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Some context: Babylon is a (US owned) health conglomorate that has come under a lot of flack lately in the UK for: (a) promoting a "Virtual assistant doctor" -

Some context: Babylon is a (US owned) health conglomorate that has come under a lot of flack lately in the UK for: (a) promoting a "Virtual assistant doctor" -- glorified series of 20 questions -- that did not spot medical 'red flags' like chest pain, breathlessness at rest, etc; providing dangerous and inappropriate advice (b) fleecing the NHS on expensive contracts and aggressively marketing "phone first" or "digital first" consultations (c) "partnering" with NHS Digital and NHS X to build their commercial products upon medical records (this is related to the 'Care.data' programme); (d) generally speaking, muscling into "core" NHS territory (if you use their app, you used to be automatically de-registered from your real-life GP -- meaning that they got some money for providing GP services instead) (e) having several high-up executives who have made significant donations to the Tory party, or who are Tory members. I'm somehow not surprised they've had a data leak.

djmobley 6y ago
Babylon is not US owned, nor is it a conglomerate. Everyone I’ve spoken to who uses the Babylon powered NHS GP at Hand service in the UK seems happy enough with it. They claim a 96% satisfaction score.
- epanchin 6y ago
  It’s hard to get a GP appointment in many areas in the UK, anything more convenient is likely to make people happy. Do they know their video chats were recorded and retained?
  - martimarkov 6y ago
    I should have been aware if I read the T&C but I didn’t. Kinda annoyed at Babylon and deffo not happy with them as a consumer but I do take fault for not reading the T&C. And I only used it because I couldn’t get a GP appointment in time and didn’t want to waste the time of the doctors in A&E
  - cameronh90 6y ago
    They appear within the app to replay, so I would assume so.
- shubb 6y ago
  Access to NHS non emergency services requires gp registration, and NHS gp registration requires proof you live near the surgery. If you are a contractor living in shared houses and moving every few months, you cannot get this proof of address and cannot access NHS care. Normal gp surgeries do not seem to want to register patients. They push back really hard at the slightest opportunity. Babylon seem to want to register patients. They registered me based on my parents address. I could get video appointments, in person appointments near me in different cities all over the UK, and referral to a hospital near where I was working. After about 10 years of no healthcare in was able to get some chronic issues sorted. NHS is not perfect, and we shouldn't shit on all innovation.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > and NHS gp registration requires proof you live near the surgery. No. It is helpful for the GP surgery if they can prove your identity and know where you live, but they must not refuse to register you if you do not provide ID. Chapter 8, page 141: https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/primary-medical-care-policy-and-guidance-manual-pgm/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/primary-medical-care-... I know a bunch of GP surgeries tell you that you must provide ID, but they're wrong. I can help you put complaints into the relevant CCG if this is still a problem for you. They have to offer out-of-hours and home visit services, but they only have to provide these to people who live inside their catchment area. > Babylon seem to want to register patients. Initially Babylon were doing the same thing -- refusing to register patients who couldn't provide ID. They were stopped from doing it by user complaints.
    - shubb 6y ago
      Sorry for the late reply, perhaps you will read this. I am aware that the regulations should allow GP surgery to register a person with limited ID to register, but my experience was that, even after exchanging emails from practice managers they were not willing to do so. I was not aware that the CCGs were the right place to push back - will know for next time. Like I said I'm currently using Babylon, and my experience is that bluntly they refer you for whatever you ask for with little assessment or care on their part. Which is fine by me but would be terrible for my gran.
caoilte 6y ago
Their real crime is trying to cream off the healthy patients onto their service. GP services get paid a flat fee per patient regardless of how much attention that patient needs. Babylon is trying to attract healthy tech savvy patients from across London and is leaving the more challenging patients to local GPs who will now be cash strapped.
- shawabawa3 6y ago
  Imo this is uncharitable to Babylon They are trying to attract patients to their service of course, that's their business. The NHS hasn't properly recalibrated costs per patients and so it happens that the type of patients Babylon gets (young, tech savvy) are higher margin patients It's not true that gps get a flat fee, the fees are scaled depending on patient age and other factors, but still aren't in line with costs
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It's reasonable to be uncharitable to private orgs that threaten public goods for profit. The NHS needing to improve efficiencies and fix systemic failings is one thing, allowing a private org to privatize profits (skimming high margin patients) while socializing the losses (dumping patients requiring more care on the NHS) is quite another. Disclaimer: American, familiar with broken, dysfunctional healthcare. Protect what you have. The alternative is not so good.
  - caoilte 6y ago
    I didn't know it was scaled. That's better than nothing. Thanks for clarification.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    When Babylon started they had explicit exclusions for certain types of patients: pregnant women, people with severe and enduring mental illness, and a few others. They had to drop those because that's not how general practice works in England. But it's reasonable for people to remember this and to hold Babylon to account for it.
roldie 6y ago
They're not a US company. Nor are they a conglomerate. Source: I used to work for them.
josemanuel 6y ago
Babylon Health is a UK company.
geoffw8 6y ago
Firstly they're based in London. (a) is not (entirely) correct. There are literally hundreds of epidemiologists, doctors, NLP engineers, etc that have worked on the models. They are not 20 questions. (I'm definitely not saying its perfect!) (b) is false. Babylon get paid as any other GP practice does with a fee per patient (on the NHS side). Digital & phone first is GREAT. I've had appointments 7 minutes after opening the app before. (d) is also not correct, it depends which of their services you use. GP @ Hand is pretty explicit about that being the case - it's the entire value proposition. If you use the private service (as I do) then you keep your GP (I spoke to mine this morning). (e) I'm not really sure how this makes it more likely they would have a data leak? You almost couldn't have got any more of what you said wrong - why the hate?

djmobley 6y ago

Babylon is not US owned, nor is it a conglomerate. Everyone I’ve spoken to who uses the Babylon powered NHS GP at Hand service in the UK seems happy enough with it. They claim a 96% satisfaction score.

epanchin 6y ago
It’s hard to get a GP appointment in many areas in the UK, anything more convenient is likely to make people happy. Do they know their video chats were recorded and retained?
- martimarkov 6y ago
  I should have been aware if I read the T&C but I didn’t. Kinda annoyed at Babylon and deffo not happy with them as a consumer but I do take fault for not reading the T&C. And I only used it because I couldn’t get a GP appointment in time and didn’t want to waste the time of the doctors in A&E
- cameronh90 6y ago
  They appear within the app to replay, so I would assume so.
shubb 6y ago
Access to NHS non emergency services requires gp registration, and NHS gp registration requires proof you live near the surgery. If you are a contractor living in shared houses and moving every few months, you cannot get this proof of address and cannot access NHS care. Normal gp surgeries do not seem to want to register patients. They push back really hard at the slightest opportunity. Babylon seem to want to register patients. They registered me based on my parents address. I could get video appointments, in person appointments near me in different cities all over the UK, and referral to a hospital near where I was working. After about 10 years of no healthcare in was able to get some chronic issues sorted. NHS is not perfect, and we shouldn't shit on all innovation.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > and NHS gp registration requires proof you live near the surgery. No. It is helpful for the GP surgery if they can prove your identity and know where you live, but they must not refuse to register you if you do not provide ID. Chapter 8, page 141: https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/primary-medical-care-policy-and-guidance-manual-pgm/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/primary-medical-care-... I know a bunch of GP surgeries tell you that you must provide ID, but they're wrong. I can help you put complaints into the relevant CCG if this is still a problem for you. They have to offer out-of-hours and home visit services, but they only have to provide these to people who live inside their catchment area. > Babylon seem to want to register patients. Initially Babylon were doing the same thing -- refusing to register patients who couldn't provide ID. They were stopped from doing it by user complaints.
  - shubb 6y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, perhaps you will read this. I am aware that the regulations should allow GP surgery to register a person with limited ID to register, but my experience was that, even after exchanging emails from practice managers they were not willing to do so. I was not aware that the CCGs were the right place to push back - will know for next time. Like I said I'm currently using Babylon, and my experience is that bluntly they refer you for whatever you ask for with little assessment or care on their part. Which is fine by me but would be terrible for my gran.

caoilte 6y ago

Their real crime is trying to cream off the healthy patients onto their service. GP services get paid a flat fee per patient regardless of how much attention that patient needs. Babylon is trying to attract healthy tech savvy patients from across London and is leaving the more challenging patients to local GPs who will now be cash strapped.

shawabawa3 6y ago
Imo this is uncharitable to Babylon They are trying to attract patients to their service of course, that's their business. The NHS hasn't properly recalibrated costs per patients and so it happens that the type of patients Babylon gets (young, tech savvy) are higher margin patients It's not true that gps get a flat fee, the fees are scaled depending on patient age and other factors, but still aren't in line with costs
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  It's reasonable to be uncharitable to private orgs that threaten public goods for profit. The NHS needing to improve efficiencies and fix systemic failings is one thing, allowing a private org to privatize profits (skimming high margin patients) while socializing the losses (dumping patients requiring more care on the NHS) is quite another. Disclaimer: American, familiar with broken, dysfunctional healthcare. Protect what you have. The alternative is not so good.
- caoilte 6y ago
  I didn't know it was scaled. That's better than nothing. Thanks for clarification.
- DanBC 6y ago
  When Babylon started they had explicit exclusions for certain types of patients: pregnant women, people with severe and enduring mental illness, and a few others. They had to drop those because that's not how general practice works in England. But it's reasonable for people to remember this and to hold Babylon to account for it.

roldie 6y ago

They're not a US company. Nor are they a conglomerate. Source: I used to work for them.

josemanuel 6y ago

Babylon Health is a UK company.

geoffw8 6y ago

Firstly they're based in London. (a) is not (entirely) correct. There are literally hundreds of epidemiologists, doctors, NLP engineers, etc that have worked on the models. They are not 20 questions. (I'm definitely not saying its perfect!) (b) is false. Babylon get paid as any other GP practice does with a fee per patient (on the NHS side). Digital & phone first is GREAT. I've had appointments 7 minutes after opening the app before. (d) is also not correct, it depends which of their services you use. GP @ Hand is pretty explicit about that being the case - it's the entire value proposition. If you use the private service (as I do) then you keep your GP (I spoke to mine this morning). (e) I'm not really sure how this makes it more likely they would have a data leak? You almost couldn't have got any more of what you said wrong - why the hate?