5 ms·

It sounds kind of crazy on the surface but it makes sense - what else would you do if you completely lost faith in the police force to do its job effectively? I

by nkrisc 6y ago

It sounds kind of crazy on the surface but it makes sense - what else would you do if you completely lost faith in the police force to do its job effectively? It would probably seen easier to disband it and replace it with something else than to try and reform such an organization.

jimbob45 6y ago
- Bodycams - Mandatory psych evals half-yearly - Anonymous corruption reporting - Reduce/eliminate drug penalties - Eliminate civil forfeiture - Ticketing revenues no longer fund the department - Expanded auditing of violent calls Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. I fully expect MN to swing red this election as a result of this.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. Please elaborate.
- babygoat 6y ago
  Good luck with that.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    Many PDs have bodycams as-standard already.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Good cops love bodycams because the video footage exonerates them when something happens. Bad cops hate them.
- samename 6y ago
  Reforming the police doesn’t work. It was tried in the 60’s and it only strengthened the policy and lead to the creation of SWAT teams, DEA, and a militarized police force. More info: https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/ https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abo...
- morgante 6y ago
  All those things have been tried and reform is more limited. The biggest problem is that unions protect all the bad applies in "solidarity" so even with body cams and abundant evidence of brutality nothing happens. If you actually think body cams help, ask yourself why Derek Chauvin felt comfortable murdering George Floyd in broad daylight while being filmed.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  - What happens when the bodycams are off? Is the officer fired and jailed? - What happens when an officer fails the pysch eval? Are they fired? - Who oversees the corruption reporting? How do you know they are not corrupt too? They surely can't be part of the police dept. - Reduce/eliminate drug penalties: The problem is racism where drugs are often used as the excuse. Why is there no racism training in your list? Or de-escalation training? > Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. This is extremely rude and invalidating of large efforts put forward by the protesters to look at all options, think outside the box, and make real change. Some protesters have even been re-writing the police and city budgets themselves to see how things might turn out.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > What happens when the bodycams are off? Is the officer fired and jailed? If an officer's bodycam is turned off and there is a confrontation, the officer should be assumed guilty in any dispute. It should be the officer's responsibility to ensure their bodycam works, just as it is the officer's responsibility to ensure their gun works.
    - inamberclad 6y ago
      They aren't even assumed guilty when they're filmed killing someone.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        Yes, that's why I said should. I think bodycams themselves are fantastic tools—but like most technology, they cannot by themselves fix a human problem.
        catalogia 6y ago
        Our system doesn't assume criminal guilt under any circumstances, by design, and that's a good thing. Everybody accused of a crime has the right to a trial, even cops.
- chowells 6y ago
  It sounds to me like you have no idea what's going on in Minneapolis. The city has passed laws to require those things. The police department has sued, stonewalled, and flat out ignored those laws. This is the next logical step - when they won't obey the law, remove them entirely.
  - henriquez 6y ago
    A huge part of the problem in Minneapolis is the police union resisting any kind of reform. Unfortunately the most expedient way to get rid of the union is to fire _everyone._ Hopefully other police forces recognize this as a reminder to choose their battles more wisely.
- kevmo314 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. This is a totally uncalled for generalization. That aside, most of the items you've listed work against the policies that police abolitionists are fighting for. Here's a good explanation: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59ead8f9692ebee25b72f17f/t/5b65cd58758d46d34254f22c/1533398363539/CR_NoCops_reform_vs_abolition_CRside.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3PHOdc2EKzsyBQjWiMseiG_1dB_ihLryQmr4P7QVSPPsxbIHepzTDg4X4 https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59ead8f9692ebee25b72f...
  - xendo 6y ago
    The doc is really weird. It picks and evaluates dimensions that obviously will improve after disbanding the police, but doesn’t try to address the question if the actual safety will improve. Instead it looks at whether disbanding the police will “ challenge the notion that police increase safety?” wtf. Also hard to believe that more training and bodycams have negative effect on actual quality of policing and safety. Any data to support this?
    - marnett 6y ago
      > Also hard to believe that more training and bodycams have negative effect [...] The police use body cameras for real-time facial recognition of the policed [1]. It 100% has, and explicitly is, a negative effect. It was a right of center “reform” on the police that did nothing but further expand the power (and future of abuse of power) of our policing institutions. [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/03/22/real-time-face-recognition-threatens-to-turn-cops-body-cameras-into-surveillance-machines/ https://theintercept.com/2017/03/22/real-time-face-recogniti...
      - xendo 6y ago
        Now you would have to argue that real time face recognition is truly and solely a bad thing. If used correctly it can help reduce the violence in communities, catch child molesters, rescue kidnapped kids etc. Finally it would help defund the police as it can increase its efficiency.
- inamberclad 6y ago
  That's so much of what a metropolitan police force does that that's functionally equivalent to a disbanding, assuming they don't all resign in protest of being held accountable.
- WaxProlix 6y ago
  Did you just advocate for tearing apart the current policing paradigm and then wind up with "Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change"? That's a wild ride of a post right there. How do you think what's happening will differ from what you're suggesting?
- joe_the_user 6y ago
  Disbanding the force is more important than everything on your list. As others have said, once you lose institutional control, and the mayor and the police chief have both effective said that they have lost this, than small reform don't matter. Plus Minneapolis PD has a strong reputation as one of the most corruption in the nation. https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-police-officers-convicted-of-serious-crimes-still-on-the-job/437687453/ https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-police-officers-convic... https://www.patrickburnslaw.com/Articles/Business-Law-Articles/Two-Minneapolis-Police-Officers-Face-Retaliation-for-Doing-Their-Jobs.shtml https://www.patrickburnslaw.com/Articles/Business-Law-Articl...
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    It seems like the mayor and police chief should be voted out as well. If they cannot maintain control they should go as well.
    - bluesroo 6y ago
      I think you're missing some significant details. The NYT did a really good episode on it last week: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/podcasts/the-daily/george-floyd-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/podcasts/the-daily/george... TL;DR When a cop is fired there are several safety nets that can reinstate them. If I remember right, the union reinstates ~45% of fired officers. Neither the Chief nor the mayor have the LEGAL power to even fire bad actors in the police department. They literally cannot do anything about the problem within the law.
      - _-david-_ 6y ago
        I think you are missing what I am saying. The person I was responding to said the police cheif and mayor has lost control. If they have then they failed at their job and should be replaced. This does not mean that other things should not also be done. I beleive getting rid of / modifing the police unions would be beneficial. Fixing the whole qualified immunity issue would also be good. But I also think police need representatives to protect them from false accusations or from being railroaded. Maybe that is from a union or maybe its from something else.
nosuchthing 6y ago
There's a severe financial side to it all as well... The city budget funds the police, which funds the union, and they donate their money to the attorney general, mayor, and city council members. Often when they don't get the budget they demand, police will openly retaliate against local businesses and residents who did not support their budget.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Which is also exactly what the mob does.
- catacombs 6y ago
  I hope this closure impacts the union's finances severely, to the point of putting it on life support. Police unions are the modern day mob, and they are the reason why reform hasn't budged in this country for decades.

by nkrisc 6y ago

jimbob45 6y ago

- Bodycams - Mandatory psych evals half-yearly - Anonymous corruption reporting - Reduce/eliminate drug penalties - Eliminate civil forfeiture - Ticketing revenues no longer fund the department - Expanded auditing of violent calls Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. I fully expect MN to swing red this election as a result of this.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
> Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. Please elaborate.
babygoat 6y ago
Good luck with that.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  Many PDs have bodycams as-standard already.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Good cops love bodycams because the video footage exonerates them when something happens. Bad cops hate them.
samename 6y ago
Reforming the police doesn’t work. It was tried in the 60’s and it only strengthened the policy and lead to the creation of SWAT teams, DEA, and a militarized police force. More info: https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/ https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abo...
morgante 6y ago
All those things have been tried and reform is more limited. The biggest problem is that unions protect all the bad applies in "solidarity" so even with body cams and abundant evidence of brutality nothing happens. If you actually think body cams help, ask yourself why Derek Chauvin felt comfortable murdering George Floyd in broad daylight while being filmed.
cryptoz 6y ago
- What happens when the bodycams are off? Is the officer fired and jailed? - What happens when an officer fails the pysch eval? Are they fired? - Who oversees the corruption reporting? How do you know they are not corrupt too? They surely can't be part of the police dept. - Reduce/eliminate drug penalties: The problem is racism where drugs are often used as the excuse. Why is there no racism training in your list? Or de-escalation training? > Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. This is extremely rude and invalidating of large efforts put forward by the protesters to look at all options, think outside the box, and make real change. Some protesters have even been re-writing the police and city budgets themselves to see how things might turn out.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > What happens when the bodycams are off? Is the officer fired and jailed? If an officer's bodycam is turned off and there is a confrontation, the officer should be assumed guilty in any dispute. It should be the officer's responsibility to ensure their bodycam works, just as it is the officer's responsibility to ensure their gun works.
  - inamberclad 6y ago
    They aren't even assumed guilty when they're filmed killing someone.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Yes, that's why I said should. I think bodycams themselves are fantastic tools—but like most technology, they cannot by themselves fix a human problem.
      - catalogia 6y ago
        Our system doesn't assume criminal guilt under any circumstances, by design, and that's a good thing. Everybody accused of a crime has the right to a trial, even cops.
chowells 6y ago
It sounds to me like you have no idea what's going on in Minneapolis. The city has passed laws to require those things. The police department has sued, stonewalled, and flat out ignored those laws. This is the next logical step - when they won't obey the law, remove them entirely.
- henriquez 6y ago
  A huge part of the problem in Minneapolis is the police union resisting any kind of reform. Unfortunately the most expedient way to get rid of the union is to fire _everyone._ Hopefully other police forces recognize this as a reminder to choose their battles more wisely.
kevmo314 6y ago
> Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change. This is a totally uncalled for generalization. That aside, most of the items you've listed work against the policies that police abolitionists are fighting for. Here's a good explanation: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59ead8f9692ebee25b72f17f/t/5b65cd58758d46d34254f22c/1533398363539/CR_NoCops_reform_vs_abolition_CRside.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3PHOdc2EKzsyBQjWiMseiG_1dB_ihLryQmr4P7QVSPPsxbIHepzTDg4X4 https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59ead8f9692ebee25b72f...
- xendo 6y ago
  The doc is really weird. It picks and evaluates dimensions that obviously will improve after disbanding the police, but doesn’t try to address the question if the actual safety will improve. Instead it looks at whether disbanding the police will “ challenge the notion that police increase safety?” wtf. Also hard to believe that more training and bodycams have negative effect on actual quality of policing and safety. Any data to support this?
  - marnett 6y ago
    > Also hard to believe that more training and bodycams have negative effect [...] The police use body cameras for real-time facial recognition of the policed [1]. It 100% has, and explicitly is, a negative effect. It was a right of center “reform” on the police that did nothing but further expand the power (and future of abuse of power) of our policing institutions. [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/03/22/real-time-face-recognition-threatens-to-turn-cops-body-cameras-into-surveillance-machines/ https://theintercept.com/2017/03/22/real-time-face-recogniti...
    - xendo 6y ago
      Now you would have to argue that real time face recognition is truly and solely a bad thing. If used correctly it can help reduce the violence in communities, catch child molesters, rescue kidnapped kids etc. Finally it would help defund the police as it can increase its efficiency.
inamberclad 6y ago
That's so much of what a metropolitan police force does that that's functionally equivalent to a disbanding, assuming they don't all resign in protest of being held accountable.
WaxProlix 6y ago
Did you just advocate for tearing apart the current policing paradigm and then wind up with "Unfortunately, the greater group of protesters is incapable of understanding nuanced policy or democratic change"? That's a wild ride of a post right there. How do you think what's happening will differ from what you're suggesting?
joe_the_user 6y ago
Disbanding the force is more important than everything on your list. As others have said, once you lose institutional control, and the mayor and the police chief have both effective said that they have lost this, than small reform don't matter. Plus Minneapolis PD has a strong reputation as one of the most corruption in the nation. https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-police-officers-convicted-of-serious-crimes-still-on-the-job/437687453/ https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-police-officers-convic... https://www.patrickburnslaw.com/Articles/Business-Law-Articles/Two-Minneapolis-Police-Officers-Face-Retaliation-for-Doing-Their-Jobs.shtml https://www.patrickburnslaw.com/Articles/Business-Law-Articl...
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  It seems like the mayor and police chief should be voted out as well. If they cannot maintain control they should go as well.
  - bluesroo 6y ago
    I think you're missing some significant details. The NYT did a really good episode on it last week: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/podcasts/the-daily/george-floyd-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/podcasts/the-daily/george... TL;DR When a cop is fired there are several safety nets that can reinstate them. If I remember right, the union reinstates ~45% of fired officers. Neither the Chief nor the mayor have the LEGAL power to even fire bad actors in the police department. They literally cannot do anything about the problem within the law.
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      I think you are missing what I am saying. The person I was responding to said the police cheif and mayor has lost control. If they have then they failed at their job and should be replaced. This does not mean that other things should not also be done. I beleive getting rid of / modifing the police unions would be beneficial. Fixing the whole qualified immunity issue would also be good. But I also think police need representatives to protect them from false accusations or from being railroaded. Maybe that is from a union or maybe its from something else.

nosuchthing 6y ago

There's a severe financial side to it all as well... The city budget funds the police, which funds the union, and they donate their money to the attorney general, mayor, and city council members. Often when they don't get the budget they demand, police will openly retaliate against local businesses and residents who did not support their budget.

jjeaff 6y ago
Which is also exactly what the mob does.
catacombs 6y ago
I hope this closure impacts the union's finances severely, to the point of putting it on life support. Police unions are the modern day mob, and they are the reason why reform hasn't budged in this country for decades.