as it was before, under the dictatorship of a pig named Napoleon." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

docdeek 6y ago
One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  From the OP of that post: >tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1] So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ftkhmqn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...
  - milquetoastaf 6y ago
    Because something like this would never happen with the police involved...
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      I don't think the person you were responding to ever made the claim that it would never happen if the police were there. I think the point is that it did happen. If this is supposed to be a utopia free of cops then they are doing a poor job. They have "cops" that beat up people for petty crimes.
  - dev1n 6y ago
    Raz isn't a reason why the police exist. Raz is a product of a system where the police exist too much, which if given the proper social and educational services earlier in his life, his character and personality disorder exemplified here would have been nullified.
    - bathtub365 6y ago
      That idealism is great, but Raz exists today regardless. What’s your solution to that?
    - ciarannolan 6y ago
      At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. What does that have to do with the police existing "too much"?
      - thephyber 6y ago
        > This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. That's exactly what caused all of these protests. > At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? It's constantly of interest to me how much "free will" actually exists. The more research comes out about environmental factors, the more we realize that people who suffer {home, food, employment, physical} insecurity exhibit symptoms as if they had a lower IQ and stress which is correlated with increased mental illness, stress, blood pressure, and other health problems. It also strikes me that the current legal corrections system really only works if we, as individuals, have significant ability to decide not to commit a crime as opposed to it being the most likely destiny based on our current {personal, environmental} state.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      I assure you that's utterly false. There's tons of "Razes" in the country where I'm from, and very few police officers.
    - kemonocode 6y ago
      That doesn't sound like a good excuse for him. Sociopathic behaviors have existed since time immemorial, and the old approach before any form of formal law enforcement even existed was for tribes to enact social law enforcement and isolate or exile such undesirable elements-- and tyrants are born when you got enough armed people on your side to override societal rule. EDIT: Replaced a term for a more neutral one.
  - solarkraft 6y ago
    > So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. Yes, but not current american police. What is demonstrated here is that unchecked power is bad, which is pretty close to what the american police currently seems to have, leading to crimes like the one that started the whole protest.
    - logicprog 6y ago
      Well said. It's about checked power - abolishing police totally would just end up with them recreated again when the need arises, but without the proper infrastructure to control them. What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police. Police should be as accountable for their actions and mistakes as every other citizen (equality under the law!), or at least that's the idea. We can start by: - getting rid of police unions that hide information and do stuff like have police be judged by three of their peers, one picked by the accused, and prevent police from getting fired. - get rid of qualified immunity And so on.
      - rtkwe 6y ago
        > without the proper infrastructure to control them. Many, myself included, would argue that they're basically out of control right now. Just look at the sequence of events that unfolds almost to the letter after every unjustified police killing. At best the outcome is the cop involved resigns and quietly goes to work for another police department a few months down the line or retires with full benefits. Defund of course means a million things to a million people but a lot of what I'm hearing is about moving the armed police response to the minority of roles where it's needed. The amount of time you need an armed officer is a tiny fraction of the times they're there and they're not trained for the vast majority of the actual work they do. Under this defund is about taking the glut of resources allocated to cops and moving it to people better trained to deal with the kind of mental health, mediation, etc tasks that take up the bulk of police's actual time.
        logicprog 6y ago
        I agree with you wholeheartedly on both points. I even said in my OG comment: "What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police." I know the police aren't well-controlled right now, that's why I was laying out a few ways to improve it! (: I would say, though, that our US police are more controlled than what's going on in the CHAZ, however slightly in some ways.
  - quasarj 6y ago
    Well dang, we're certainly not inviting you to utopia.
  - postingawayonhn 6y ago
    That must be the "localized anti-crime system".
- tomschlick 6y ago
  All their food was stolen by homeless people as well: https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024 https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jpindar 6y ago
    That tweet is apparently a fake.
- Miner49er 6y ago
  Yeah. Hopefully the people in CHAZ learn from Animal Farm and shut Raz down now. Orwell would likely support CHAZ, he fight with the anarchists in Catalonia after all. People tend to not realize that Animal Farm was a criticism of the USSR from a socialist. It is not a criticism of all socialism or anarchism.
jacobush 6y ago
I thought you meant the US in general. Because that checks out. It has a Bill of Rights. And the Police has another, better Bill of Rights. Some animals are more equal than others.
- logicprog 6y ago
  See my above comment. We should have basically made the police equal to all other citizens (with the increase in self- and other- defense abilities that are required for the general public to make that possible), where the only difference is that the police are actively doing defense as a job. And police should be sued and arrested just like everyone else is.
  - Sylamore 6y ago
    Police are civilians and should be treated as such, it shouldn't be any more legal for them to do something any other civilian would face substantial legal penalties for without facing the same penalties.
    - logicprog 6y ago
      Exactly. Making police a class above was a mistake from the beginning. Suddenly you have a class that can use violence arbitrarily against the other class with hardly any penalty unless the "lower" class makes a big protest about it. It's really horrible and is a perfect system for turning "sheepdogs" (people who want to protect others) into "wolves" (people who pray on others) through peer-pressure, secretiveness, and lack of accountability. And worse, it draws wolves in the first place.
    - Sargos 6y ago
      So normal citizens should be able to put cuffs on other citizens? Put them into a car and drive off?
      - logicprog 6y ago
        And suffer the penalties of kidnapping if they do it for the wrong reasons, yes. This would do two things: one, people would have a huge incentive not to do that, and two, maybe we'd raise the threshold for jail and raise the penalty for wrongful imprisonments, meaning cops don't jail people for victemless crimes and we don't have such a massive prison population. Also, we could make laws saying that prisoners are only allowed to be kept at approved prisons; a law that could be applied equally to police and citizens, while ensuring the government gets to approve who gets imprisoned.
milquetoastaf 6y ago
Wow you are really smart! What an insightful reference. See ya in home room
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
GoodJokes 6y ago
If anyone actually walked through CHAZ they would realize how ridiculous and facile this comparison is. This is a facebook worthy boomer comment. Again and again I am reminded that techies aren't really that smart.
danharaj 6y ago
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism as I understand it." - George Orwell (1946)

docdeek 6y ago

One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way. https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

ciarannolan 6y ago
From the OP of that post: >tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1] So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ftkhmqn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...
- milquetoastaf 6y ago
  Because something like this would never happen with the police involved...
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    I don't think the person you were responding to ever made the claim that it would never happen if the police were there. I think the point is that it did happen. If this is supposed to be a utopia free of cops then they are doing a poor job. They have "cops" that beat up people for petty crimes.
- dev1n 6y ago
  Raz isn't a reason why the police exist. Raz is a product of a system where the police exist too much, which if given the proper social and educational services earlier in his life, his character and personality disorder exemplified here would have been nullified.
  - bathtub365 6y ago
    That idealism is great, but Raz exists today regardless. What’s your solution to that?
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. What does that have to do with the police existing "too much"?
    - thephyber 6y ago
      > This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty crime. That's exactly what caused all of these protests. > At what point are adults responsible for their own actions? It's constantly of interest to me how much "free will" actually exists. The more research comes out about environmental factors, the more we realize that people who suffer {home, food, employment, physical} insecurity exhibit symptoms as if they had a lower IQ and stress which is correlated with increased mental illness, stress, blood pressure, and other health problems. It also strikes me that the current legal corrections system really only works if we, as individuals, have significant ability to decide not to commit a crime as opposed to it being the most likely destiny based on our current {personal, environmental} state.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I assure you that's utterly false. There's tons of "Razes" in the country where I'm from, and very few police officers.
  - kemonocode 6y ago
    That doesn't sound like a good excuse for him. Sociopathic behaviors have existed since time immemorial, and the old approach before any form of formal law enforcement even existed was for tribes to enact social law enforcement and isolate or exile such undesirable elements-- and tyrants are born when you got enough armed people on your side to override societal rule. EDIT: Replaced a term for a more neutral one.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  > So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist. Yes, but not current american police. What is demonstrated here is that unchecked power is bad, which is pretty close to what the american police currently seems to have, leading to crimes like the one that started the whole protest.
  - logicprog 6y ago
    Well said. It's about checked power - abolishing police totally would just end up with them recreated again when the need arises, but without the proper infrastructure to control them. What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police. Police should be as accountable for their actions and mistakes as every other citizen (equality under the law!), or at least that's the idea. We can start by: - getting rid of police unions that hide information and do stuff like have police be judged by three of their peers, one picked by the accused, and prevent police from getting fired. - get rid of qualified immunity And so on.
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      > without the proper infrastructure to control them. Many, myself included, would argue that they're basically out of control right now. Just look at the sequence of events that unfolds almost to the letter after every unjustified police killing. At best the outcome is the cop involved resigns and quietly goes to work for another police department a few months down the line or retires with full benefits. Defund of course means a million things to a million people but a lot of what I'm hearing is about moving the armed police response to the minority of roles where it's needed. The amount of time you need an armed officer is a tiny fraction of the times they're there and they're not trained for the vast majority of the actual work they do. Under this defund is about taking the glut of resources allocated to cops and moving it to people better trained to deal with the kind of mental health, mediation, etc tasks that take up the bulk of police's actual time.
      - logicprog 6y ago
        I agree with you wholeheartedly on both points. I even said in my OG comment: "What we really need is a system of accountability and control over police." I know the police aren't well-controlled right now, that's why I was laying out a few ways to improve it! (: I would say, though, that our US police are more controlled than what's going on in the CHAZ, however slightly in some ways.
- quasarj 6y ago
  Well dang, we're certainly not inviting you to utopia.
- postingawayonhn 6y ago
  That must be the "localized anti-crime system".
tomschlick 6y ago
All their food was stolen by homeless people as well: https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024 https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1270731506890113024
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jpindar 6y ago
  That tweet is apparently a fake.
Miner49er 6y ago
Yeah. Hopefully the people in CHAZ learn from Animal Farm and shut Raz down now. Orwell would likely support CHAZ, he fight with the anarchists in Catalonia after all. People tend to not realize that Animal Farm was a criticism of the USSR from a socialist. It is not a criticism of all socialism or anarchism.

jacobush 6y ago

I thought you meant the US in general. Because that checks out. It has a Bill of Rights. And the Police has another, better Bill of Rights. Some animals are more equal than others.

logicprog 6y ago
See my above comment. We should have basically made the police equal to all other citizens (with the increase in self- and other- defense abilities that are required for the general public to make that possible), where the only difference is that the police are actively doing defense as a job. And police should be sued and arrested just like everyone else is.
- Sylamore 6y ago
  Police are civilians and should be treated as such, it shouldn't be any more legal for them to do something any other civilian would face substantial legal penalties for without facing the same penalties.
  - logicprog 6y ago
    Exactly. Making police a class above was a mistake from the beginning. Suddenly you have a class that can use violence arbitrarily against the other class with hardly any penalty unless the "lower" class makes a big protest about it. It's really horrible and is a perfect system for turning "sheepdogs" (people who want to protect others) into "wolves" (people who pray on others) through peer-pressure, secretiveness, and lack of accountability. And worse, it draws wolves in the first place.
  - Sargos 6y ago
    So normal citizens should be able to put cuffs on other citizens? Put them into a car and drive off?
    - logicprog 6y ago
      And suffer the penalties of kidnapping if they do it for the wrong reasons, yes. This would do two things: one, people would have a huge incentive not to do that, and two, maybe we'd raise the threshold for jail and raise the penalty for wrongful imprisonments, meaning cops don't jail people for victemless crimes and we don't have such a massive prison population. Also, we could make laws saying that prisoners are only allowed to be kept at approved prisons; a law that could be applied equally to police and citizens, while ensuring the government gets to approve who gets imprisoned.

milquetoastaf 6y ago

Wow you are really smart! What an insightful reference. See ya in home room

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

GoodJokes 6y ago

If anyone actually walked through CHAZ they would realize how ridiculous and facile this comparison is. This is a facebook worthy boomer comment. Again and again I am reminded that techies aren't really that smart.

danharaj 6y ago

"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism as I understand it." - George Orwell (1946)