5 ms·

Show no mercy: The tragedy in Xinjiang

44 points by dsr12 6y ago

dsr12 6y ago
I have always wondered how could the world allow the genocide of the Jews during the Holocaust. Now I understand. It's all about financial gains. No one will speak out against such atrocities if it's against their financial interest. In today's world, no one will speak against China due to their selfish interests.
- amvalo 6y ago
  That and... the war
  - solarkraft 6y ago
    What do you mean? The potential of a war breaking out? IIRC before the war started many countries happily traded with and weren't all that critical of Germany.
- himinlomax 6y ago
  The Holocaust happened during WW2, and mostly towards the end. The biggest armies ever assembled were actually actively trying to stop the Nazis you'll remember. And while persecutions against Jews were nothing new, the nature and extent of the actual genocide was definitely not publicized. It's well documented how the Nazis scrambled to hide their deeds, however late. Note how they summarily executed rural Jewish populations in Soviet territories, but deported those in urban or Western locations to remote camps. The reason why you'd think otherwise is because of a desire to further blame the German population at large at the end of the war. Not that they didn't deserve plenty of blame and were largely complicit, but I believe it's now pretty clear Nazi leadership knew it would have been too controversial should the truth of what was going on had been widely known. To wit, right after a concentration camp was liberated, the US general in charge forced the mayor of the nearby town to visit the camp (https://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/aftermath03.html https://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberat...). He and his wife then promptly committed suicide. Hard square that with the nature of the genocide being public knowledge.
  - pasabagi 6y ago
    You should probably read the wikipedia article on this topic: there's far more evidence than I could give a concise introduction to, but the majority consensus is yes, the german people did know about the holocaust, because it was the german people (not just a secretive subset) that did it. The majority of the holocaust was carried out by ordinary german soldiers.
    - himinlomax 6y ago
      That it was carried out by "ordinary german soldiers," whatever that means, is irrelevant to the issue at hand, namely whether what was actually going on was widely known.
      - pasabagi 6y ago
        Do you have some kind of axe to grind on this topic? I just ask because, at that time, almost the entire male fighting age population were mobilized. So when it comes to the question 'is something generally known', it's obviously relevant that such a large portion of the population were actively involved in it.
        himinlomax 6y ago
        There's a difference between what people can be made to do in the heat of the action (and it's frighteningly easy given the right circumstances) and what they will consent to when their rational, moral brain is engaged. (Though according to cognitive dissonance theory, the former influences the latter.) The only axe I have to grind is that this drive to further demonize Nazism, as if it needed any outside help, is utterly counter-productive. First it prevents us from drawing actual lessons from what happened. In this case, I posit that merely hiding the most gruesome details of the Holocaust was instrumental in allowing it to happen. "I should have known, I could have known, I didn't know" Albert Speer said. It was sneered at as being self-serving, but I think it reflects an important truth: it was rather easy to have people choose to ignore what was going on. They could simply choose to believe that the Jews had gone to live on a farm or something, so to speak, and avoid thinking too much about it at a time when they had plenty of other things to worry about. Second, it gives credibility to denialists' arguments. For example, they point out that gas chambers look dodgy and extremely unsafe for operators. That's because the Final Solution was initially presented as a well orchestrated, industrial operation that would have required a larger population to have full knowledge. But the current historical consensus is that while it was indeed a massive operation, it was in fact committed with relatively limited resources using leftover supplies.
- pjc50 6y ago
  The uncomfortable truth is that the eugenics and ""race science"" used to justify the Holocaust were mainstream in a lot of the colonial West. It started with people conveniently far away: Africans and Native Americans. Genocide against them was incredibly profitable. This made the empires of Spain, Portugal, UK, Belgium, and France. The Axis countries were trying to acquire a similar empire at a later date, and therefore had to create a racial enemy out of those they wanted to conquer; Italy in Abyssinia, and Germany against the slavic peoples to the east. The Jewish people (and Romani, disabled, queer and other groups targeted) were a convenient internal enemy. Fascism relies on enemies to unify the "people" against. Allegedly Hitler said "nobody remembers the Armenians" when asked about genocide, referring to the comparatively recent event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide The Holocaust of the Jews was the point at which the horror was brought home enough that most people could recognise it as morally abhorrent, and there was enough "never again" motivation to embed human rights into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R... .
  - hrkucuk 6y ago
    Do you point out that Armenian Genocide was also an event nobody talked about while it was happening? I believe Armenian Genocide cannot be compared to what happened in Holocaust or what is happening in Xinjiang. I think you need more information on what happened during 1914–1923 in Anatolia. I suggest you to read "Dashnagtzoutiun Has Nothing To Do Anymore",The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic. You can find it in this PDF, the manifesto starts at page 29: https://ata-a.org.au/pdf/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf https://ata-a.org.au/pdf/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf
    - cafard 6y ago
      Plenty of people talked about it, but to no particular result.
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      For the record, there is a controversy about authenticity of this book. Read the Wikipedia page about Hovhannes Katchaznouni, and also its talk page.
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  Or against Rwanda. Where there was no money involved.
justusw 6y ago
I would be interested to see how much western companies are involved in providing some of the tools of oppression described here, such as facial recognition and cell phone spyware.
- ipiz0618 6y ago
  Not XinJiang, but after British and American companies refused to sell weapons to Hong Kong Police , they turned to French and Swedish companies which happily sold them whatever they wanted [1][2]. [1] - https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/06/explainer-piexon-jpx6-the-new-hi-tech-pepper-spray-tool-for-hong-kong-riot-police/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/06/explainer-piexon-jpx6-the-...
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    That article mentions a Swiss company, but I don't see any mention of Sweden. Is this a mistake of yours or am I missing something? I guess a mistake since you seem to have forgotten a link.
    - ipiz0618 6y ago
      My bad, I was looking for source of the second claim (French supplies) before getting interrupted. Now I'm unable to edit my comment. My claim that France supplied weapons to Hong Kong Police recently was not correct. The "Water Cannon" truck they use was Mercedes Benz made in France [1]. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3020397/anti-riot-vehicles-equipped-water-cannons-begin-road https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...
ipiz0618 6y ago
It's incredibly sad that this is not getting as much attention as it should. Lots of people in the world knows about them, but not many countries, even those that suffered WWII are turning a blind eye to this. XinJiang is practically a huge concentration camp, no better than the Nazi ones, and in fact might be worse. Unfortunately the only way to save these people is to defeat CCP, but most governments are too busy earning RMB. Now that the US government are taking on this issue, I hope the world follows.
biscotti 6y ago
Sorry but Islam has problematic requirements for its adherants that mean the Chinese are right. It should be regarded as a virus. It is a form of modern day slavery, and compels its followers to subjugate, convert or depose of the Kafir and terrorise their fellow Muslim to be compliant. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, but if we're cancelling links to slavery in Britain. It's time to stop being tolerant towards the intolerant and stop accepting this Abrahamic religion that hates us so if we're going to have any kind of future. The religion has caused more destruction and genocide, misery and despair than most other ideologies except communism and modern leftism. If you don't support China, you are missing the grass for the trees. They are well within their rights to remove such a malignent, subsistant and coersive demos. If you doubt me, read the history of Islam, and learn about the lot of those they will subjegate eventually after theyve slowly improved their demographic whilst the rest of us are trying to earn a living. I don't have a problem with Muslims, but I hate Islam. Hardly any mixing has occured in 60 years between them and non-muslims on my Isles, they have honor killed many that have attempted it and as an aethiest it is not acceptable how they treat apostates. If you are going to bring your American Identity Politics to my Isles (where we are not equipped to deal with them) in order to cancel my countries links to slavery, it is time to cancel the modern day slavery that this man made religion represents. Consider it justice for the over 30,000 of our girls that were raped, injected with heroin and cast aside.

44 points by dsr12 6y ago

I have always wondered how could the world allow the genocide of the Jews during the Holocaust. Now I understand. It's all about financial gains. No one will speak out against such atrocities if it's against their financial interest. In today's world, no one will speak against China due to their selfish interests.

amvalo 6y ago
That and... the war
- solarkraft 6y ago
  What do you mean? The potential of a war breaking out? IIRC before the war started many countries happily traded with and weren't all that critical of Germany.
himinlomax 6y ago
The Holocaust happened during WW2, and mostly towards the end. The biggest armies ever assembled were actually actively trying to stop the Nazis you'll remember. And while persecutions against Jews were nothing new, the nature and extent of the actual genocide was definitely not publicized. It's well documented how the Nazis scrambled to hide their deeds, however late. Note how they summarily executed rural Jewish populations in Soviet territories, but deported those in urban or Western locations to remote camps. The reason why you'd think otherwise is because of a desire to further blame the German population at large at the end of the war. Not that they didn't deserve plenty of blame and were largely complicit, but I believe it's now pretty clear Nazi leadership knew it would have been too controversial should the truth of what was going on had been widely known. To wit, right after a concentration camp was liberated, the US general in charge forced the mayor of the nearby town to visit the camp (https://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/aftermath03.html https://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberat...). He and his wife then promptly committed suicide. Hard square that with the nature of the genocide being public knowledge.
- pasabagi 6y ago
  You should probably read the wikipedia article on this topic: there's far more evidence than I could give a concise introduction to, but the majority consensus is yes, the german people did know about the holocaust, because it was the german people (not just a secretive subset) that did it. The majority of the holocaust was carried out by ordinary german soldiers.
  - himinlomax 6y ago
    That it was carried out by "ordinary german soldiers," whatever that means, is irrelevant to the issue at hand, namely whether what was actually going on was widely known.
    - pasabagi 6y ago
      Do you have some kind of axe to grind on this topic? I just ask because, at that time, almost the entire male fighting age population were mobilized. So when it comes to the question 'is something generally known', it's obviously relevant that such a large portion of the population were actively involved in it.
      - himinlomax 6y ago
        There's a difference between what people can be made to do in the heat of the action (and it's frighteningly easy given the right circumstances) and what they will consent to when their rational, moral brain is engaged. (Though according to cognitive dissonance theory, the former influences the latter.) The only axe I have to grind is that this drive to further demonize Nazism, as if it needed any outside help, is utterly counter-productive. First it prevents us from drawing actual lessons from what happened. In this case, I posit that merely hiding the most gruesome details of the Holocaust was instrumental in allowing it to happen. "I should have known, I could have known, I didn't know" Albert Speer said. It was sneered at as being self-serving, but I think it reflects an important truth: it was rather easy to have people choose to ignore what was going on. They could simply choose to believe that the Jews had gone to live on a farm or something, so to speak, and avoid thinking too much about it at a time when they had plenty of other things to worry about. Second, it gives credibility to denialists' arguments. For example, they point out that gas chambers look dodgy and extremely unsafe for operators. That's because the Final Solution was initially presented as a well orchestrated, industrial operation that would have required a larger population to have full knowledge. But the current historical consensus is that while it was indeed a massive operation, it was in fact committed with relatively limited resources using leftover supplies.
pjc50 6y ago
The uncomfortable truth is that the eugenics and ""race science"" used to justify the Holocaust were mainstream in a lot of the colonial West. It started with people conveniently far away: Africans and Native Americans. Genocide against them was incredibly profitable. This made the empires of Spain, Portugal, UK, Belgium, and France. The Axis countries were trying to acquire a similar empire at a later date, and therefore had to create a racial enemy out of those they wanted to conquer; Italy in Abyssinia, and Germany against the slavic peoples to the east. The Jewish people (and Romani, disabled, queer and other groups targeted) were a convenient internal enemy. Fascism relies on enemies to unify the "people" against. Allegedly Hitler said "nobody remembers the Armenians" when asked about genocide, referring to the comparatively recent event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide The Holocaust of the Jews was the point at which the horror was brought home enough that most people could recognise it as morally abhorrent, and there was enough "never again" motivation to embed human rights into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R... .
- hrkucuk 6y ago
  Do you point out that Armenian Genocide was also an event nobody talked about while it was happening? I believe Armenian Genocide cannot be compared to what happened in Holocaust or what is happening in Xinjiang. I think you need more information on what happened during 1914–1923 in Anatolia. I suggest you to read "Dashnagtzoutiun Has Nothing To Do Anymore",The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic. You can find it in this PDF, the manifesto starts at page 29: https://ata-a.org.au/pdf/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf https://ata-a.org.au/pdf/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf
  - cafard 6y ago
    Plenty of people talked about it, but to no particular result.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    For the record, there is a controversy about authenticity of this book. Read the Wikipedia page about Hovhannes Katchaznouni, and also its talk page.
pinkfoot 6y ago
Or against Rwanda. Where there was no money involved.

justusw 6y ago

I would be interested to see how much western companies are involved in providing some of the tools of oppression described here, such as facial recognition and cell phone spyware.

ipiz0618 6y ago
Not XinJiang, but after British and American companies refused to sell weapons to Hong Kong Police , they turned to French and Swedish companies which happily sold them whatever they wanted [1][2]. [1] - https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/06/explainer-piexon-jpx6-the-new-hi-tech-pepper-spray-tool-for-hong-kong-riot-police/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/06/explainer-piexon-jpx6-the-...
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  That article mentions a Swiss company, but I don't see any mention of Sweden. Is this a mistake of yours or am I missing something? I guess a mistake since you seem to have forgotten a link.
  - ipiz0618 6y ago
    My bad, I was looking for source of the second claim (French supplies) before getting interrupted. Now I'm unable to edit my comment. My claim that France supplied weapons to Hong Kong Police recently was not correct. The "Water Cannon" truck they use was Mercedes Benz made in France [1]. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3020397/anti-riot-vehicles-equipped-water-cannons-begin-road https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...

ipiz0618 6y ago

It's incredibly sad that this is not getting as much attention as it should. Lots of people in the world knows about them, but not many countries, even those that suffered WWII are turning a blind eye to this. XinJiang is practically a huge concentration camp, no better than the Nazi ones, and in fact might be worse. Unfortunately the only way to save these people is to defeat CCP, but most governments are too busy earning RMB. Now that the US government are taking on this issue, I hope the world follows.

biscotti 6y ago

Sorry but Islam has problematic requirements for its adherants that mean the Chinese are right. It should be regarded as a virus. It is a form of modern day slavery, and compels its followers to subjugate, convert or depose of the Kafir and terrorise their fellow Muslim to be compliant. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, but if we're cancelling links to slavery in Britain. It's time to stop being tolerant towards the intolerant and stop accepting this Abrahamic religion that hates us so if we're going to have any kind of future. The religion has caused more destruction and genocide, misery and despair than most other ideologies except communism and modern leftism. If you don't support China, you are missing the grass for the trees. They are well within their rights to remove such a malignent, subsistant and coersive demos. If you doubt me, read the history of Islam, and learn about the lot of those they will subjegate eventually after theyve slowly improved their demographic whilst the rest of us are trying to earn a living. I don't have a problem with Muslims, but I hate Islam. Hardly any mixing has occured in 60 years between them and non-muslims on my Isles, they have honor killed many that have attempted it and as an aethiest it is not acceptable how they treat apostates. If you are going to bring your American Identity Politics to my Isles (where we are not equipped to deal with them) in order to cancel my countries links to slavery, it is time to cancel the modern day slavery that this man made religion represents. Consider it justice for the over 30,000 of our girls that were raped, injected with heroin and cast aside.