21 ms·

We can no longer ignore the potential of psychedelic drugs to treat depression

nikivi 6y ago
Would be a nice world indeed if everyone tried psychedelics. Especially something like Salvia or DMT. As it wakes you up from the often 'mundane' life people are living. From personal experience it inspired me to want to explore this universe more.
- abellerose 6y ago
  An anecdotal experience shouldn't leap to a nice world indeed if everyone tried something like I did. How did it inspire you to explore this universe more is what I'm interested in. edit: whoever disagrees should explain.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Salvia seems wildly...boring. Especially the physical effects. Change my mind?
  - nikivi 6y ago
    Not sure how much you took and in what way. For me it was a complete loss of self memory (ego death) and a very bizzare experience which unlike most other psychedelics was also tactile and not that pleasant. And after few min you are back to being fully sober.
    - ShamelessC 6y ago
      Salvia was generally the most extreme hallucinations I've ever had in the most displeasing possible way. I don't recommend it to anyone.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Salvia can be one of the strongest "psychedelics" (it's not really a classic psychedelic even), and can completely replace reality with something else. Often a bizarre 2D experience where someone "becomes" the floor, or the siding of a house, or whatever. Or transported to some alternative reality completely unlike our own. It can also be extremely dysphoric and terrifying. I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I have heard that chewing it produces a less dysphoric experience than smoking it though, and is how it was used in traditional ceremonies.
    - cvshepherd 6y ago
      it's so weird that my experience of melting into the floor is nothing unusual, as i've now read a few times. it was terrifying by the way, and felt 100% real. crazy, crazy stuff.
  - WatermelonMan 6y ago
    The last time I smoked Salvia was the most intense, spiritual out-of-body experience I've ever had. While it was profound, it was also truly terrifying and did not feel good for me at all. I think salvia is very misunderstood and underestimated by most people. You give up all control when you take a serious dose, you're just along for the ride. Mushrooms feel wonderfully natural and therapeutic on the other hand.
- deepsun 6y ago
  Would NOT be a nice if everyone ended up suicidal and manic, like my best friend after one particularly bad trip. He's still on treatment and out of society, by the way, 6 years so far :(
  - o-__-o 6y ago
    It’s almost like mental health is just like our physical health. Not preparing ones self for changes or heavy lifting can cause muscle failure. Why is your brain any different? I support psychedelics but you need someone who’s borderline a psychotherapist to escort you the first time and guide you long term. Too many people just swallow a pill without thinking of side effects... Edit: Downvoted... I spent a year researching MDMA and preparing my brain for the toxic effects before taking it recreationally for the first time. Had the best ever experience and never had the ectasy hangover that’s so common with the drug.. you need to mentally prepare before doing psychoactive drugs and if you can’t you need a sitter and be ready for the possibility of a bad time.
  - TravHatesMe 6y ago
    Yep I have personally witnessed a friend lose his mind. Years later he is not back to normal. This was a man that I had once admired greatly. To see him deteriorate into a disillusioned stranger was terrifying and heart-breaking. Be careful folks! Don't play with drugs when your mind isn't in the right place or if you're currently going through something in life. Make sure you have a positive mindset, do it in a very safe environment with people that you are very comfortable with because there will likely be long periods of silence.
- aero142 6y ago
  There seems to be a large spread between how the person who used psychedelics describes their experience vs how it appears to me. It used to just be the people who were in to crystals and vibrations and other new age things, but I see it with most people who talk about the benefits of psychedelics. Very smart people claim to have learned profound things from their experiences but when they explain them, they sounds like nonsense to me. They common quality is that the experiences sound disconnected from reality. They try to explain the experience and are fully convinced they learned some fundamental truth but can't explain it in any way that makes sense. Like when you have an emotional reaction to a dream but when you explain the dream, you realize the literal description in nonsense. Perhaps disconnecting from reality a bit or internalizing a core belief that everything OK, even when it isn't, is a good thing for making you happy, but there seems to be a lot of downside in breaking critical thinking in a lot of people's heads. I used to listen to Tim Ferris and Peter Attia, and thought they were both very logical thinkers, but since they started talking up the benefits of psychedelics, I keep getting that same feeling that what they are describing sounds more like trying to levitate the pentagon to end the war.
  - MrScruff 6y ago
    I don't think the article is arguing that the specifics of what people see in an LSD or Psilocybin trip are of significance. Rather it's the shift of perspective that often results that can be of benefit. For someone with an incurable illness, the fear of death might make their final years unbearable. An experience that deemphasises the self and puts life in context (which is what some have described) seems like a valuable treatment.
  - ipnon 6y ago
    The nature of an internal psychological experience is that it is deeply personal. The best analogy I can provide for you is that of the religious conversion. A strong psychedelic experience is like Saul being called out to by Jesus from the heavens or Moses receiving the commandments from the burning bush. In a moment, an experience once thought impossible shows them they have a humble place in a bigger picture. Psychedelics are similar, for reasons not fully understood. Common experiences during psychedelic therapy include the sensation of having died or feeling the boundary between yourself and others or yourself and the world dissolve. You are correct to note that there is no evidence of either such things occurring during any psychedelic experience at any time to any person. It's the deeply personal quality of the experience that induces significant changes in behavior for the users. Another great analogy is that of new parenthood. You may just see a wailing lump of flesh, defecating and crying out for nourishment. The parents themselves often see their own reflection in an endless chain of reproduction, and feel a new responsibility having been forced to really consider their place in this ongoing process. I think you are right to be skeptical of psychedelic drugs. If you have doubts about the efficacy of the drugs as a treatment, I encourage you to skim a few of the most relevant studies. Under quantifiable circumstances, psychedelic drugs produce reliable and positive benefits to the mental health of certain types of individuals.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  My experience with psychedelics was unpleasant and gave me anxiety for months. I don't think "everyone trying them" is a good idea. They can be great for certain people in certain situations, but are not without dangers. Especially for ones as strong as salvia or DMT.
  - kevmo314 6y ago
    Yeah I would be in support of everyone trying them in a supportive setting with some professional oversight. Definitely would not recommend going it alone.
    - Trasmatta 6y ago
      Agreed, more access to psychedelics in a safe and professional setting would be really good. I wish I had had been able to do that for my experiences -- as it stands, I think they're ruined for me forever. (I'm okay with that though, one lesson I learned was that I could learn anything psychedelics could teach me using other methods.)
      - palimpsests 6y ago
        > I could learn anything psychedelics could teach me using other methods how do you know what they would have taught you? I'm sorry to hear that you had such a negative experience with these substances.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    If you don't mind I'd be interested in hearing more details. I'm personally really curious about stories like this, mostly because I have the opinion the world would be better off if more people tried lsd or something once.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I highly disagree, mostly because I've yet to see any real long-term studies that show that taking psychedelics actually benefits people long term to the point where we should make literally everyone take it. I have an illness on the psychotic spectrum that I wasn't able to get treatment or addressment for until my 20's, which is when such disorders can begin manifesting if they are to manifest. Psychotic and dissociative disorders are also a significant portion of the human population and are often neglected or straight up ignored in discussions like this.
  - banads 6y ago
    We shouldn't make literally everyone take it, that's silly. The John's Hopkins studies do show sustained long term (6-12 months) clinical improvements for about 80% of test subjects -- from a single dose. No other psychopharmaceutical drug comes close to such success, much less with a single dose.
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      Test subjects that are highly selected for to avoid the exact conditions I was describing. We need larger studies before we make such bold claims that potentially make invisible or completely overlook the variety of mental conditions that this sort of plan would expose people of. Additionally, 6 to 12 months is not nearly long enough to say that an entire population should be dosed with a drug.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - banads 6y ago
        Yes, anyone trying to push these drugs on literally everyone is a fool. The reason people with pre-existing psychosis like schizophrenia are being ruled out of such studies is because the risk is plainly obvious. That's why doctors often prescribe medicine with the caveat "do not take drug A if you have conditions XYZ"
- bananamerica 6y ago
  > Would be a nice world indeed if everyone tried psychedelics Sometimes I think grandiose statements like these are a consequence of the idea that this kind of insight is only achievable through the use of psychedelics, when in fact they’re not.
  - looper_dude 6y ago
    They are a shortcut to insights, that without, might take a person years to come upon otherwise. And that is if they are actively trying. For most people who aren't normally driven to spend a lot of time actively self-reflecting and critically observing their world with the intent on finding truth, rather than merely confirming their beliefs, psychedelics might be the only way to kickstart things. An important property of psychedelics is that they peel away the ego, which frees one to confront ideas that might normally be too uncomfortable to think about. Of course, psychedelics are not for everyone. Like, it's probably not a good idea for people with, or at risk of developing serious mental illness. And no one should ever feel pressured to take them if they feel uncomfortable about it. But the effects are long lasting-to-permanent with regard to opening one up to seeing the world in new ways, askings questions, and not taking for granted that things are as they seem. So while I agree with you that the idea that everyone should take psychedelics is grandiose, I also agree with OP's sentiment that the world would be a nicer place if more people took them. There's too many people roaming around thinking they've got it all figured out and that there's not much else to the world than what they are familiar with in their own little bubbles. Psychdelics, essentially immediately, pop your bubble and alert you to a much wider plane of existence. It's humbling, while at the same time reassuring, to truly get a sense that we are all connected. And I think it's rare for people to actually experience this without the aid of psychedelics.
    - bananamerica 6y ago
      I know plenty of close minded people that took psychedelics. I could even argue that psychedelic users tend to be more close minded than the rest of the population —- their religious devotion to these drugs is to me a great example of fundamentalism and rigidness of thought, and the notion that these drugs can be nothing but good betrays arrogance (since insight inherently positions them above the “square” masses that did not take the red pill). I don’t like when religious leaders tell me how I should experience life, and some of the rhetoric by psychedelic users is worryingly similar. I could also use philosophy to question the very nature of these insights. On what basis does one affirm psychedelic trips provides greater access to reality than regular conscious states?
- beepboopbeep 6y ago
  This isn't true and it's not ok to assume this. In general, the psychedelic community must stop overlaying their own subjective experiences on to other people. Psychedelics can help, but they can also harm. Psychedelics, like everything else in this world, are viable for some but not all. What we need is research without stigma and WoOoO to determine what is going on, why, and how we can shape that into a therapeutic regime coupled with counseling and support.
- sharadov 6y ago
  The experience is so far out of the realm of reality, that when you try to explain to a non-user it sounds like absolute mumbo-jumbo gibberish. Like Leary said "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out".
- astura 6y ago
  A single experience with psychedelics ruined my friend's life. Caused permanent psychosis, he's either dead, homeless, or in jail now, I wish I knew.
  - XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago
    Sorry to hear that. Hopefully we'll learn enough to prevent such mismatches and to freely allow petitioning wanderers to become holy fools for a brief time. Note: Done 200+ trips w/ 2 bad ones in the first 10.
- alexashka 6y ago
  You need to be very careful extrapolating your personal experiences towards the masses. Humans are a violent, vengeful, petty species. Modern society does a great job of discouraging and masking those qualities, making the youngsters of this generation feel like those qualities hardly exist! They do, and brain altering drugs might re-activate those qualities and then some, you need to be very careful.
  - XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago
    "Modern society does a great job of discouraging and masking those qualities," Until you attempt to shake another's position in a social hierarchy (wittingly or not). Violence, vengeance, and pettiness are not only driven by barbaric feelings. They're strategies! Ones that disgust my intrinsic aesthetics, and probably yours, but which nonetheless are wielded. So let the timid have their controlled experience with such things so that when the wolf "of man known as man" attempts to ambush them, they can drive it off. But since we're talking about psychedelics like LSD, awakening those qualities seems like a rare experience. I think majority experience would be a light in a tunnel that younger generations seem funneled into as everything around them is increasingly predatory ala ads, distraction, substandard diets, and probably a million other parasites. Being able to shed that for a brief bit and to not shoulder the heaviness of all your frustrations and expectations is immense.
    - alexashka 6y ago
      I don't deny the benefits of escapism and novel experiences. I'm an escapism expert myself :) I'm simply against people experimenting with substances that don't undergo any quality control and that may result in your brain being scrambled for extended periods of time afterwards. We should decriminalize drugs, research them and offer psychedelic holidays, it's a complete no-brainer, but until then, the risk/reward ratio is simply not in favor of taking the chance, not to mention all the problems of dealing with drug dealers - you don't want your source of consciousness exploration being tied to someone willingly being a criminal.
jimbob45 6y ago
Aren’t psychedelics extremely likely to cause psychosis in users?
- bzb4 6y ago
  In very much the same way currently used antidepressants can trigger schizophrenia and other related, latent disorders in users?
  - codebolt 6y ago
    Somebody can have a disposition for psychotic illness and live a whole lifetime without it manifesting. Drugs could be the trigger that destroys that person's life. Maybe these drugs should be allowed to be used in certain clinical settings, but I wish they had a better grasp on the risk factors for psychosis, so they knew who not to give it to. Certainly they should be kept illegal for recreational use, including marijuana.
    - andai 6y ago
      I'm against criminalization but I'm also against widespread recreational use until we have a technology to tell you if you have a predisposition or not. I've seen a lot of people's lives ruined by psychosis, and all but one were chronic cannabis users for 1-2 years prior. A causal relationship has been established. It gradually alters brain function over time. For some people (arguably 2%), this eventually pushes them over a threshold for psychosis. It seems there's no way of knowing in advance if you will be one of them.
      - looper_dude 6y ago
        Well, if your life is fucked up and not in a stable mindset before deciding to take them, or there's a history of mental illness in your family, those would be some red flags to seriously consider before purchasing your ticket.
        6y ago
golf3 6y ago
We can no longer ignore $my_sacred_cow
thrownaway954 6y ago
i really hope that if they are able to iron things out, that psychedelic drugs can be safely prescribed as an alternative for people with depression. NA and AA (Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous) both permit alternative forms of and narcotic medicine as long as 1) they are the only available options or last ditch effort 2) prescribed by doctor which knows your addiction history 3) you are regularly and closely monitored (by doctor and support group) even with those stipulations and checks in place, relapse is something to be concerned with. i just had a close friend relapse after 18 years cause of pain pills that were prescribed to him. in the programs defense though, he was ignoring rule #3 where he was ignoring being regularly and closely monitored by doctor and support group.
- josephpmay 6y ago
  As someone who is in MA and has a fair amount of experience with psychedelics, I don't think they are likely to trigger a relapse of other drugs. I won't say that there is never a risk of addiction to LSD or Mushrooms (I met someone yesterday who used psychedelics every week for two years), but for the vast majority of people it's an intense experience that they don't want to experience often.
  - thrownaway954 6y ago
    I would rather not take the risk of relapse.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  I know this isn't what you were saying, but, pain killers are absolutely nothing like psychedelics, for the reason the other commenter said, and many more.
  - thrownaway954 6y ago
    In the eyes of NA, a drug is a drug. if you use a drug that isn't prescribed by your doctor, it is a relapse. we can go about slicing hairs all day, but the bottom line is that using a drug without being prescribed by a doctor is considered a relapse.
tw000001 6y ago
I don't think these drugs should be scheduled but here's a perspective that you're less likely to find online: I would never put myself in a position to be indoctrinated by the modern ideologically slanted American psychological establishment while my guard is down, so to speak. These kinds of drugs also make people extremely open to suggestion. It's one reason why they are used in, say, cults. We are raised to believe in the authority of institutions and the conditioning is so powerful that when most people read any media that seems authoritative (news, books, Wikipedia, etc) unless they are specifically suspicious of the source, there is rarely an innate drive to question the content. This is especially true of how people treat advice from doctors. Now combine that with alkaloids which directly inhibit neural circuits related to suspicion and defense. You may agree with the tenets of modern western society now, but it's clear that they have a checkered history (e.g. lobotomy, forced sterilization) and no doubt we will look back on some of today's practices with the same horror (sterilization and genital mutilation for gender dysphoria, for example)... Point being, anyone undergoing such a treatment should be aware that they are effectively handing over their psyche to another human being who is inevitably influenced in some way by the zeitgeist, and it's hubris to presume that current ideas are correct simply because they are different from ideas past. This is also a potential avenue for mass government indoctrination under the guise of medical treatment. Imagine modern "humane" psychedelic reeducation camps orchestrated by your friendly authoritarian uncle sam!
- carapace 6y ago
  Americans take so many prescription drugs that they can be measured in our sewage. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jan-30-me-drugs30-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jan-30-me-drugs...
  - tw000001 6y ago
    Yes, and most of them know next to nothing about the drugs they take beyond what their doctors have told them. I've watched this blind faith harm people dear to me on multiple occasions. These are the same institutions that failed across the board in preparing for COVID. Their recommendations should be scrutinized.
rwmj 6y ago
Does anyone know how (or if) they constructed a double-blind trial? The effects of mushrooms are easy to distinguish from a placebo to say the least.
- rubber_duck 6y ago
  I mean haven't you ever had/heard about that guy who would describe what an amazing experience he had on drug X when someone gave him fake drugs. It's easy to distinguish if you tried it, otherwise autosuggestion etc. could play it's part of you actually tell the placebo group you are giving them pshychodelics (not disclosing/mentioning placebo)
- Nbox9 6y ago
  My understanding is none of this research is double-blind, and by the nature of what is studied it is impossible to conduct a double-blind study.
- jes5199 6y ago
  at least sometimes they've done blind experiments with an "active placebo" - give the subject something like Ritalin that makes you feel like you've taken a drug, but no psychedelic effect
  - tasty_freeze 6y ago
    My understanding is that niacin is often used. It is a high enough dose to cause noticeable changes and flushing, but of course isn't psychoactive.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  You can't really do a double blind trial. The therapy in question isn't replacing your prozac with magic mushrooms, it is a series of brief intense therapy sessions where the patient is given a dose and talked to while they are under the influence of the drug. It's just really obvious to everyone involved whether the patent got psilocybin, LSD, or whatever else. Double blinds would work to an extent with dosages, but still limited. You can't do a double blind study of the effects of lighting someone's hair on fire on their ability to solve math problems, that's about the realm of the situation here.
nnq 6y ago
Maybe even healthy people even should be encouraged to try psychedelics or some other potent mind altering technique at least once in their life. Maybe make it as in initiation ceremony when they reach 18 or smth. Or maybe at least for the people in leadership positions when they get there The amount of closed-mindedness, at least amongst the high-IQ and well-educated people in our society is amazing. It's sad because most truly open-minded people in our society tend to be on the lower spectrum of intelligence and accomplishment. We need something that can increase the openness psychologic train in intelligent and accomplished people, especially the ones in leadership positions, asap, if we want to fix our societies! EDIT+: Toned it down a bit, hope it's less flamebaiy. It's what I wanted to day but hopefully less inflaming.
- talentedcoin 6y ago
  Excuse me, but some of us do not want to be forced to take drugs.
  - nnq 6y ago
    You're "forced" to leave in an environment with a certain structure (architecture, infrastructure) under a certain set of laws. Adding a non-damaging, mind altering temporary experience that opens people to multiple alternative thinking perspectives instead of the single one they are stuck in would be a minor addition to their already controlled and artificial environment. Take going to primary school: sure, a minority of people are attracted on their own to rational critical learning, and would've learned on their own. But for most of us, being forced to go to school helped us immensely in our life evolution... And going to school is a much more traumatic and permanently mind altering experience than what I suggested...
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      "Adding a non-damaging, mind altering temporary experience" do you have evidence that psychedelic drugs are always non-damaging? With regards, someone who has a psychotic spectrum illness.
- 6y ago
carapace 6y ago
By all means decriminalize these drugs. It's a shame they were ever made illegal in the first place. But don't get confused about what's really going on. "Set and Setting" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting "Of course, the drug dose does not produce the transcendent experience. It merely acts as a chemical key..." — Timothy Leary (who ought to know.) These drugs are like whacking the brain upside the head chemically. For most of us that's fun, but it's a crap shoot. "Bad trips" are a thing. The possibilities for precision therapeutic techniques are in the creation of the set and setting, through structured storytelling. (Not to make it about me but I did some psychedelics back in the day and they did not cure my depression but hypnotherapy did. YMMV.)
- anythingnonidin 6y ago
  Yes, exactly. Psychedelics have been described as "nonspecific amplifiers". A hypothesis I have is that therapists, and their patients, already know many of the things that'll help make them happier - but the patient isn't doing them, because they lack the motivation, or they lack the belief that they're capable of making and sticking with those changes, so why bother trying. Doing a psychedelic trip in that therapeutic context seems to make the patient motivated to make the changes that they already logically knew would be helpful, and the trip in this context makes them believe they're capable of making and sticking with those changes - so, then they end up making those changes.
rowawey 6y ago
Definitely. I need something different because I have some sort of treatment-resistant major depression that cannot be addressed with anything but medication, regardless of life circumstances, mood, health, or exercise. Although I'm not all that keen on psychedelics and disassociatives, I've tried at least 13 antidepressants and only 1 of them has done anything. The only one that's worked has been mirtazapine* with the caveats of partial GI paralysis and major weight gain. I was on it for 9 years. I tried others as my cognitive faculties and alertness have been declining over the past 2 years. * Which is also a powerful antihistamine. I'm beginning to wonder about the medical establishment's depth of understanding and nuance on treatment of serious depression and inability to address so-called treatment-resistant depression. For example, genetics, inflammation, auto-immune issues, diet, GI flora, and other factors that don't seem to be considered clinically. And then there's psychiatry, which is one of the few "medical professions" that doesn't directly test or examine the organ or systems they claim to treat. Psychiatry in particular seems unscientific, arbitrary, and crude. I don't think there's any panacea, even shrooms, ketamine, or LSD, but the neuropharmacological field has a long way to go and depression is only going to become more commonplace.
- herman_toothrot 6y ago
  Have you tried the ketamine treatment?
- ajzinsbwbs 6y ago
  > Although I'm not all that keen on psychedelics and disassociatives, I've tried at least 13 antidepressants and only 1 of them has done anything. The only one that's worked has been mirtazapine* with the caveats of partial GI paralysis and major weight gain. I was on it for 9 years. I tried others as my cognitive faculties and alertness have been declining over the past 2 years. I’m also on mirtazapine and have been for a few years. It’s the first antidepressant I tried and the doc choose it because I also have insomnia and anxiety. It’s worked well for all three conditions so I’m happy with it. Are you saying you thought it was causing cognitive decline and that’s why you tried others? Wondering if it’s something I should look out for. I can understand the concern because diphenhydramine has been associated with dementia, and it’s an antihistamine like mirtazapine. However, I read that the anticholinergic property of diphenhydramine was thought to be implicated here, and mirtazapine is not anticholinergic. I actually used diphenhydramine nightly as a sleep aid for a few years while I was in college until a doctor told me to stop, long before I ever talked to a psychiatrist. Oops. It’s probably not a coincidence I ended up on mirtazapine.
mulderc 6y ago
I would say that I struggled with depression for a good chunk of my life. Then I tried some psychedelic drugs, very low doses in a safe environment and things changed dramatically very quickly. It is as close to night and day difference I think I have ever experienced. I still have my issues but they are much more in line with just the challenges of life as compared to before when just getting out of bed was nearly impossible.
- lowdose 6y ago
  Whats a low doses for you?
  - brootstrap 6y ago
    I am a stoner, decent weed tolerance and smoking just about daily. Took shrooms twice. one time was shwag shroomers that did nothing. Next time i ate one single shroom (not a big one either) . My buddy was there all fucked up like dude keep eating. Well i tripped balls for 6 hours including a phone call back home to my wife to get myself grounded haha.
    - andai 6y ago
      I've noticed there's a huge variation in tolerance to mushrooms, even among people who share a similar tolerance to other substances. Like an order of magnitude difference.
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        Um. You should never dose mushrooms in units of mushrooms - you must only shred all of them and then weight the same dosage.
nappy-doo 6y ago
slightly offtopic: I have struggled with anxiety. It's always been a low-level constant in my life with suicidal ideation and mild panic attacks. I have never treated it beyond irregular talk therapy and CBT. The lockdown in the US and the safety of my family has triggered me severely. I found myself unable to function, and would doom surf, opening tabs, refreshing news, watching graphs move up and to the right. No thought, just monkey level reactions. I started taking medical THC, and my life has changed for the better. I can focus. I can relax. I can live a normal life. I can approach the covid situation with thought, not gut level reaction. All of this is to say, if the article's drugs work for some, they need to be available. Legal marijuana in my state has made a huge difference in my life -- if other psychotropics or psychedelics help others, then let's get them out there.
- rv-de 6y ago
  > I found myself unable to function, and would doom surf, opening tabs, refreshing news, watching graphs move up and to the right. No thought, just monkey level reactions. Are you trying to make fun of me?
  - nappy-doo 6y ago
    No, but it's how I recognized something was wrong with me. I recognized I wasn't me. I'm not saying I need pot to be me, but I need a little help to get through this, and right now THC is helping me. I can be more patient with my family. I can let myself explore my work, and I am a little more relaxed to step back and look at my problems, and say, "I can fix these, let's start on this one." If your reply isn't a joke, maybe you need to find your outlet. It doesn't have to be what I found, maybe yours is painting models, or writing a screenplay, or playing video games. I hope you find it.
    - pureliquidhw 6y ago
      "I can fix these, let's start with this one." That's my new mantra. It sums up nicely what anxiety makes it hard to see.
    - 6y ago
caymanjim 6y ago
While it's encouraging to see a relaxation of attitudes toward drugs in general, and some degree of acceptance by medical professionals, I take exception to the idea that professional head-shrinking is required for benefit. Some people are helped by clinical psychology and psychiatry. Many people would do well to avoid all psychoactive drugs without oversight and guidance from a trained professional. But many of us have been self-medicating for decades and we're well aware of the benefit of burning a joint after work or going on a canoe trip with some mushrooms. Such an approach is still stigmatized by many mental health professionals. It takes a huge ego to think you've got a monopoly on managing my mental state for me.
- vokep 6y ago
  It seems like a stepping stone. The idea of accepting that sort of full freedom is frightening to people not familiar with it. If a someone trained to evaluate mental health can be standing by saying "yes its worked, they've benefited" then its an easier pill to swallow for people who haven't been educated out of "this is your brain on drugs!"
- phkahler 6y ago
  >> It takes a huge ego to think you've got a monopoly on managing my mental state for me. Funny because I though destruction of the ego was one of the requirements to achieve good mental health ;-) Someone described their drug experience to me and said it was very important to have their trusted friend there to help ground them as needed and guide them through it. That guy is now ready to take on that role. Apparently going it alone at first is a really bad idea. Do you need a psychologist? Doubt it. They have their own issues.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  The phrase 'get a second opinion' applies tenfold to anything mental health related. Far too many practitioners are enamored of pseudoscience, have massive biases or are just trying to coast along the easiest possible path. A good therapist can make a big difference, but I personally had to go through at least 5 before I found that one for me, and in discussions with others I've learned that my experience is not at all uncommon. Part of the problem is that by the time a lot of people break through the perceived stigma of seeking help, they're so desperate and depleted of energy that they're willing to take the first thing offered without question rather than have to run the gauntlet. For anyone in a precarious position with regard to spare time & money, I would currently recommend against seeking professional help except in outlier situations. I hope to be able to change this position in the future-- there are at least some signs of positive change (such as the increasing acceptance of psychedelics and self-treatment).
uncle_iroh 6y ago
OK cool. Michael Pollan and friends have me convinced, but where do I get psychedelics? I'm not a cool kid, don't have cool friends, and live in the midwest. I think my neighbors a few houses down sell drugs...
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I kinda get the impression this isn't a serious comment, but this is an active area of research. you're best bet might be to see if any trials are being conducted near you and try to sign up. this way you're not doing anything illegal, and they might even pay you.
  - uncle_iroh 6y ago
    Not meant to be sarcastic, just failingly self-deprecating. Thank you for the direction
    - tayo42 6y ago
      Buy them online, if you found hacker news, I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out how to do it safely Edit:forgot to mention mushroom spores are legal in most states, fun enough experiment to grow a personal dose
      - h2odragon 6y ago
        Growing mushrooms is a great variant of indoor gardening. Its worth the effort to step up to pressure canning gear but it isn't necessary for good results. Even total failures are interestingly colorful and "gee what's that" chances to meet new lifeforms.
mettamage 6y ago
In all honesty, mushrooms, weed and alcohol taught me one thing. Do I like being simply sober! I prefer my mental quickness and sharpness over anything. When I smoke weed, I lose my English (lol) and only speak Dutch. When I take shrooms, I don't even dare to get off the bed. Hell, I don't even know what a bed is! And when I'm drunk, that's just a horrible feeling, while I'm drunk. I'm actually much more fine with a hangover, since I'm already more mentally sharp then (with a huge headache). Drugs are fun to debug your brain with, but ultimately: - Sex - Exercise - Meditation - Yoga - The Wim Hof Method - Amazing food That's my favorite type of drugs. With that said, if you prefer to take drugs, by all means: go ahead ;-) Full disclaimer: weed on a very light dose (Dutch weed though) and MDMA can be exceptions to this on very rare occassions, according to some people I know. They can be relationship enhancing (friends or SO) in the right setting.
- twic 6y ago
  I've tried yoga and salvia once each, and i much preferred the salvia. Where i live, weed is usually the narcotic, body-high type that makes you sit there quietly in an anaesthetised stupor - stereotypical indica. I don't enjoy that all. But occasionally, you come across the head-high type that makes you energetic and giggly - the stereotypical sativa. That's really good fun! It's like the best parts of being drunk, without some of the downsides.
  - AlecSchueler 6y ago
    How man sessions of yoga did you try, literally just the one? The benefits of yoga really come when you practice regularly in a sustained way and you get to know the poses and can feel how your body reacts differently each time you go into them, when you learn how not to hold tension, when you learn to follow the breath and when you learn to accept and trust your body's limits and strengths. To me it's someone saying they tried therapy for one session and didn't feel any benefit!
    - kungato 6y ago
      Do you have a recommendation on how to self study yoga?
ohsonice 6y ago
I definitely think that we shouldn't be criminalizing drugs. I've had some good experiences and some bad experiences on both LSD and mushrooms and believe that they could be beneficial in medical settings under the right supervision. That being said, people are still going to have bad reactions sometimes. I would think that the benefits are better than the risks, especially compared to our current approach to medicating away depression. My current view is that I can reach similar states of joy and grounding (including oxytocin release) through meditation, yoga, exercise, play, community, etc. I have been in groups where everyone is partaking in psychedelics - I choose not to and still have wonderful experiences. I think that the drugs taught me how to get to those states but there are not the only way. The conspiracy theorist in me does not think that "the Man" wants us to be grounded and open in general, including through means of drugs.
seph-reed 6y ago
Have absolutely seen first hand the positive effects of psychedelics when done right. I've also seen/experienced the negative effects. If there's one thing I really hope this doesn't lead to is more certainty in spirituality. It's totally awesome if someone wants to follow what-if-ism ("I like to think this, but know it's wrong and will cede the point in a serious context"). If people like to put up crystals and imagine them doing things, go for it. Brains are weird and organic, there's no happiness in being purely sterile about them. Everyone believes in some fantasy narrative most of the time, doubly so when they're happy. But if we start allowing each-other to really, fully believe in these happy thoughts, we'll be setting ourselves up to be taken advantage of.
- h2odragon 6y ago
  "allowing each other"? You're free to express your doubts about my reality and my interpretation of it, but you sound close to saying "some thoughts are too dangerous to thunk," and don't we already have enough of those?
  - seph-reed 6y ago
    > but you sound close to saying "some thoughts are too dangerous to thunk," Some thoughts are too dangerous to be thunk indefinitely. Thoughts can trigger the release of chemicals in your body, essentially acting like a drug themselves. This can be highly addictive. Addiction can easily make a person cruel. Poorly thought thunks are indeed very, very dangerous (ie self inflation, blaming others for everything, believing things will fix themselves). This doesn't mean these thoughts shouldn't ever be thought, but we should never lose our way back home to reality. I've seen many a hippy who followed spirituality too far, and became so hooked on their own vibe juice that they are no longer capable of basic scientific conversations.
- palimpsests 6y ago
  "more certainty in spirituality" sounds like a contradiction in terms :) Many spiritual traditions hold the primacy of Mystery and the unknown as axiomatic. Well-facilitated psychedelic-assisted therapy naturally provides a safe space for each individual's experience of the transpersonal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology). Given that these experiences occur in reality, they are, by definition, non-dual. In other words, beyond (or before) polarized concepts like "happy" or "sad". The guide and the medicine will help people integrate these experiences back into their daily lives. What this can look like, for one, is a much greater capacity to sit with uncertainty and discomfort. If psychedelic therapy is regularly egosyntonic, that's something to track very closely and can indicate inefficacy / weakness of one or more aspects of the process (e.g. inadequate preparation, not working with a trained guide, etc).
esotericsean 6y ago
I have anxiety and used to have REALLY bad anxiety. My girlfriend at the time encouraged me to try weed because it helped her. I was incredibly nervous and after just one inhalation I had one of the worst panic attacks of my life. It was as if I had no control at all. I understand how psychedelics can help in theory, but man I'd be so freaking scared to even try them because I hate that feeling of losing control.
- colordrops 6y ago
  Avoiding addressing that feeling of losing control is analogous to an obese person afraid of exercise and diet. It will certainly help but is extremely difficult and painful to start.
- SirSavary 6y ago
  It's important to reaffirm before, during, and after the trip that you're totally "normal" and going to stay "normal". In my experience a "bad trip" is an anxiety/panic attack through the lens of whatever drug you're on. I've had success nearly 100% talking people down by engaging the panic and looking for the root cause. Most of the time it seems that people have some underlying anxiety that weed/hallucinogens bubble to the surface. They're suddenly and unexpectedly faced with a completely new manifestation of their fears. "I thought weed was supposed to be fun? What do you mean it'll force me to think about my negative mental baggage???" It can be overwhelming if someone isn't there to talk you through it and explain that it's completely normal.
- sibeliuss 6y ago
  Periodic reminder that weed and psychedelics are _very_ different things, with different effects. One can't be compared to the other, though people sometimes describe "trippy" weed experiences. Each compound produces its own effect.
  - brokenmachine 6y ago
    Of course you can compare different things to each other. That's what comparison is for.
megamix 6y ago
Religion
victoriasun 6y ago
I am a pretty experienced psychedelic user. It has been transformative in helping my mental health. I'm happy to answer any questions from people who are interested in using psychedelics to help break thru mental pain and trauma.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
loughnane 6y ago
I know that there is merit to this. Also it sometimes feels like we're living in a Brave New World prequel.
vmception 6y ago
Is anyone researching these things as a receptor cleanse? Like each receptor is like a clogged faucet blocking seratonin binding normally and the drugs either bind in its place or cause the creation of so much neurochemicals that they flush out the receptors and they functionally normally for some time.

Would be a nice world indeed if everyone tried psychedelics. Especially something like Salvia or DMT. As it wakes you up from the often 'mundane' life people are living. From personal experience it inspired me to want to explore this universe more.

abellerose 6y ago
An anecdotal experience shouldn't leap to a nice world indeed if everyone tried something like I did. How did it inspire you to explore this universe more is what I'm interested in. edit: whoever disagrees should explain.
ta17711771 6y ago
Salvia seems wildly...boring. Especially the physical effects. Change my mind?
- nikivi 6y ago
  Not sure how much you took and in what way. For me it was a complete loss of self memory (ego death) and a very bizzare experience which unlike most other psychedelics was also tactile and not that pleasant. And after few min you are back to being fully sober.
  - ShamelessC 6y ago
    Salvia was generally the most extreme hallucinations I've ever had in the most displeasing possible way. I don't recommend it to anyone.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Salvia can be one of the strongest "psychedelics" (it's not really a classic psychedelic even), and can completely replace reality with something else. Often a bizarre 2D experience where someone "becomes" the floor, or the siding of a house, or whatever. Or transported to some alternative reality completely unlike our own. It can also be extremely dysphoric and terrifying. I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I have heard that chewing it produces a less dysphoric experience than smoking it though, and is how it was used in traditional ceremonies.
  - cvshepherd 6y ago
    it's so weird that my experience of melting into the floor is nothing unusual, as i've now read a few times. it was terrifying by the way, and felt 100% real. crazy, crazy stuff.
- WatermelonMan 6y ago
  The last time I smoked Salvia was the most intense, spiritual out-of-body experience I've ever had. While it was profound, it was also truly terrifying and did not feel good for me at all. I think salvia is very misunderstood and underestimated by most people. You give up all control when you take a serious dose, you're just along for the ride. Mushrooms feel wonderfully natural and therapeutic on the other hand.
deepsun 6y ago
Would NOT be a nice if everyone ended up suicidal and manic, like my best friend after one particularly bad trip. He's still on treatment and out of society, by the way, 6 years so far :(
- o-__-o 6y ago
  It’s almost like mental health is just like our physical health. Not preparing ones self for changes or heavy lifting can cause muscle failure. Why is your brain any different? I support psychedelics but you need someone who’s borderline a psychotherapist to escort you the first time and guide you long term. Too many people just swallow a pill without thinking of side effects... Edit: Downvoted... I spent a year researching MDMA and preparing my brain for the toxic effects before taking it recreationally for the first time. Had the best ever experience and never had the ectasy hangover that’s so common with the drug.. you need to mentally prepare before doing psychoactive drugs and if you can’t you need a sitter and be ready for the possibility of a bad time.
- TravHatesMe 6y ago
  Yep I have personally witnessed a friend lose his mind. Years later he is not back to normal. This was a man that I had once admired greatly. To see him deteriorate into a disillusioned stranger was terrifying and heart-breaking. Be careful folks! Don't play with drugs when your mind isn't in the right place or if you're currently going through something in life. Make sure you have a positive mindset, do it in a very safe environment with people that you are very comfortable with because there will likely be long periods of silence.
aero142 6y ago
There seems to be a large spread between how the person who used psychedelics describes their experience vs how it appears to me. It used to just be the people who were in to crystals and vibrations and other new age things, but I see it with most people who talk about the benefits of psychedelics. Very smart people claim to have learned profound things from their experiences but when they explain them, they sounds like nonsense to me. They common quality is that the experiences sound disconnected from reality. They try to explain the experience and are fully convinced they learned some fundamental truth but can't explain it in any way that makes sense. Like when you have an emotional reaction to a dream but when you explain the dream, you realize the literal description in nonsense. Perhaps disconnecting from reality a bit or internalizing a core belief that everything OK, even when it isn't, is a good thing for making you happy, but there seems to be a lot of downside in breaking critical thinking in a lot of people's heads. I used to listen to Tim Ferris and Peter Attia, and thought they were both very logical thinkers, but since they started talking up the benefits of psychedelics, I keep getting that same feeling that what they are describing sounds more like trying to levitate the pentagon to end the war.
- MrScruff 6y ago
  I don't think the article is arguing that the specifics of what people see in an LSD or Psilocybin trip are of significance. Rather it's the shift of perspective that often results that can be of benefit. For someone with an incurable illness, the fear of death might make their final years unbearable. An experience that deemphasises the self and puts life in context (which is what some have described) seems like a valuable treatment.
- ipnon 6y ago
  The nature of an internal psychological experience is that it is deeply personal. The best analogy I can provide for you is that of the religious conversion. A strong psychedelic experience is like Saul being called out to by Jesus from the heavens or Moses receiving the commandments from the burning bush. In a moment, an experience once thought impossible shows them they have a humble place in a bigger picture. Psychedelics are similar, for reasons not fully understood. Common experiences during psychedelic therapy include the sensation of having died or feeling the boundary between yourself and others or yourself and the world dissolve. You are correct to note that there is no evidence of either such things occurring during any psychedelic experience at any time to any person. It's the deeply personal quality of the experience that induces significant changes in behavior for the users. Another great analogy is that of new parenthood. You may just see a wailing lump of flesh, defecating and crying out for nourishment. The parents themselves often see their own reflection in an endless chain of reproduction, and feel a new responsibility having been forced to really consider their place in this ongoing process. I think you are right to be skeptical of psychedelic drugs. If you have doubts about the efficacy of the drugs as a treatment, I encourage you to skim a few of the most relevant studies. Under quantifiable circumstances, psychedelic drugs produce reliable and positive benefits to the mental health of certain types of individuals.
Trasmatta 6y ago
My experience with psychedelics was unpleasant and gave me anxiety for months. I don't think "everyone trying them" is a good idea. They can be great for certain people in certain situations, but are not without dangers. Especially for ones as strong as salvia or DMT.
- kevmo314 6y ago
  Yeah I would be in support of everyone trying them in a supportive setting with some professional oversight. Definitely would not recommend going it alone.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Agreed, more access to psychedelics in a safe and professional setting would be really good. I wish I had had been able to do that for my experiences -- as it stands, I think they're ruined for me forever. (I'm okay with that though, one lesson I learned was that I could learn anything psychedelics could teach me using other methods.)
    - palimpsests 6y ago
      > I could learn anything psychedelics could teach me using other methods how do you know what they would have taught you? I'm sorry to hear that you had such a negative experience with these substances.
- tayo42 6y ago
  If you don't mind I'd be interested in hearing more details. I'm personally really curious about stories like this, mostly because I have the opinion the world would be better off if more people tried lsd or something once.
TeaDrunk 6y ago
I highly disagree, mostly because I've yet to see any real long-term studies that show that taking psychedelics actually benefits people long term to the point where we should make literally everyone take it. I have an illness on the psychotic spectrum that I wasn't able to get treatment or addressment for until my 20's, which is when such disorders can begin manifesting if they are to manifest. Psychotic and dissociative disorders are also a significant portion of the human population and are often neglected or straight up ignored in discussions like this.
- banads 6y ago
  We shouldn't make literally everyone take it, that's silly. The John's Hopkins studies do show sustained long term (6-12 months) clinical improvements for about 80% of test subjects -- from a single dose. No other psychopharmaceutical drug comes close to such success, much less with a single dose.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    Test subjects that are highly selected for to avoid the exact conditions I was describing. We need larger studies before we make such bold claims that potentially make invisible or completely overlook the variety of mental conditions that this sort of plan would expose people of. Additionally, 6 to 12 months is not nearly long enough to say that an entire population should be dosed with a drug.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - banads 6y ago
      Yes, anyone trying to push these drugs on literally everyone is a fool. The reason people with pre-existing psychosis like schizophrenia are being ruled out of such studies is because the risk is plainly obvious. That's why doctors often prescribe medicine with the caveat "do not take drug A if you have conditions XYZ"
bananamerica 6y ago
> Would be a nice world indeed if everyone tried psychedelics Sometimes I think grandiose statements like these are a consequence of the idea that this kind of insight is only achievable through the use of psychedelics, when in fact they’re not.
- looper_dude 6y ago
  They are a shortcut to insights, that without, might take a person years to come upon otherwise. And that is if they are actively trying. For most people who aren't normally driven to spend a lot of time actively self-reflecting and critically observing their world with the intent on finding truth, rather than merely confirming their beliefs, psychedelics might be the only way to kickstart things. An important property of psychedelics is that they peel away the ego, which frees one to confront ideas that might normally be too uncomfortable to think about. Of course, psychedelics are not for everyone. Like, it's probably not a good idea for people with, or at risk of developing serious mental illness. And no one should ever feel pressured to take them if they feel uncomfortable about it. But the effects are long lasting-to-permanent with regard to opening one up to seeing the world in new ways, askings questions, and not taking for granted that things are as they seem. So while I agree with you that the idea that everyone should take psychedelics is grandiose, I also agree with OP's sentiment that the world would be a nicer place if more people took them. There's too many people roaming around thinking they've got it all figured out and that there's not much else to the world than what they are familiar with in their own little bubbles. Psychdelics, essentially immediately, pop your bubble and alert you to a much wider plane of existence. It's humbling, while at the same time reassuring, to truly get a sense that we are all connected. And I think it's rare for people to actually experience this without the aid of psychedelics.
  - bananamerica 6y ago
    I know plenty of close minded people that took psychedelics. I could even argue that psychedelic users tend to be more close minded than the rest of the population —- their religious devotion to these drugs is to me a great example of fundamentalism and rigidness of thought, and the notion that these drugs can be nothing but good betrays arrogance (since insight inherently positions them above the “square” masses that did not take the red pill). I don’t like when religious leaders tell me how I should experience life, and some of the rhetoric by psychedelic users is worryingly similar. I could also use philosophy to question the very nature of these insights. On what basis does one affirm psychedelic trips provides greater access to reality than regular conscious states?
beepboopbeep 6y ago
This isn't true and it's not ok to assume this. In general, the psychedelic community must stop overlaying their own subjective experiences on to other people. Psychedelics can help, but they can also harm. Psychedelics, like everything else in this world, are viable for some but not all. What we need is research without stigma and WoOoO to determine what is going on, why, and how we can shape that into a therapeutic regime coupled with counseling and support.
sharadov 6y ago
The experience is so far out of the realm of reality, that when you try to explain to a non-user it sounds like absolute mumbo-jumbo gibberish. Like Leary said "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out".
astura 6y ago
A single experience with psychedelics ruined my friend's life. Caused permanent psychosis, he's either dead, homeless, or in jail now, I wish I knew.
- XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago
  Sorry to hear that. Hopefully we'll learn enough to prevent such mismatches and to freely allow petitioning wanderers to become holy fools for a brief time. Note: Done 200+ trips w/ 2 bad ones in the first 10.
alexashka 6y ago
You need to be very careful extrapolating your personal experiences towards the masses. Humans are a violent, vengeful, petty species. Modern society does a great job of discouraging and masking those qualities, making the youngsters of this generation feel like those qualities hardly exist! They do, and brain altering drugs might re-activate those qualities and then some, you need to be very careful.
- XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago
  "Modern society does a great job of discouraging and masking those qualities," Until you attempt to shake another's position in a social hierarchy (wittingly or not). Violence, vengeance, and pettiness are not only driven by barbaric feelings. They're strategies! Ones that disgust my intrinsic aesthetics, and probably yours, but which nonetheless are wielded. So let the timid have their controlled experience with such things so that when the wolf "of man known as man" attempts to ambush them, they can drive it off. But since we're talking about psychedelics like LSD, awakening those qualities seems like a rare experience. I think majority experience would be a light in a tunnel that younger generations seem funneled into as everything around them is increasingly predatory ala ads, distraction, substandard diets, and probably a million other parasites. Being able to shed that for a brief bit and to not shoulder the heaviness of all your frustrations and expectations is immense.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    I don't deny the benefits of escapism and novel experiences. I'm an escapism expert myself :) I'm simply against people experimenting with substances that don't undergo any quality control and that may result in your brain being scrambled for extended periods of time afterwards. We should decriminalize drugs, research them and offer psychedelic holidays, it's a complete no-brainer, but until then, the risk/reward ratio is simply not in favor of taking the chance, not to mention all the problems of dealing with drug dealers - you don't want your source of consciousness exploration being tied to someone willingly being a criminal.

jimbob45 6y ago

Aren’t psychedelics extremely likely to cause psychosis in users?

bzb4 6y ago
In very much the same way currently used antidepressants can trigger schizophrenia and other related, latent disorders in users?
- codebolt 6y ago
  Somebody can have a disposition for psychotic illness and live a whole lifetime without it manifesting. Drugs could be the trigger that destroys that person's life. Maybe these drugs should be allowed to be used in certain clinical settings, but I wish they had a better grasp on the risk factors for psychosis, so they knew who not to give it to. Certainly they should be kept illegal for recreational use, including marijuana.
  - andai 6y ago
    I'm against criminalization but I'm also against widespread recreational use until we have a technology to tell you if you have a predisposition or not. I've seen a lot of people's lives ruined by psychosis, and all but one were chronic cannabis users for 1-2 years prior. A causal relationship has been established. It gradually alters brain function over time. For some people (arguably 2%), this eventually pushes them over a threshold for psychosis. It seems there's no way of knowing in advance if you will be one of them.
    - looper_dude 6y ago
      Well, if your life is fucked up and not in a stable mindset before deciding to take them, or there's a history of mental illness in your family, those would be some red flags to seriously consider before purchasing your ticket.
      - 6y ago

golf3 6y ago

We can no longer ignore $my_sacred_cow

thrownaway954 6y ago

i really hope that if they are able to iron things out, that psychedelic drugs can be safely prescribed as an alternative for people with depression. NA and AA (Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous) both permit alternative forms of and narcotic medicine as long as 1) they are the only available options or last ditch effort 2) prescribed by doctor which knows your addiction history 3) you are regularly and closely monitored (by doctor and support group) even with those stipulations and checks in place, relapse is something to be concerned with. i just had a close friend relapse after 18 years cause of pain pills that were prescribed to him. in the programs defense though, he was ignoring rule #3 where he was ignoring being regularly and closely monitored by doctor and support group.

josephpmay 6y ago
As someone who is in MA and has a fair amount of experience with psychedelics, I don't think they are likely to trigger a relapse of other drugs. I won't say that there is never a risk of addiction to LSD or Mushrooms (I met someone yesterday who used psychedelics every week for two years), but for the vast majority of people it's an intense experience that they don't want to experience often.
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  I would rather not take the risk of relapse.
ta17711771 6y ago
I know this isn't what you were saying, but, pain killers are absolutely nothing like psychedelics, for the reason the other commenter said, and many more.
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  In the eyes of NA, a drug is a drug. if you use a drug that isn't prescribed by your doctor, it is a relapse. we can go about slicing hairs all day, but the bottom line is that using a drug without being prescribed by a doctor is considered a relapse.

tw000001 6y ago

I don't think these drugs should be scheduled but here's a perspective that you're less likely to find online: I would never put myself in a position to be indoctrinated by the modern ideologically slanted American psychological establishment while my guard is down, so to speak. These kinds of drugs also make people extremely open to suggestion. It's one reason why they are used in, say, cults. We are raised to believe in the authority of institutions and the conditioning is so powerful that when most people read any media that seems authoritative (news, books, Wikipedia, etc) unless they are specifically suspicious of the source, there is rarely an innate drive to question the content. This is especially true of how people treat advice from doctors. Now combine that with alkaloids which directly inhibit neural circuits related to suspicion and defense. You may agree with the tenets of modern western society now, but it's clear that they have a checkered history (e.g. lobotomy, forced sterilization) and no doubt we will look back on some of today's practices with the same horror (sterilization and genital mutilation for gender dysphoria, for example)... Point being, anyone undergoing such a treatment should be aware that they are effectively handing over their psyche to another human being who is inevitably influenced in some way by the zeitgeist, and it's hubris to presume that current ideas are correct simply because they are different from ideas past. This is also a potential avenue for mass government indoctrination under the guise of medical treatment. Imagine modern "humane" psychedelic reeducation camps orchestrated by your friendly authoritarian uncle sam!

carapace 6y ago
Americans take so many prescription drugs that they can be measured in our sewage. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jan-30-me-drugs30-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jan-30-me-drugs...
- tw000001 6y ago
  Yes, and most of them know next to nothing about the drugs they take beyond what their doctors have told them. I've watched this blind faith harm people dear to me on multiple occasions. These are the same institutions that failed across the board in preparing for COVID. Their recommendations should be scrutinized.

rwmj 6y ago

Does anyone know how (or if) they constructed a double-blind trial? The effects of mushrooms are easy to distinguish from a placebo to say the least.

rubber_duck 6y ago
I mean haven't you ever had/heard about that guy who would describe what an amazing experience he had on drug X when someone gave him fake drugs. It's easy to distinguish if you tried it, otherwise autosuggestion etc. could play it's part of you actually tell the placebo group you are giving them pshychodelics (not disclosing/mentioning placebo)
Nbox9 6y ago
My understanding is none of this research is double-blind, and by the nature of what is studied it is impossible to conduct a double-blind study.
jes5199 6y ago
at least sometimes they've done blind experiments with an "active placebo" - give the subject something like Ritalin that makes you feel like you've taken a drug, but no psychedelic effect
- tasty_freeze 6y ago
  My understanding is that niacin is often used. It is a high enough dose to cause noticeable changes and flushing, but of course isn't psychoactive.
colechristensen 6y ago
You can't really do a double blind trial. The therapy in question isn't replacing your prozac with magic mushrooms, it is a series of brief intense therapy sessions where the patient is given a dose and talked to while they are under the influence of the drug. It's just really obvious to everyone involved whether the patent got psilocybin, LSD, or whatever else. Double blinds would work to an extent with dosages, but still limited. You can't do a double blind study of the effects of lighting someone's hair on fire on their ability to solve math problems, that's about the realm of the situation here.

nnq 6y ago

Maybe even healthy people even should be encouraged to try psychedelics or some other potent mind altering technique at least once in their life. Maybe make it as in initiation ceremony when they reach 18 or smth. Or maybe at least for the people in leadership positions when they get there The amount of closed-mindedness, at least amongst the high-IQ and well-educated people in our society is amazing. It's sad because most truly open-minded people in our society tend to be on the lower spectrum of intelligence and accomplishment. We need something that can increase the openness psychologic train in intelligent and accomplished people, especially the ones in leadership positions, asap, if we want to fix our societies! EDIT+: Toned it down a bit, hope it's less flamebaiy. It's what I wanted to day but hopefully less inflaming.

talentedcoin 6y ago
Excuse me, but some of us do not want to be forced to take drugs.
- nnq 6y ago
  You're "forced" to leave in an environment with a certain structure (architecture, infrastructure) under a certain set of laws. Adding a non-damaging, mind altering temporary experience that opens people to multiple alternative thinking perspectives instead of the single one they are stuck in would be a minor addition to their already controlled and artificial environment. Take going to primary school: sure, a minority of people are attracted on their own to rational critical learning, and would've learned on their own. But for most of us, being forced to go to school helped us immensely in our life evolution... And going to school is a much more traumatic and permanently mind altering experience than what I suggested...
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    "Adding a non-damaging, mind altering temporary experience" do you have evidence that psychedelic drugs are always non-damaging? With regards, someone who has a psychotic spectrum illness.
6y ago

carapace 6y ago

By all means decriminalize these drugs. It's a shame they were ever made illegal in the first place. But don't get confused about what's really going on. "Set and Setting" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting "Of course, the drug dose does not produce the transcendent experience. It merely acts as a chemical key..." — Timothy Leary (who ought to know.) These drugs are like whacking the brain upside the head chemically. For most of us that's fun, but it's a crap shoot. "Bad trips" are a thing. The possibilities for precision therapeutic techniques are in the creation of the set and setting, through structured storytelling. (Not to make it about me but I did some psychedelics back in the day and they did not cure my depression but hypnotherapy did. YMMV.)

anythingnonidin 6y ago
Yes, exactly. Psychedelics have been described as "nonspecific amplifiers". A hypothesis I have is that therapists, and their patients, already know many of the things that'll help make them happier - but the patient isn't doing them, because they lack the motivation, or they lack the belief that they're capable of making and sticking with those changes, so why bother trying. Doing a psychedelic trip in that therapeutic context seems to make the patient motivated to make the changes that they already logically knew would be helpful, and the trip in this context makes them believe they're capable of making and sticking with those changes - so, then they end up making those changes.

rowawey 6y ago

Definitely. I need something different because I have some sort of treatment-resistant major depression that cannot be addressed with anything but medication, regardless of life circumstances, mood, health, or exercise. Although I'm not all that keen on psychedelics and disassociatives, I've tried at least 13 antidepressants and only 1 of them has done anything. The only one that's worked has been mirtazapine* with the caveats of partial GI paralysis and major weight gain. I was on it for 9 years. I tried others as my cognitive faculties and alertness have been declining over the past 2 years. * Which is also a powerful antihistamine. I'm beginning to wonder about the medical establishment's depth of understanding and nuance on treatment of serious depression and inability to address so-called treatment-resistant depression. For example, genetics, inflammation, auto-immune issues, diet, GI flora, and other factors that don't seem to be considered clinically. And then there's psychiatry, which is one of the few "medical professions" that doesn't directly test or examine the organ or systems they claim to treat. Psychiatry in particular seems unscientific, arbitrary, and crude. I don't think there's any panacea, even shrooms, ketamine, or LSD, but the neuropharmacological field has a long way to go and depression is only going to become more commonplace.

herman_toothrot 6y ago
Have you tried the ketamine treatment?
ajzinsbwbs 6y ago
> Although I'm not all that keen on psychedelics and disassociatives, I've tried at least 13 antidepressants and only 1 of them has done anything. The only one that's worked has been mirtazapine* with the caveats of partial GI paralysis and major weight gain. I was on it for 9 years. I tried others as my cognitive faculties and alertness have been declining over the past 2 years. I’m also on mirtazapine and have been for a few years. It’s the first antidepressant I tried and the doc choose it because I also have insomnia and anxiety. It’s worked well for all three conditions so I’m happy with it. Are you saying you thought it was causing cognitive decline and that’s why you tried others? Wondering if it’s something I should look out for. I can understand the concern because diphenhydramine has been associated with dementia, and it’s an antihistamine like mirtazapine. However, I read that the anticholinergic property of diphenhydramine was thought to be implicated here, and mirtazapine is not anticholinergic. I actually used diphenhydramine nightly as a sleep aid for a few years while I was in college until a doctor told me to stop, long before I ever talked to a psychiatrist. Oops. It’s probably not a coincidence I ended up on mirtazapine.

mulderc 6y ago

I would say that I struggled with depression for a good chunk of my life. Then I tried some psychedelic drugs, very low doses in a safe environment and things changed dramatically very quickly. It is as close to night and day difference I think I have ever experienced. I still have my issues but they are much more in line with just the challenges of life as compared to before when just getting out of bed was nearly impossible.

lowdose 6y ago
Whats a low doses for you?
- brootstrap 6y ago
  I am a stoner, decent weed tolerance and smoking just about daily. Took shrooms twice. one time was shwag shroomers that did nothing. Next time i ate one single shroom (not a big one either) . My buddy was there all fucked up like dude keep eating. Well i tripped balls for 6 hours including a phone call back home to my wife to get myself grounded haha.
  - andai 6y ago
    I've noticed there's a huge variation in tolerance to mushrooms, even among people who share a similar tolerance to other substances. Like an order of magnitude difference.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      Um. You should never dose mushrooms in units of mushrooms - you must only shred all of them and then weight the same dosage.

nappy-doo 6y ago

slightly offtopic: I have struggled with anxiety. It's always been a low-level constant in my life with suicidal ideation and mild panic attacks. I have never treated it beyond irregular talk therapy and CBT. The lockdown in the US and the safety of my family has triggered me severely. I found myself unable to function, and would doom surf, opening tabs, refreshing news, watching graphs move up and to the right. No thought, just monkey level reactions. I started taking medical THC, and my life has changed for the better. I can focus. I can relax. I can live a normal life. I can approach the covid situation with thought, not gut level reaction. All of this is to say, if the article's drugs work for some, they need to be available. Legal marijuana in my state has made a huge difference in my life -- if other psychotropics or psychedelics help others, then let's get them out there.

rv-de 6y ago
> I found myself unable to function, and would doom surf, opening tabs, refreshing news, watching graphs move up and to the right. No thought, just monkey level reactions. Are you trying to make fun of me?
- nappy-doo 6y ago
  No, but it's how I recognized something was wrong with me. I recognized I wasn't me. I'm not saying I need pot to be me, but I need a little help to get through this, and right now THC is helping me. I can be more patient with my family. I can let myself explore my work, and I am a little more relaxed to step back and look at my problems, and say, "I can fix these, let's start on this one." If your reply isn't a joke, maybe you need to find your outlet. It doesn't have to be what I found, maybe yours is painting models, or writing a screenplay, or playing video games. I hope you find it.
  - pureliquidhw 6y ago
    "I can fix these, let's start with this one." That's my new mantra. It sums up nicely what anxiety makes it hard to see.
  - 6y ago

caymanjim 6y ago

While it's encouraging to see a relaxation of attitudes toward drugs in general, and some degree of acceptance by medical professionals, I take exception to the idea that professional head-shrinking is required for benefit. Some people are helped by clinical psychology and psychiatry. Many people would do well to avoid all psychoactive drugs without oversight and guidance from a trained professional. But many of us have been self-medicating for decades and we're well aware of the benefit of burning a joint after work or going on a canoe trip with some mushrooms. Such an approach is still stigmatized by many mental health professionals. It takes a huge ego to think you've got a monopoly on managing my mental state for me.

vokep 6y ago
It seems like a stepping stone. The idea of accepting that sort of full freedom is frightening to people not familiar with it. If a someone trained to evaluate mental health can be standing by saying "yes its worked, they've benefited" then its an easier pill to swallow for people who haven't been educated out of "this is your brain on drugs!"
phkahler 6y ago
>> It takes a huge ego to think you've got a monopoly on managing my mental state for me. Funny because I though destruction of the ego was one of the requirements to achieve good mental health ;-) Someone described their drug experience to me and said it was very important to have their trusted friend there to help ground them as needed and guide them through it. That guy is now ready to take on that role. Apparently going it alone at first is a really bad idea. Do you need a psychologist? Doubt it. They have their own issues.
slfnflctd 6y ago
The phrase 'get a second opinion' applies tenfold to anything mental health related. Far too many practitioners are enamored of pseudoscience, have massive biases or are just trying to coast along the easiest possible path. A good therapist can make a big difference, but I personally had to go through at least 5 before I found that one for me, and in discussions with others I've learned that my experience is not at all uncommon. Part of the problem is that by the time a lot of people break through the perceived stigma of seeking help, they're so desperate and depleted of energy that they're willing to take the first thing offered without question rather than have to run the gauntlet. For anyone in a precarious position with regard to spare time & money, I would currently recommend against seeking professional help except in outlier situations. I hope to be able to change this position in the future-- there are at least some signs of positive change (such as the increasing acceptance of psychedelics and self-treatment).

uncle_iroh 6y ago

OK cool. Michael Pollan and friends have me convinced, but where do I get psychedelics? I'm not a cool kid, don't have cool friends, and live in the midwest. I think my neighbors a few houses down sell drugs...

leetcrew 6y ago
I kinda get the impression this isn't a serious comment, but this is an active area of research. you're best bet might be to see if any trials are being conducted near you and try to sign up. this way you're not doing anything illegal, and they might even pay you.
- uncle_iroh 6y ago
  Not meant to be sarcastic, just failingly self-deprecating. Thank you for the direction
  - tayo42 6y ago
    Buy them online, if you found hacker news, I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out how to do it safely Edit:forgot to mention mushroom spores are legal in most states, fun enough experiment to grow a personal dose
    - h2odragon 6y ago
      Growing mushrooms is a great variant of indoor gardening. Its worth the effort to step up to pressure canning gear but it isn't necessary for good results. Even total failures are interestingly colorful and "gee what's that" chances to meet new lifeforms.

mettamage 6y ago

In all honesty, mushrooms, weed and alcohol taught me one thing. Do I like being simply sober! I prefer my mental quickness and sharpness over anything. When I smoke weed, I lose my English (lol) and only speak Dutch. When I take shrooms, I don't even dare to get off the bed. Hell, I don't even know what a bed is! And when I'm drunk, that's just a horrible feeling, while I'm drunk. I'm actually much more fine with a hangover, since I'm already more mentally sharp then (with a huge headache). Drugs are fun to debug your brain with, but ultimately: - Sex - Exercise - Meditation - Yoga - The Wim Hof Method - Amazing food That's my favorite type of drugs. With that said, if you prefer to take drugs, by all means: go ahead ;-) Full disclaimer: weed on a very light dose (Dutch weed though) and MDMA can be exceptions to this on very rare occassions, according to some people I know. They can be relationship enhancing (friends or SO) in the right setting.

twic 6y ago
I've tried yoga and salvia once each, and i much preferred the salvia. Where i live, weed is usually the narcotic, body-high type that makes you sit there quietly in an anaesthetised stupor - stereotypical indica. I don't enjoy that all. But occasionally, you come across the head-high type that makes you energetic and giggly - the stereotypical sativa. That's really good fun! It's like the best parts of being drunk, without some of the downsides.
- AlecSchueler 6y ago
  How man sessions of yoga did you try, literally just the one? The benefits of yoga really come when you practice regularly in a sustained way and you get to know the poses and can feel how your body reacts differently each time you go into them, when you learn how not to hold tension, when you learn to follow the breath and when you learn to accept and trust your body's limits and strengths. To me it's someone saying they tried therapy for one session and didn't feel any benefit!
  - kungato 6y ago
    Do you have a recommendation on how to self study yoga?

ohsonice 6y ago

I definitely think that we shouldn't be criminalizing drugs. I've had some good experiences and some bad experiences on both LSD and mushrooms and believe that they could be beneficial in medical settings under the right supervision. That being said, people are still going to have bad reactions sometimes. I would think that the benefits are better than the risks, especially compared to our current approach to medicating away depression. My current view is that I can reach similar states of joy and grounding (including oxytocin release) through meditation, yoga, exercise, play, community, etc. I have been in groups where everyone is partaking in psychedelics - I choose not to and still have wonderful experiences. I think that the drugs taught me how to get to those states but there are not the only way. The conspiracy theorist in me does not think that "the Man" wants us to be grounded and open in general, including through means of drugs.

seph-reed 6y ago

Have absolutely seen first hand the positive effects of psychedelics when done right. I've also seen/experienced the negative effects. If there's one thing I really hope this doesn't lead to is more certainty in spirituality. It's totally awesome if someone wants to follow what-if-ism ("I like to think this, but know it's wrong and will cede the point in a serious context"). If people like to put up crystals and imagine them doing things, go for it. Brains are weird and organic, there's no happiness in being purely sterile about them. Everyone believes in some fantasy narrative most of the time, doubly so when they're happy. But if we start allowing each-other to really, fully believe in these happy thoughts, we'll be setting ourselves up to be taken advantage of.

h2odragon 6y ago
"allowing each other"? You're free to express your doubts about my reality and my interpretation of it, but you sound close to saying "some thoughts are too dangerous to thunk," and don't we already have enough of those?
- seph-reed 6y ago
  > but you sound close to saying "some thoughts are too dangerous to thunk," Some thoughts are too dangerous to be thunk indefinitely. Thoughts can trigger the release of chemicals in your body, essentially acting like a drug themselves. This can be highly addictive. Addiction can easily make a person cruel. Poorly thought thunks are indeed very, very dangerous (ie self inflation, blaming others for everything, believing things will fix themselves). This doesn't mean these thoughts shouldn't ever be thought, but we should never lose our way back home to reality. I've seen many a hippy who followed spirituality too far, and became so hooked on their own vibe juice that they are no longer capable of basic scientific conversations.
palimpsests 6y ago
"more certainty in spirituality" sounds like a contradiction in terms :) Many spiritual traditions hold the primacy of Mystery and the unknown as axiomatic. Well-facilitated psychedelic-assisted therapy naturally provides a safe space for each individual's experience of the transpersonal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology). Given that these experiences occur in reality, they are, by definition, non-dual. In other words, beyond (or before) polarized concepts like "happy" or "sad". The guide and the medicine will help people integrate these experiences back into their daily lives. What this can look like, for one, is a much greater capacity to sit with uncertainty and discomfort. If psychedelic therapy is regularly egosyntonic, that's something to track very closely and can indicate inefficacy / weakness of one or more aspects of the process (e.g. inadequate preparation, not working with a trained guide, etc).

esotericsean 6y ago

I have anxiety and used to have REALLY bad anxiety. My girlfriend at the time encouraged me to try weed because it helped her. I was incredibly nervous and after just one inhalation I had one of the worst panic attacks of my life. It was as if I had no control at all. I understand how psychedelics can help in theory, but man I'd be so freaking scared to even try them because I hate that feeling of losing control.

colordrops 6y ago
Avoiding addressing that feeling of losing control is analogous to an obese person afraid of exercise and diet. It will certainly help but is extremely difficult and painful to start.
SirSavary 6y ago
It's important to reaffirm before, during, and after the trip that you're totally "normal" and going to stay "normal". In my experience a "bad trip" is an anxiety/panic attack through the lens of whatever drug you're on. I've had success nearly 100% talking people down by engaging the panic and looking for the root cause. Most of the time it seems that people have some underlying anxiety that weed/hallucinogens bubble to the surface. They're suddenly and unexpectedly faced with a completely new manifestation of their fears. "I thought weed was supposed to be fun? What do you mean it'll force me to think about my negative mental baggage???" It can be overwhelming if someone isn't there to talk you through it and explain that it's completely normal.
sibeliuss 6y ago
Periodic reminder that weed and psychedelics are _very_ different things, with different effects. One can't be compared to the other, though people sometimes describe "trippy" weed experiences. Each compound produces its own effect.
- brokenmachine 6y ago
  Of course you can compare different things to each other. That's what comparison is for.

megamix 6y ago

Religion

victoriasun 6y ago

I am a pretty experienced psychedelic user. It has been transformative in helping my mental health. I'm happy to answer any questions from people who are interested in using psychedelics to help break thru mental pain and trauma.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

loughnane 6y ago

I know that there is merit to this. Also it sometimes feels like we're living in a Brave New World prequel.

vmception 6y ago

Is anyone researching these things as a receptor cleanse? Like each receptor is like a clogged faucet blocking seratonin binding normally and the drugs either bind in its place or cause the creation of so much neurochemicals that they flush out the receptors and they functionally normally for some time.