5 ms·

i’m 25 and this whole covid debacle and seeing how public health officials handle it has soured me on all “experts” for the rest of my life. no wonder people d

i’m 25 and this whole covid debacle and seeing how public health officials handle it has soured me on all “experts” for the rest of my life. no wonder people don’t believe in global warming, these “experts” prioritize politics over everything

shibeouya 6y ago
Wholeheartedly agree. I'm in my 30's with scientific education, but I will never take an "expert" opinion seriously after this. Very sad to see science shoot itself in the foot in the name of dubious politics.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  I’m too familiar with university advancement policies to not be skeptical of the actual expertise of the “experts”.
natalyarostova 6y ago
Just learn to think for yourself by reading the classics and fundamentals. Read Karl Popper, study stats, read blogs like Andrew Gelman’s.
chasd00 6y ago
I got very skeptical reading the reaction to the antibody studies here. Also, the total hate for Sweden really depressed me. I've always held this place in high regard but I suppose it's still just more of the same.
- sjg007 6y ago
  The prevalence is too low for the antibody tests to be reliable. Every public health expert has reported that but people refuse to listen. Sweden has admitted their strategy is not working.
  - alkibiades 6y ago
    i don’t think we’ll know what worked or didn’t for years from now. regardless of what even they say. it could be we just delayed deaths that will happen eventually anyway while commuting economic seppuku
    - hef19898 6y ago
      One ting everybod gnores right now regardign experts is, that this a novel virus. We don't have any prior exerience or knowledge about it. Wich means incomplete data and potentially wrong data from day one. Making decissions in such cirumstances is incredibly difficult, and I expect every expert to change his mind when the data changes. Does that potential confuse people? Yes. Are experts always right? No. Are they still the best resource we have? Yes.
      - alkibiades 6y ago
        i’m talking about things like them lying saying masks don’t work because they didn’t have enough. the who took until june to admit they work and now this whole thing about staying silent about the race riots because they support them even though they’re likely to cause a second wave
  - irq11 6y ago
    They have done nothing of the sort. Tegnell was quoted as saying he would do some things differently, but was explicit that avoiding lockdowns was not something he would change. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-sweden-tegnell/sweden-should-have-done-more-against-coronavirus-but-broad-strategy-right-chief-epidemiologist-idUKKBN23A15B https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-sweden-... Sweden is mid-pack amongst european nations for death rate due to covid, and notably lower than the UK, Italy and France: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
  - lenkite 6y ago
    "Sweden has admitted their strategy is not working." No they did not say that. I suggest taking MSM news with a great pinch of salt.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  I mean, Sweden is fairing badly next to their neighbors, and horrendously compared to countries like Taiwan and South Korea (who also didn’t have lockdowns). I don’t think people hate the country so much as they’re assessing the relative failure of their approach.
  - 1bc29b36f623ba8 6y ago
    Sweden failed to protect their own elderly, mainly because national authorities simply assumed that local authorities were ready to fight a pandemic, when they were in fact hopelessly underfunded and staffed by underpaid staff with no PPE and who were expected to do stay at home on their own initiative and without payment if they got sick. The same happened in a few places here in Finland, and I am quite certain that if we'd let COVID-19 through retirement homes the way our dear neighbors did, we'd have a much higher death-rate. The actual Swedish stragegy, i.e. a soft lock-down with strong recommendations and only minor restrictions in travelling and gatherings, could actually have worked. Unfortunately, we'll never know as they screwed the retirement home situation up as bad as they did.
    - gizmo 6y ago
      Sweden did screw up the retirement home situation somewhat, but in terms of excess deaths all Nordic countries look identical. Finland, notably, doesn't even count covid deaths outside hospitals according to the THL, so comparing Swedish and Finnish covid stats is a bit silly. The Swedish catastrophe is always another 2 weeks away, and secondary effects of a lockdown (like delaying non-critical medical procedures and not screening for cancer) are likely to be much more significant than anticipated. Let's not forget that lockdowns were a knee-jerk reaction enacted by scared politicians, not a carefully considered and data-backed policy.
      - claudeganon 6y ago
        I think Sweden’s strategy is on the bad end of the spectrum and Taiwan and South Korea’s on the great end. I don’t anticipate any more catastrophe for them than their relative peers in the bad response group, but they did do quite bad compared to liberal democracies in SE Asia. Taiwan has had 11 deaths and South Korea about 300. Sweden has about 4700.
nickthemagicman 6y ago
I'm older than you and I've lost alot of faith in 'experts' as well. Today I read about several published studies that were retracted for unreliable data related to covid drugs. I'm now just using all of these things as one data point to make a decision with. News, politicians, scientific publications, experts, data. I've also lost faith in certain political parties which I was previously a member for their fanaticism and demonization of people who disagreed with their narrative and who still can't admit their thinking was flawed.
xelxebar 6y ago
> no wonder people don’t believe in global warming, these “experts” prioritize politics over everything I read this as a clear expression of your frustration. Completely reasonable given the situation. Are you familiar with the YouTube channel "Smarter Every Day"? There's this three-part series that might offer a new perspective on the distrust and disillusionment you seem to be feeling: [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4 [2]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4 [3]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_NtO7SIrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_NtO7SIrY In particular, the channel creator Destin Sandlin explores how YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook are being used as a sort of vanguard in a meta-game to undermine our trust in the social institutions we rely on. It's a pretty dystopian-sounding and bleak theme. However, Destin is really good at conveying a message of hope. Use your Critical Mind, of course, but also realize that there's a personal cost to adopting absolutist views like `"experts" prioritize politics over everything.'
- alkibiades 6y ago
  while interesting, i dont quite see how thats related. public health experts during this whole crisis have been morally and intellectually bankrupt. misinformation on social media is a separate issue
  - flyinglizard 6y ago
    I think the point is that usually, a layman would suspect the expert opinion after being exposed to another view broadcast on social media. Social media is the source and the moderator of our contrarian/critics information.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  > to undermine our trust in the social institutions we rely on. Is it YTs fault that the WHO was the absolutely dead last institution to recommend face mask usage on the planet? That even some countries that are having a very poor response have already recommended (or made mandatory in some circumstances) the use of masks? That the WHO is accepting all manners of political interference from China? Is it YTs fault that Lancet and NEJM published a completely fabricated article about HCQ usage at the point where this has become a contentious point? Sure, in the same week we have had other serious studies about it, but that one was, most likely, a fraud, that was rubber stamped by journals. That, at a critical moment, researchers from a prestigious epidemiology centre have pulled some models they had on the shelves without enough second-guessing it and predicting very catastrophic results (which granted, there might have been unknown at the time reasons for it) So yeah, I don't think it's solely the fault of Youtube and Facebook.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
I do hope you look more closely at the record. “Experts” are not a uniform monolith. Some are competent. Some aren’t.

shibeouya 6y ago

Wholeheartedly agree. I'm in my 30's with scientific education, but I will never take an "expert" opinion seriously after this. Very sad to see science shoot itself in the foot in the name of dubious politics.

commandlinefan 6y ago
I’m too familiar with university advancement policies to not be skeptical of the actual expertise of the “experts”.

natalyarostova 6y ago

Just learn to think for yourself by reading the classics and fundamentals. Read Karl Popper, study stats, read blogs like Andrew Gelman’s.

chasd00 6y ago

I got very skeptical reading the reaction to the antibody studies here. Also, the total hate for Sweden really depressed me. I've always held this place in high regard but I suppose it's still just more of the same.

sjg007 6y ago
The prevalence is too low for the antibody tests to be reliable. Every public health expert has reported that but people refuse to listen. Sweden has admitted their strategy is not working.
- alkibiades 6y ago
  i don’t think we’ll know what worked or didn’t for years from now. regardless of what even they say. it could be we just delayed deaths that will happen eventually anyway while commuting economic seppuku
  - hef19898 6y ago
    One ting everybod gnores right now regardign experts is, that this a novel virus. We don't have any prior exerience or knowledge about it. Wich means incomplete data and potentially wrong data from day one. Making decissions in such cirumstances is incredibly difficult, and I expect every expert to change his mind when the data changes. Does that potential confuse people? Yes. Are experts always right? No. Are they still the best resource we have? Yes.
    - alkibiades 6y ago
      i’m talking about things like them lying saying masks don’t work because they didn’t have enough. the who took until june to admit they work and now this whole thing about staying silent about the race riots because they support them even though they’re likely to cause a second wave
- irq11 6y ago
  They have done nothing of the sort. Tegnell was quoted as saying he would do some things differently, but was explicit that avoiding lockdowns was not something he would change. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-sweden-tegnell/sweden-should-have-done-more-against-coronavirus-but-broad-strategy-right-chief-epidemiologist-idUKKBN23A15B https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-sweden-... Sweden is mid-pack amongst european nations for death rate due to covid, and notably lower than the UK, Italy and France: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
- lenkite 6y ago
  "Sweden has admitted their strategy is not working." No they did not say that. I suggest taking MSM news with a great pinch of salt.
claudeganon 6y ago
I mean, Sweden is fairing badly next to their neighbors, and horrendously compared to countries like Taiwan and South Korea (who also didn’t have lockdowns). I don’t think people hate the country so much as they’re assessing the relative failure of their approach.
- 1bc29b36f623ba8 6y ago
  Sweden failed to protect their own elderly, mainly because national authorities simply assumed that local authorities were ready to fight a pandemic, when they were in fact hopelessly underfunded and staffed by underpaid staff with no PPE and who were expected to do stay at home on their own initiative and without payment if they got sick. The same happened in a few places here in Finland, and I am quite certain that if we'd let COVID-19 through retirement homes the way our dear neighbors did, we'd have a much higher death-rate. The actual Swedish stragegy, i.e. a soft lock-down with strong recommendations and only minor restrictions in travelling and gatherings, could actually have worked. Unfortunately, we'll never know as they screwed the retirement home situation up as bad as they did.
  - gizmo 6y ago
    Sweden did screw up the retirement home situation somewhat, but in terms of excess deaths all Nordic countries look identical. Finland, notably, doesn't even count covid deaths outside hospitals according to the THL, so comparing Swedish and Finnish covid stats is a bit silly. The Swedish catastrophe is always another 2 weeks away, and secondary effects of a lockdown (like delaying non-critical medical procedures and not screening for cancer) are likely to be much more significant than anticipated. Let's not forget that lockdowns were a knee-jerk reaction enacted by scared politicians, not a carefully considered and data-backed policy.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      I think Sweden’s strategy is on the bad end of the spectrum and Taiwan and South Korea’s on the great end. I don’t anticipate any more catastrophe for them than their relative peers in the bad response group, but they did do quite bad compared to liberal democracies in SE Asia. Taiwan has had 11 deaths and South Korea about 300. Sweden has about 4700.

nickthemagicman 6y ago

I'm older than you and I've lost alot of faith in 'experts' as well. Today I read about several published studies that were retracted for unreliable data related to covid drugs. I'm now just using all of these things as one data point to make a decision with. News, politicians, scientific publications, experts, data. I've also lost faith in certain political parties which I was previously a member for their fanaticism and demonization of people who disagreed with their narrative and who still can't admit their thinking was flawed.

xelxebar 6y ago

> no wonder people don’t believe in global warming, these “experts” prioritize politics over everything I read this as a clear expression of your frustration. Completely reasonable given the situation. Are you familiar with the YouTube channel "Smarter Every Day"? There's this three-part series that might offer a new perspective on the distrust and disillusionment you seem to be feeling: [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4 [2]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4 [3]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_NtO7SIrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_NtO7SIrY In particular, the channel creator Destin Sandlin explores how YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook are being used as a sort of vanguard in a meta-game to undermine our trust in the social institutions we rely on. It's a pretty dystopian-sounding and bleak theme. However, Destin is really good at conveying a message of hope. Use your Critical Mind, of course, but also realize that there's a personal cost to adopting absolutist views like `"experts" prioritize politics over everything.'

alkibiades 6y ago
while interesting, i dont quite see how thats related. public health experts during this whole crisis have been morally and intellectually bankrupt. misinformation on social media is a separate issue
- flyinglizard 6y ago
  I think the point is that usually, a layman would suspect the expert opinion after being exposed to another view broadcast on social media. Social media is the source and the moderator of our contrarian/critics information.
raverbashing 6y ago
> to undermine our trust in the social institutions we rely on. Is it YTs fault that the WHO was the absolutely dead last institution to recommend face mask usage on the planet? That even some countries that are having a very poor response have already recommended (or made mandatory in some circumstances) the use of masks? That the WHO is accepting all manners of political interference from China? Is it YTs fault that Lancet and NEJM published a completely fabricated article about HCQ usage at the point where this has become a contentious point? Sure, in the same week we have had other serious studies about it, but that one was, most likely, a fraud, that was rubber stamped by journals. That, at a critical moment, researchers from a prestigious epidemiology centre have pulled some models they had on the shelves without enough second-guessing it and predicting very catastrophic results (which granted, there might have been unknown at the time reasons for it) So yeah, I don't think it's solely the fault of Youtube and Facebook.

Hnrobert42 6y ago

I do hope you look more closely at the record. “Experts” are not a uniform monolith. Some are competent. Some aren’t.