8 ms·

Too Many of America’s Smartest Waste Their Talents (2018)

42 points by jseliger 6y ago

LatteLazy 6y ago
Edit: The article is here http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180620000867 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180620000867 Can't get outline working, anyone got a way past the pay wall?
- kencausey 6y ago
  With μMatrix set to block everything but original HTML and Firefox's Reader mode it appears that I get the entire text.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    Thanks, I’ll give that a whirl too...
- vulcan01 6y ago
  https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-meritocracy-asian-americans-college-admissions-harvard-0620-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec... Same text, non-paywalled.
- osdiab 6y ago
  The Unpaywall iOS workflow worked fine for me! https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/bypass-paywalls-safari-read-any-article-your-iphone-0209344/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/bypass-paywalls-safari-re...
ikeyany 6y ago
I used to think Noah Smith's articles missed the bigger picture, but for the last several years he has been right on the money. Every student in a good school should read this before graduating.
- stevenwliao 6y ago
  How does a student determine if a role produces real value?
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    > The upshot is that many of the country’s best and brightest are either exerting their talents trying to beat each other out in a zero-sum trading game, or exploiting legal and behavioral loopholes to part investors from their money. This can be hard to tell from the outside, but there will always be a point during your job where you truly understand what it is you're actually being paid to do. If this can be gleamed ahead of time from the experiences of others in the industry, then more power to you.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Everything in this article is wrong. The moment you question any of it, it becomes obvious it’s nonsense. In America at least, elite university’s are private so they don’t cost society. And even in state institutions, the amount that state(s) contribute has been falling rapidly. The USA has a private system run according to the whims of donors. You might think it “should” be a meritocracy as part of a wider fair society. I might even agree. But that’s not what it is. Complaining it’s bad at that when that isn’t what it’s for is... not even wrong. And that’s before we get to the thrust of the article... Pfft.
- EliRivers 6y ago
  Are you interpreting "cost to society" as "money that is paid by the state" and nothing more? I suspect many people have a broader definition of "cost to society" than just "how much money the public purse has to give to someone".
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    How would you work out the cost to society of elite universities? I'm happy to consider other things. I should disclose that I think the US has very little society, the US is very much about individuals alone or in small groups, not a society as a whole. That's another side of the point I make above. In Europe these institutions are overwhelmingly publically funded and part of a wider social fabric. In the US the opposite is true...
    - EliRivers 6y ago
      If we consider the cost of something to be "that which has to be given up to have it", then part of the cost of smart people going to elite universities and being funneled into finance is that they don't get funneled into doing something useful [0]. Much as a number of very smart people get funneled into coming up with ways to sell advertising space on the Facebook. These smart people could have gone into any number of industries that are a lot more useful to society (which basically means "other people") than finance and selling adverts. [0] Harsh and hyperbolic for effect, but it makes a point.
quantified 6y ago
The unstated question is “what are the (compelling) incentives to change the incentives”?
karmakaze 6y ago
> it [America] then employs [...] The choice is made my the graduates not the country (unless there's government involvement) or companies. It's just capitalism doing it's thing. If we want that to change we have to collectively value something other than financial wealth more, after having some reasonably attainable amount that's 'enough'.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  If you have 200k in student loans and a choice between a 100k pa finance job and a 30k pa teacher in an inner city school job, do you actually have a choice or has society choose for you already? I agree with your second paragraph but that's as true for tax payers setting salaries for useful jobs as it is for would-be employees deciding between offers...
  - karmakaze 6y ago
    Yes, many more than those two.
medium_burrito 6y ago
If the cost of living wasn't so high, I suspect the smartest would choose to do other things. For example, looking at JPL engineering salaries on glassdoor, the median seems to be around $100k. That's just not enough if you want to live in Pasadena comfortably, especially if you compare it with a FAANG salary.
- mycall 6y ago
  It's almost like the economy is doing exactly what it was setup to do: extract as much money from the system as possible for the good of the share holders. Overtime, the system starts to decay because of the initial goal.
- thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
  Yup, lack of societal wealth and scarcity are driving the decisions of where to work. Personally, I might have become a teacher (instead of an engineer) if COL wasn't so high. High COL is a sign of societal wealth deprivation.
linuxftw 6y ago
Are these really "America's Smartest" or are these just the median college student? Smartest, or self-selecting for those who like doing a large amount of schoolwork? Smart people choose the highest reward with the least degree of difficulty, risk adjusted.

42 points by jseliger 6y ago

Edit: The article is here http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180620000867 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180620000867 Can't get outline working, anyone got a way past the pay wall?

kencausey 6y ago
With μMatrix set to block everything but original HTML and Firefox's Reader mode it appears that I get the entire text.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Thanks, I’ll give that a whirl too...
vulcan01 6y ago
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-meritocracy-asian-americans-college-admissions-harvard-0620-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec... Same text, non-paywalled.
osdiab 6y ago
The Unpaywall iOS workflow worked fine for me! https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/bypass-paywalls-safari-read-any-article-your-iphone-0209344/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/bypass-paywalls-safari-re...

ikeyany 6y ago

I used to think Noah Smith's articles missed the bigger picture, but for the last several years he has been right on the money. Every student in a good school should read this before graduating.

stevenwliao 6y ago
How does a student determine if a role produces real value?
- ikeyany 6y ago
  > The upshot is that many of the country’s best and brightest are either exerting their talents trying to beat each other out in a zero-sum trading game, or exploiting legal and behavioral loopholes to part investors from their money. This can be hard to tell from the outside, but there will always be a point during your job where you truly understand what it is you're actually being paid to do. If this can be gleamed ahead of time from the experiences of others in the industry, then more power to you.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Everything in this article is wrong. The moment you question any of it, it becomes obvious it’s nonsense. In America at least, elite university’s are private so they don’t cost society. And even in state institutions, the amount that state(s) contribute has been falling rapidly. The USA has a private system run according to the whims of donors. You might think it “should” be a meritocracy as part of a wider fair society. I might even agree. But that’s not what it is. Complaining it’s bad at that when that isn’t what it’s for is... not even wrong. And that’s before we get to the thrust of the article... Pfft.

EliRivers 6y ago
Are you interpreting "cost to society" as "money that is paid by the state" and nothing more? I suspect many people have a broader definition of "cost to society" than just "how much money the public purse has to give to someone".
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  How would you work out the cost to society of elite universities? I'm happy to consider other things. I should disclose that I think the US has very little society, the US is very much about individuals alone or in small groups, not a society as a whole. That's another side of the point I make above. In Europe these institutions are overwhelmingly publically funded and part of a wider social fabric. In the US the opposite is true...
  - EliRivers 6y ago
    If we consider the cost of something to be "that which has to be given up to have it", then part of the cost of smart people going to elite universities and being funneled into finance is that they don't get funneled into doing something useful [0]. Much as a number of very smart people get funneled into coming up with ways to sell advertising space on the Facebook. These smart people could have gone into any number of industries that are a lot more useful to society (which basically means "other people") than finance and selling adverts. [0] Harsh and hyperbolic for effect, but it makes a point.

quantified 6y ago

The unstated question is “what are the (compelling) incentives to change the incentives”?

karmakaze 6y ago

> it [America] then employs [...] The choice is made my the graduates not the country (unless there's government involvement) or companies. It's just capitalism doing it's thing. If we want that to change we have to collectively value something other than financial wealth more, after having some reasonably attainable amount that's 'enough'.

LatteLazy 6y ago
If you have 200k in student loans and a choice between a 100k pa finance job and a 30k pa teacher in an inner city school job, do you actually have a choice or has society choose for you already? I agree with your second paragraph but that's as true for tax payers setting salaries for useful jobs as it is for would-be employees deciding between offers...
- karmakaze 6y ago
  Yes, many more than those two.

medium_burrito 6y ago

If the cost of living wasn't so high, I suspect the smartest would choose to do other things. For example, looking at JPL engineering salaries on glassdoor, the median seems to be around $100k. That's just not enough if you want to live in Pasadena comfortably, especially if you compare it with a FAANG salary.

mycall 6y ago
It's almost like the economy is doing exactly what it was setup to do: extract as much money from the system as possible for the good of the share holders. Overtime, the system starts to decay because of the initial goal.
thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
Yup, lack of societal wealth and scarcity are driving the decisions of where to work. Personally, I might have become a teacher (instead of an engineer) if COL wasn't so high. High COL is a sign of societal wealth deprivation.

linuxftw 6y ago

Are these really "America's Smartest" or are these just the median college student? Smartest, or self-selecting for those who like doing a large amount of schoolwork? Smart people choose the highest reward with the least degree of difficulty, risk adjusted.