10 ms·
Maillard reaction
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- asguy 6y agoNice. More science/engineering-minded cooks should learn about this. A close second is the Leidenfrost effect[1]; it's the secret to cooking eggs properly without non-stick. Your omelettes will float on a bed of steam. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect
- lukevp 6y agoIf you use a carbon steel pan and season it properly, it’s just as nonstick as a nonstick pan. We don’t use Teflon or any other coated pans because we have birds and it can be lethal for them if a pan is overheated. 379+ degrees sounds way too hot to cook eggs, especially scrambled or omelette.
- korethr 6y agoI've heard this assertion before, that a cast-iron or carbon-steel pan can be made just as non-stick as a teflon pan with a proper seasoning. I disagree, based on my own experience. I have some cast iron pans that I took the care to clean an polish smooth, and season well, and they are seasoned better than most other cast iron or steel skillets I've seen in other people's kitchens. It's smooth enough to cook eggs on, _if_ I use sufficient cooking fat. And even then, even my cheap teflon-coated pans are smoother, and can get away with using less cooking fat. Yes, a steel or iron pan, well-seasoned, can be used for several tasks that someone might think would require a teflon pan. But even then, there are some things that are just plain easier on a teflon pan than they are on well-seasoned iron or steel.
- mikeyouse 6y agoYeah this is my experience too - My carbon steel pan is fine for cooking eggs if I put a dollop of butter in there - my nonstick pan is fine even without the butter. I love the carbon steel for like 90% of my cooking, but if I'm just making an egg or two the teflon is unbeatable.
- lukevp 6y agoDo you honestly cook eggs without butter or at least some type of fat? My carbon steel will stick certain things if I throw them in when the pan’s not fully heated and completely dry, so I concede that point to you. I don’t cook like this though and It’s not really a recommended cooking style in general to start with a cold pan and no fat. Woks are carbon steel and have eggs cooked on them all the time commercially for fried rice and such.
- mikeyouse 6y agoNah I always have fat in the pan regardless, but it's more that there will occasionally be something that causes egg to stick to the carbon pan which requires a whole process to clean / reseason or whatever when I can just use the teflon without a care in the world and save the carbon for steaks or veggies.
- steef 6y agoI used to really like Teflon, but then I watched a lil documentary on the problems that come from manufacturing the coating. DuPont and 3M poisoned nearly the whole planet. “The Devil We Know” is the title. They just swept the problems under the rug, switched to different chemicals when shit hit the fan, but those chemicals carry the same dangers. It ain’t just the birds in the house that take a hit. It’s in you forever.
- lukevp 6y agoCarbon steel is stamped, cast iron is cast. Back in the day they used to polish them completely smooth but don’t anymore due to the labor involved. I used to use a seasoned cast iron pan and the carbon steel is massively more nonstick.
- asguy 6y ago> 379+ degrees sounds way too hot to cook eggs, especially scrambled or omelette. It's not. I started trusting in my pans, lifting them off the burner as necessary for heat management, and properly distributing the egg curds with a fork as they form. It's a whole new game.
- lukevp 6y agoButter starts browning at 266. Most oil smoke points are below 375. You are heating your pan to the point your fats are blackening to cook eggs? Cooks illustrated even refers to 250 as an acceptable temp for omelette and 350 as “egg toughening”. https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5454-preheat-your-omelet-pan-slowly https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5454-preheat-your-o...
- asguy 6y agoThere's more to the Leidenfrost Effect's impact on the cooking eggs than just the temperature. For the TL;DR version, watch the Myth Buster's take[1] on how you can put your hand into molten lead and not get burned. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTOCAd2QhGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTOCAd2QhGg
- elil17 6y agoThe whole point of the effect is that, while the pan reaches such a high temperature, the egg does not because it is insulated by a layer of steam.
- Xcelerate 6y ago380 F is way too hot for cooking eggs. I have a Control Freak induction cooktop that directly measures the temperature of the pan, and 380 F is closer to searing than it is to cooking eggs. They would burn almost immediately.
- asguy 6y agoRead the WikiPedia article I linked, or watch the MythBuster's video I posted below... the water in the eggs turns instantly to steam and causes them to be buffered from the pan. It's not magic; I use this technique when making omelettes and scrambling, but not when I'm frying eggs.
- rstupek 6y agoJust bought a carbon steel frying pan (remarkably inexpensive too) and curiously have the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect happen when dropping some water to see if it was hot enough. Had no idea what that effect was until I read this thread! Weird how that happens sometimes
- mrestko 6y agoNo one cooks omelettes like that. Where are you getting that from? If you actually tried this you would end up with burned, acrid eggs.
- asguy 6y agoThis is how I cook them. It's pretty common knowledge for professional cooks[1], they just don't realize what it's called. [1] https://youtu.be/CB-SCA1reqE?t=58 https://youtu.be/CB-SCA1reqE?t=58
- NikolaeVarius 6y agoThat video only references it as a way of verifying temperature, not a cooking technique. I don't understand the claim that cooks wouldn't know what this would be called.
- asguy 6y agoShe says "the proper temperature",.. and then starts cooking with the pan. Thus implying that the pan should be that hot to use it, for cooking.
- NikolaeVarius 6y agoYour claim was > Your omelettes will float on a bed of steam. Due to the effect. Not that the effect can be used to judge hotness of the pan.
- elil17 6y agoI cook omelettes like that. I learned the technique from a friend who was a line cook at some fancy French restaurant. It works well as long as you have a very thin layer of eggs. Instead of butter, you brush a little bit of high smoke-point oil onto the pan (and mix a dash of heavy cream into the omelette batter to make up for the lost butter flavor). The eggs don't burn because they are insulated by a layer of steam. It doesn't work for thick, American diner-style omelettes. The technique is useful because it lets you cook French-style (creamy, wet-in-the-center, made with about 100 ml of omelette batter for a 10-inch skillet) omelettes really quickly. Whereas the cooking time for a French-style omelette is typically five minutes, with this technique it is perhaps seven seconds.
- sevencolors 6y agoDeeper dive on Serious Eats: https://www.seriouseats.com/2017/04/what-is-maillard-reaction-cooking-science.html https://www.seriouseats.com/2017/04/what-is-maillard-reactio...
- dang 6y agoMaybe we'll change to that from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction. Thanks! There's also https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/ https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/, via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562312
- antonf 6y agoI really like The Food Lab book by one of Serious Eats authors, Kenji López-Alt. It helped me to understand the purpose of different steps in recipes and what is important about them. For example when recipe asked me to saute something for X minutes until brown fond forms on the bottom of pan, I usually continued after X minutes even if brown fond didn't form. It turned out what the recipe actually asked is to create products of Maillard reaction, and it was crucial for taste of final product while amount of minutes it would take can vary depending on type of burner, pan, frequency of stirring, etc...
- sevencolors 6y agoThat book and Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat by Samin Nosrat are my go to when i want to understand why something works :)
- wolfi1 6y agomy favorite trick regarding the Maillard reaction: use baking soda to speed it up [1] [1]https://blog.khymos.org/2012/06/04/maximizing-food-flavor-by-speeding-up-the-maillard-reaction/ https://blog.khymos.org/2012/06/04/maximizing-food-flavor-by...
- ryandamm 6y agoThat's especially effective in a pressure cooker, where the elevated pressure and increased temperature allows the Maillard reaction to proceed in water phase. But be careful; I've noticed that if you use too much baking soda, you can get odd flavors — like squash tasting like pretzels.
- ReptileMan 6y agoWell - high temperatures, alkaline reagents and fats - this seems like a good way to get tiny amounts of something soap like. But your sauce will be emulsified to perfection.
- vosper 6y agoYou can also bake baking soda to make it extra alkaline. It makes a big difference for pretzels. There's not a huge difference between baked baking soda and the traditional lye, IME.
- anfractuosity 6y agoThat's interesting re pretzels, not heard that before :) Do you have a recipe you follow?
- jihadjihad 6y agoThis article is a good overview of the science, and includes a recipe: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/dining/15curious.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/dining/15curious.html
- stimpson_j_cat 6y agoWhy is this on Hacker News? It's a great reaction and all, but I come here for news.
- dEnigma 6y agoJust to give some context to why you're being downvoted, read the first paragraph of the "Hacker News Guidelines", titled "What to Submit" https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- stimpson_j_cat 6y ago> anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity Wow, inCREDibly vague. I thought this was a news site, thank you for clarifying.
- dang 6y agoHN is for anything that gratifies intellectual curiosity. Sometimes that's news in the common sense of the word, but often it's more obscure things, and those are welcome here. I think of the "new" in the "news" in "hacker news" as being like the used clothing store in my home town that used to be called "New 2 You". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- stimpson_j_cat 6y agoOh, I thought of it as "news" and was confused
- rezmason 6y agoQuacking is a mallard reaction.
- joyj2nd 6y ago"The Maillard reaction is complex. So complex, in fact, that it's only in the last few years that scientists have begun to figure out what it actually is. While they still don't entirely understand it, they do know the basics" Well, the Maillard reaction is actually well understood. There is also early and late Maillard reaction products and not all products are necessary good for you. "The Maillard reaction is many small, simultaneous chemical reactions that occur when proteins and sugars in and on your food are transformed by heat, producing new flavors, aromas, and colors." ...when proteins and REDUCING sugars... Fixed that for you. Maillard reaction also occurs in your eye, what is a bad thing in the long run...
- grok22 6y agoThe author does mention reducing sugars later on: "Instead, these proteins require "reducing sugars," which are essentially simple sugars that attract amino acids at certain moisture and temperature levels."
- anfractuosity 6y agoThe maillard reaction is important in brewing too - https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/AVLhhy07n5/ https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/AVLhhy07n5/ And not just in the malting/kilning process, but during decoction mashes and boiling too. https://www.brewersjournal.ca/2017/05/18/science-malliard-reaction/ https://www.brewersjournal.ca/2017/05/18/science-malliard-re... is interesting regarding this.
- deeg 6y agoMy first introduction to the Maillard reaction was in "Cooking For Geeks", which turned me on to cooking. It was no longer (just) a chore but a science/chemistry experiment that ended up being tasty! I'm including the link here because maybe it'll do the same for others. https://www.cookingforgeeks.com/ https://www.cookingforgeeks.com/ (I am in no way associated with the book or author; just a fan.)
- jpp 6y agoThanks for the kind words! (I’m the author and also daily reader of Hacker News, but generally just lurk.) Happy to answer any questions; email is generally best.
- julesallen 6y agoNice work, Jeff. The chapter on eggs was literally a life changer. Or a breakfast changer for sure.
- marakv2 6y agoAs a chef and a geek I've been asked about your book by non chefs! Sadly I haven't read it yet, but I saw your link had the first two chapters for free so I'll give them a look tonight :-)
- ogre_codes 6y agoAnyone who cooks Sous Vide knows the value of the Maillard reaction. You can cook perfectly rare meat in the water bath, but the taste is mediocre. Hit that steak with a torch, broil it briefly, or drop it on a piping hot cast iron skillet and it turns into magic. We just did some ribs last night for about 90 minutes in the sous vide and 4 minutes each side on the broiler and they were amazing.
- dstaley 6y agoHave you done your steaks in the broiler? I usually use a torch since I find that in order to get the sear I want, I have to leave them in the broiler too long. I usually cook the steaks to 129 F, but I guess I could drop down to 122 F or something.
- ogre_codes 6y agoFor steaks I heat my cast iron up and drop it on the skillet, just a few seconds each side. I use the broiler for odd shaped stuff like ribs. I know a lot of people use a torch, but personally I like the skillet. Seems less fiddly and generally faster for a steak. Maybe I’m just paranoid and missing out on some flavor but I don’t cook anything other than fish below 135F to kill any bacteria. https://www.amazingfoodmadeeasy.com/info/sous-vide-safety/more/sous-vide-safety-salmonella-and-bacteria https://www.amazingfoodmadeeasy.com/info/sous-vide-safety/mo... (Update) I’ve seen other reliable sources suggest 130F for 2+ hours is safe.
- dstaley 6y agoMy main gripe with the cast iron is that it generates so much smoke (even with fancier oils like grapeseed) that I get a pretty bad headache. I guess my ventilation is just not up to par. I've been eyeing a portable induction cooktop to use outside, but my boyfriend just wants me to get a grill.
- ogre_codes 6y agoYeah, I think my preference to the cast iron is mostly that the torch seems so fiddly and slower, otherwise it works just fine.
- aabeshou 6y agothis article was terribly written. totally meandering, unorganized, rambling. I was desperately curious to understand it but it barely explained anything and went around in circles, with gratuitous jokes that just served to further delay the info.
- dang 6y agoIs https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/ https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/ better?
- aabeshou 6y agothanks, that was interesting. i'm still curious about why maillard reacted food is more nutritious/bioavailable, that article didn't seem to address that. the OP may have but i got exhausted scrolling
- sebastialonso 6y agoThe author successfully turned the Maillard reaction into a buzzword: long article without a clear explanation into what it does,saying the same thing over and over. This was a waste of time.
- airstrike 6y agoAKA how to make your food taste great and get cancer in one fell swoop
- ars 6y agoYou are speaking of Acrylamide, it's unclear (from reading Wikipedia) if it's actually a danger or not.
- gelstudios 6y agoIf there any fans of black garlic on HN, the Maillard reaction is responsible for turning the sugars in garlic into that wonderful substance.
- jeffrallen 6y agoGBD, baby. Golden, brown, and delicious.
- karaterobot 6y agoEvery time a cooking video mentions the Maillard reaction, mise en place, fond, or setting aside some of the starchy pasta liquid, take a drink.
- jonmagic 6y agoSear in the rear (edited link) https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-cooking-science/cooking-temps-when-cook-hot-fast-when-cook-low-slow https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-cook...