6 ms·

Losing the Wayback Machine alone as a free resource would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria. It must be saved!

jariel 6y ago
"would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria." No, it would not even be close to that scale.
- jakeogh 6y ago
  I suspect so too, but please; if you know more please elaborate.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  Well yes, the library was smaller.
  - readarticle 6y ago
    And it was hardly the only one around at the time, many other libraries in many other Greek cities with Pergamum probably being the most notable.
    - kalium-xyz 6y ago
      The same can be said about the internet archive though.
      - drngdds 6y ago
        Can it? I don't know of any other public internet archive anywhere near the scale of the Wayback Machine.
        kalium-xyz 6y ago
        Its not an argument on the scale of the operation but rather if alternatives exist. I am merely stating that burning down a library is not less of a loss if an alternative exists, especially seeing that you'd need to find the new archive and get awareness out about its new location.
- kalium-xyz 6y ago
  The archived internet is far larger in text alone than everything published before the information age.
  - jariel 6y ago
    " far larger " ... 'size' is really not that important. What matters is the content, it's uniqueness and relative importance. Libraries, even books (let alone literacy) during antiquity were rare and generally unique, remember, this is before the printed press. The Library at Alexandria was a 'first-order' source of knowledge and wisdom, a place where 'intellectual luminaries' (i.e. big rabbis of the day) would have studied. Possibly every single book represented a unique bit of knowledge, and each one a historical artifact. Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like losing 15% of all Universities, professors, all of their papers, textbooks, 15% of authors, playwrights, all of their works, 15% of all written history - basically most or all copies of their works, vanished into thin air, for all of time. If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history pieced together. The Internet Archive is not even a 'second-order' resource. It's nice to have, and useful particularly for some historical reasons, but if it were to evaporate tomorrow, civilization wouldn't skip a beat. There is no specialized, arcane knowledge there. Parts of the IA are of course really nice to have, particularly the news which forms a kind of historical record. But old copies of 'HomeDepot.com' and 'McDonalds.com' are just not that important. We don't use the IA as a source of science, physics, fiction, students don't go to the IA to access authors' works or textbooks on orbital physics. If the contents of IA were seriously valuable, then quite a number of parties would be interested in maintaining it, first of all, the parties being documented (if HomeDepot.com doesn't care about their 2006 web-site, then maybe it's not so important). I support the IA and I would hope that it was even a kind of government-sponsored agency, but it's not an 'intellectual foundation'. (Edit: changed from 25% to 15%, it's just a number obviously, but my point being 'it's some material share of the compendium of knowledge')
    - kalium-xyz 6y ago
      The internet archive is a universal archive of the internet rather than just what is exposed trough their wayback machine. You are comparing a quantifiable well indexed archive of any online with one which is not quantifiable due to being lost to history. There are similarities between the efforts of the Library at Alexandria and the internet archive which make them comparable, so lets. >'size' is really not that important. [...] each one a historical artifact. The uniqueness of content in the internet archive is significantly greater by virtue of there simply being more unique knowledge at this point. Knowledge which would be lost (often intentionally) if not for efforts such as the internet archive, or that of the Library at Alexandria. The library made copies of the knowledge for the original owners rather than having the only copy. making every copy most likely non-unique. The value in its indexing is immense especially when you realize that useful information is only useful within a context where it can be applied and cannot be valued outside of it. >Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like ... This did not happen. >If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history [...] orbital physics. Imagine if a similar effort to archive exists today and in a few thousand years we would be able to use it, this is how I see the internet archive. The archive and efforts like it are used as a first source of knowledge by wikipedia, students, developers, researchers, anyone needing to verify a business existing prior to the investor call. If there was not an archive of the Feynman lectures I would know nothing about orbital physics now, if the current hosts are lost I am very very glad that the internet archive has a copy. >If the contents of IA [...] important). Personally I would like to know if homedepot existed 14 years ago if I wanted to do business with them and they claimed so, or if they tried to censor anything (that case of the US government having honeypot sites archives with code comes to mind). Things which would be lost if not for the specific functionality you are mentioning. Also there are many many other efforts, unlike you seem to state (e.g. archive.is, ipfs, the-eye.eu). Perhaps the most powerful argument: https://web.archive.org/web/*/news.ycombinator.com https://web.archive.org/web/*/news.ycombinator.com edit: I have archived our comments for historical context for anyone studying internet discussion in the year 3020 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105240/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23487004 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105240/https://news.ycom... https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105414/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23487419 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105414/https://news.ycom...
- Kim_Bruning 6y ago
  However, if you say "_New_ Library of Alexandria" it would be pretty much in the ballpark. http://www.bibalex.org/en/project/details?documentid=283 http://www.bibalex.org/en/project/details?documentid=283 Mostly because the (New) Library of Alexandria hosts a copy of the Internet Archive.

jariel 6y ago

"would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria." No, it would not even be close to that scale.

jakeogh 6y ago
I suspect so too, but please; if you know more please elaborate.
Ygg2 6y ago
Well yes, the library was smaller.
- readarticle 6y ago
  And it was hardly the only one around at the time, many other libraries in many other Greek cities with Pergamum probably being the most notable.
  - kalium-xyz 6y ago
    The same can be said about the internet archive though.
    - drngdds 6y ago
      Can it? I don't know of any other public internet archive anywhere near the scale of the Wayback Machine.
      - kalium-xyz 6y ago
        Its not an argument on the scale of the operation but rather if alternatives exist. I am merely stating that burning down a library is not less of a loss if an alternative exists, especially seeing that you'd need to find the new archive and get awareness out about its new location.
kalium-xyz 6y ago
The archived internet is far larger in text alone than everything published before the information age.
- jariel 6y ago
  " far larger " ... 'size' is really not that important. What matters is the content, it's uniqueness and relative importance. Libraries, even books (let alone literacy) during antiquity were rare and generally unique, remember, this is before the printed press. The Library at Alexandria was a 'first-order' source of knowledge and wisdom, a place where 'intellectual luminaries' (i.e. big rabbis of the day) would have studied. Possibly every single book represented a unique bit of knowledge, and each one a historical artifact. Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like losing 15% of all Universities, professors, all of their papers, textbooks, 15% of authors, playwrights, all of their works, 15% of all written history - basically most or all copies of their works, vanished into thin air, for all of time. If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history pieced together. The Internet Archive is not even a 'second-order' resource. It's nice to have, and useful particularly for some historical reasons, but if it were to evaporate tomorrow, civilization wouldn't skip a beat. There is no specialized, arcane knowledge there. Parts of the IA are of course really nice to have, particularly the news which forms a kind of historical record. But old copies of 'HomeDepot.com' and 'McDonalds.com' are just not that important. We don't use the IA as a source of science, physics, fiction, students don't go to the IA to access authors' works or textbooks on orbital physics. If the contents of IA were seriously valuable, then quite a number of parties would be interested in maintaining it, first of all, the parties being documented (if HomeDepot.com doesn't care about their 2006 web-site, then maybe it's not so important). I support the IA and I would hope that it was even a kind of government-sponsored agency, but it's not an 'intellectual foundation'. (Edit: changed from 25% to 15%, it's just a number obviously, but my point being 'it's some material share of the compendium of knowledge')
  - kalium-xyz 6y ago
    The internet archive is a universal archive of the internet rather than just what is exposed trough their wayback machine. You are comparing a quantifiable well indexed archive of any online with one which is not quantifiable due to being lost to history. There are similarities between the efforts of the Library at Alexandria and the internet archive which make them comparable, so lets. >'size' is really not that important. [...] each one a historical artifact. The uniqueness of content in the internet archive is significantly greater by virtue of there simply being more unique knowledge at this point. Knowledge which would be lost (often intentionally) if not for efforts such as the internet archive, or that of the Library at Alexandria. The library made copies of the knowledge for the original owners rather than having the only copy. making every copy most likely non-unique. The value in its indexing is immense especially when you realize that useful information is only useful within a context where it can be applied and cannot be valued outside of it. >Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like ... This did not happen. >If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history [...] orbital physics. Imagine if a similar effort to archive exists today and in a few thousand years we would be able to use it, this is how I see the internet archive. The archive and efforts like it are used as a first source of knowledge by wikipedia, students, developers, researchers, anyone needing to verify a business existing prior to the investor call. If there was not an archive of the Feynman lectures I would know nothing about orbital physics now, if the current hosts are lost I am very very glad that the internet archive has a copy. >If the contents of IA [...] important). Personally I would like to know if homedepot existed 14 years ago if I wanted to do business with them and they claimed so, or if they tried to censor anything (that case of the US government having honeypot sites archives with code comes to mind). Things which would be lost if not for the specific functionality you are mentioning. Also there are many many other efforts, unlike you seem to state (e.g. archive.is, ipfs, the-eye.eu). Perhaps the most powerful argument: https://web.archive.org/web/*/news.ycombinator.com https://web.archive.org/web/*/news.ycombinator.com edit: I have archived our comments for historical context for anyone studying internet discussion in the year 3020 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105240/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23487004 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105240/https://news.ycom... https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105414/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23487419 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105414/https://news.ycom...
Kim_Bruning 6y ago
However, if you say "_New_ Library of Alexandria" it would be pretty much in the ballpark. http://www.bibalex.org/en/project/details?documentid=283 http://www.bibalex.org/en/project/details?documentid=283 Mostly because the (New) Library of Alexandria hosts a copy of the Internet Archive.