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This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have n

• dudul 6y ago
  Do you have significant amount of control? Maybe I've been lucky to be part of mostly healthy organizations, but even managers have to justify/explain decisions. Either be for termination, compensation adjustment, reassigning to a different team, etc. I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it comes to that. Yes, of course you have some control, but it's not unchecked.
  • toyg 6y ago
    You know that, but your underlings really don't. Yeah you can try telling them you're very constrained, but they'll think you're just passing the buck (which a lot of managers do, "it's out of my hands" etc etc). And I'm sure you can still influence things like who goes on holiday when, and stuff like that.
  • groby_b 6y ago
    But your people don't see the checks in action. For all they know, you've passed those already. The main thing is, there is a power differential, and "firing" jokes are, at their core, saying "I have power over you". It's just not that funny. And for new managers who feel compelled to make them, "why does my power make me giddy" is a good introspective question to ask. No, that doesn't imply they are bad people. New power does things to everybody's mood. But asking the question helps remind yourself. (For an entire framework to keep that impulse in check, servant leadership works pretty well, IME)
  • rco8786 6y ago
    Yea of course but the employee generally has no visibility into those processes, especially when it comes to job termination.
  • munchbunny 6y ago
    I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it comes to that. Having that system in place isn't enough. You need that system to have teeth, and you need to have someone with as much power as you who will review your decisions and play devil's advocate. In many teams I've seen with documentation and HR hurdles, they're not real hurdles, they're just there so that there's a paper trail at all. That's because: 1. Most people in the company including the manager's boss and possibly even most teammates of the employee don't see enough of the employee's work, so it's often the manager's word vs. employee's. A bad manager will exploit that, intentionally or unintentionally. 2. When in doubt, the management hierarchy tends to side with the manager on things, because they by default trust the manager more than the employee and their view of the facts of the situation usually comes from the manager. A bad manager will intentionally or unintentionally editorialize the facts on their way up the hierarchy. 3. HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or suspect reasoning. A bad manager will just shove decisions through HR, intentionally or unintentionally. In all of those places, there were systems in place where managers had to document those decisions, but there wasn't real accountability, so the systems were nominal at best.
    • OJFord 6y ago
      What's a 'protected class of worker'? I'm aware of 'protected characteristics', but they cut both ways, not something you can be or not be.
      • munchbunny 6y ago
        "Characteristics" works too. I meant the categories that fall under employment description in general: https://www.eeoc.gov/youth/what-employment-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/youth/what-employment-discrimination Specifically, I meant that when you're firing someone who falls into those categories, HR will often require you to document extra well why it's not employment discrimination, in case there's a lawsuit.
  • wpietri 6y ago
    You must work at a pretty healthy company. Because those checks also exist at unhealthy companies, but there managers just know how to work the system. E.g., I know somebody whose manager was pushed out for political reasons. Their first meeting with their new boss, the one who did the pushing, was a 90-minute series of accusations and critiques. In the second meeting, they were presented with a letter documenting the critiques and their poor response. Their third meeting was a no-notice, no-severance layoff and a security escort to the door. It turned out the people "laid off" were all the ones hired by the old boss, even though the company was hiring for the same roles at the same time. So the new boss was just cleaning house, making sure the people in key positions were loyal to him. But it was all documented and justified.
    • BuckRogers 6y ago
      And that is why I want a union or professional organization. That level of nonsense needs a mechanism to resist with. How many lives and marriages, families suffered for political moves mostly for nothing by some lunatic.
      • pc86 6y ago
        I would rather live with the risk of a political firing than make it unnecessarily difficult to fire poor performers.
        • jessaustin 6y ago
          Is it possible you've been brainwashed? I've never worked at a job that was so important as to make firing so vital. Most corporations are littered with deadwood. If firing "poor performers" is of no importance, how could it be more important than my comfort at my job? In fact, pretty much the only jobs that remain unionized are the ones we all pretend are really extra super important, like police and teachers.
        • wpietri 6y ago
          Then maybe help unionize your workplace and advocate for that. Unions don't have to protect poor performers. They could just as well be stringent about them. I think a lot of the impression people have of unions is from places with really hostile labor/manager relationships. Under those conditions, it's easy to treat the workplace as a zero-sum battleground. But especially in tech, where we have a culture of shared gain and literal shared ownership, it's possible for workers to advocate for things like improved efficiency.
• bananamerica 6y ago
  Minor fix for clarity: > If you're a manager, part of your job is to do things that make you uncomfortable
• imsofuture 6y ago
  If you're a manager, your job is to do things that make you uncomfortable. Yep, one thing I noticed when I moved into a management role, was that the things that would make you move along as an employee, are the things it's now your job to fix or deal with. Maybe this is obvious, but there's kind of a visceral shift in perception that goes along with it.
  • Aeolun 6y ago
    Jup, I'm not empowered to do anything myself, so I have to rely on you. If you as my manager are not able to do anything either, we're part of a sick organization, and the only thing to do is leave.
    • loopz 6y ago
      As your circle expand, it is impossible not to notice the walls and blockers that are endemic. If one doesn't see this, it's often because that person is in their own little bubble, and not doing much to improve the organization either. Often, it takes both employees and managers to really make the shifts, over many many years. By the time it happens, the individual contributions are mostly forgotten or employee left long ago.
• korijn 6y ago
  > If you can't handle sitting there and telling them you're letting them go in person, it's probably not the path for you I do think this is something you can learn. Having a good mentor/coach helps. I had a hard time with this personally, but after all these years I've seen almost every seat be replaced (more than once, too) and I've gotten used to it. You have to become more consciously aware that a business relationship is a separate thing from a friendly/family relationship.
• A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  Agreed. Long time ago I had a manager, who was using his firing history as a motivational tool. He would walk somewhere behind you and tell someone else a story that was supposed to partially mirror a story about you. Very subtle. He also loved bad jokes, but he was smart enough not to joke about firing people.
  • throwanem 6y ago
    There's nothing subtle about that kind of behavior. Contemptible, yes, but not subtle.
    • perl4ever 6y ago
      You could call it transparency. It's vastly better to have someone make you aware of what's up than blindside you or gaslight you by giving contradictory information/demands.
      • Grimm1 6y ago
        Or you know, have a meeting where your manager directly discusses the issue with you like an adult.
        • throwanem 6y ago
          Yeah, exactly. It's pretty wild to see "transparency" invoked in the context of literally talking behind someone's back.
          • Grimm1 6y ago
            Yeah I did a double take there. I personally believe that someone with that management methodology is entirely unfit for their position.
          • perl4ever 6y ago
            "Literally" talking behind someone's back, as you put it, is not talking behind someone's back, in the normal sense. So what's wild about calling it transparent?
• momokoko 6y ago
  > is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you Higher level performers tend to disproportionately believe then need to improve so they tend to take group jokes or threats of termination much more seriously than underperformers. Be very very careful making groups statements and jokes about performance and firings. It’s a fast track to losing high performers who leave because they start to believe they are not wanted and not doing a good job.
  • TheBlight 6y ago
    Do you have a citation for this phenomenon you claim wrt higher level performers?
    • throwaway3563 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome "... five subgroups this syndrome often falls into. - The perfectionist - The superwoman/man - The natural genius - The soloist - The expert"
      • P-ala-din 6y ago
        "While early research focused on the prevalence among high-achieving women, impostor syndrome has been recognized to affect both men and women equally." "The researchers concluded that the women who participated in this study experienced impostor phenomenon more so than the men who participated." am I misparsing this sentence? how can both be true?
        • dragonwriter 6y ago
          The first is characterizing a broad collection of research findings since the early identification of the phenomenon, the other the particular survey.
          • P-ala-din 6y ago
• asdfman123 6y ago
  I've discovered when there's a power dynamic going on between two people, it's usually not a very good idea to pretend like that doesn't exist -- despite the fact that it is my natural inclination to joke about it and downplay it. Instead, I find it's better to be kind, take things seriously and treat people with respect. Yes, the power dynamic exists. Yes, I believe it's somewhat unfair and I wish society wasn't structured that way. But make up for it by being kind, being direct and treating people fairly. Otherwise, it just comes across as an inability to accept responsibility, and if someone with power over you doesn't seem predictable it just feels scary and unstable. Or worse, you'll give people the impression that you're actively taking pleasure in toying with them.
  • Kaze404 6y ago
    I agree with this. I recently had an honestly disastrous experience at a job because we tried to pretend that power dynamic doesn't exist. My boss (the CTO) considered me a friend and vice versa, but that made every work interaction so awkward (for me at least) because I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee. I attribute this as both of us being incredibly young (lower 20s) and naive, but we still hold a lot of respect for each other now that I'm not working there anymore.
    • goatinaboat 6y ago
      I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.
      • jessaustin 6y ago
        It might work the other way too? Either a bad employee or a bad friend? Or maybe it would be both?
      • mark-r 6y ago
        A couple of weeks ago my family binge-watched "The Office". That show demonstrates the truth of that saying very well.
• fossuser 6y ago
  I think it's good advice because the prediction of the social situation around becoming a manager is accurate (and often not discussed at all). It is awkward for people to go from not being a manager to being a manager among their peers. In new social situations I think that 'awkwardness' is actually uncertainty about how to behave because you haven't been in that position before. A lot of social skills seem to be based on accurate models/predictions of what to do in certain situations in order to bond with people. When you're suddenly a manager the old tools don't work as well and people try to generate that camaraderie with humor, but for the reasons listed in the article this can be particularly bad if done poorly. Other jokes I've noticed in addition to the firing thing, are annoying humble brag comments like, "Can you believe X important person wanted to talk to me about this thing?". I think they're trying to signal that they don't think they're important, but the obvious context just comes across as bragging. I think people get more respect when they just recognize the role they're in and are more confident about it (but that probably comes with experience of navigating that social situation). A good lead will explain these things directly to a new manager because the social bits are not obvious and are uncomfortable. This is even more important in fields where the baseline social skills may be not quite at par anyway. One advantage is that if you have knowledge of this, and you can model the way others think about it - you can actually be a force to make people more comfortable than they'd otherwise be. Encouraging them to ask questions by asking yourself in front of them when you don't know something. Suggesting they go home early if something is bothering them and that you do it too. Reassuring them if they're doing a good job or if something they're working on is particularly tricky etc. A good manager can do a lot to make someone feel safe/secure and make them happy, which is often a prerequisite for them to be a strong member of the team and stay for a long time.
• llimos 6y ago
  I had a manager do this to me once. In a situation where I knew for sure he was joking. I was top of the department, and it wasn't even in the context of having done anything wrong. He had just been given some new responsibilities, and I asked him what he was planning to change, and he said, totally jokingly, 'well, today is your last day.' And I knew 100% it was a joke, and I still felt a horrible sinking feeling for a fraction of a second that was enough for me to promise myself that, should I ever be a manager, I would never ever do that to anyone. Fast forward a couple of years, I'm a manager in a different company, the company wants to move everyone over to a different legal entity by firing and then rehiring them. Totally innocuous. Remembering the above conversation and self-promise, I planned very carefully how to tell my team and in which order to say the words, and... someone interrupted with a question and I managed to cause exactly that moment of panic I'd been trying to avoid. You win some, you lose some...but at least I wasn't doing it as a joke.
  • nyokodo 6y ago
    I understand that sometimes the topic of a conversation can't be revealed beforehand. However, I wish more managers would give some kind of indication beforehand about how anxious one should be about it because for many people the worst-case scenario is the default presumption.
    • llimos 6y ago
      Totally agree, and I actually did do that! I started by saying, 'There is absolutely nothing to worry about, everything is totally fine' - but of course nothing worries people like being told there is nothing to worry about :) I had a great relationship with my team and no-one held it against me, it's just that moment of emotional response that gives a shock until the rational mind kicks in.
    • toomanybeersies 6y ago
      I think it's best to keep the notice for that kind of meeting as short as possible. My work cut our hours by 20%, and we were given notice about the meeting only a couple of hours beforehand. It would be cruel to schedule that kind of meeting for several days in time, leaving your staff in purgatory, wondering if they should get a head start on looking for a new job.
• jessaustin 6y ago
  Have the decency to look someone in the eye. This is true even if you're not firing somebody. In my first "real" job, I didn't report directly to the guy who negotiated pay. Maybe that was a little weird, but it could have worked. Except, the way he would discuss raises was to wait until some afternoon I was really busy with actual work, and then sneak into my office and blurt "your-raise-this-year-is-$10-congratulations-it-was-good-to-talk-with-you-I'll-be-pretty-busy-for-the-next-few-weeks-ok-bye!" He was literally gone before I had the presence of mind to greet him. This is the same guy who would insist on all sorts of procedures if anyone (e.g. my manager's manager) wanted to meet with him. Geoff, wow, what a tool.
• petrocrat 6y ago
  I have definitely started a job search after a superior joked about us being "replaceable". It wasn't even directed at me particularly, but there was a chance it was in reference to either the departments performance in general or possibly financial constraints of the department. The risk analysis on that from an employee perspective is a no-brainer: start making contingency plans.
• ChuckMcM 6y ago
  It is sound advice and it is difficult if you're friends with people where you had an easy camaraderie before the promotion. I have had this bite me a couple of times with people for whom I felt I knew really well and was really comfortable with joking about pretty much anything. Only to find out later that the joke was anything but. The hard and fast rule has to be both don't joke about firing and don't talk to someone else's direct reports about the performance of their manager.