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> something like Cisco WebEx So you're going to love this. The CEO of Zoom is a former senior engineer on WebEx, funded by ex-WebEx employees and founders. Z

> something like Cisco WebEx So you're going to love this. The CEO of Zoom is a former senior engineer on WebEx, funded by ex-WebEx employees and founders. Zoom was originally him plus 40 software engineers in China. If I was Cisco, I'd be wondering how much code was copied into Zoom. And if I were you, I'd be wondering why people are using an essentially Chinese communications tool. Zoom is not a normal US company that outsources to China - the entire development team started in China with a San Jose "HQ" (because Cisco is based in San Jose.)

throw554323 6y ago
Eric Yuan worked for WebEx before it was acquired by a Cisco. While he was at Cisco, he tried to improve WebEx, but none of his managers listened and he felt they were moving to slow [1]. He left and started his own company. He’s an American. His wife is an American. His kids are American. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/zoom-founder-left-job-because-he-wasnt-happy-became-billionaire.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/zoom-founder-left-job-becaus...
- Sevaris 6y ago
  Nobody said he wasn't American. The team that made and works on Zoom is in China though.
  - bamboozled 6y ago
    What happens if Chinese people work on it?
    - Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
      Chinese Ministry of State Security can inject a coder/sysmin who adds vulnerabilities which are then used for espionage against corporations/governments. The National Security Agency has done things like that in the past, so it is safe to assume the chinese do it to.
      - rad_gruchalski 6y ago
        Playing devil’s advocate: what should the rest of the world do when using proprietary technology from the USA, given that NSA likes to have their nose in everything?
        otachack 6y ago
        Use and contribute to open source alternatives?
        ryanlol 6y ago
        So how do you keep MSS and NSA from planting bugdoors in the open source alternatives?
        MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        Seems like a reasonable question. A relevant example: SELinux came from the NSA.
        lifty 6y ago
        The software industry needs to adapt to the challenges of a fully digitized world and at the moment things are a bit behind. The first and most important part is to have reproducible builds and core signing, so in cases where the source is available, people should be able to easily trace what’s in the software they’re using and who contributed. I think this is a technical challenge and some software ecosystems are trying to solve it (Go, Rust etc.). The next thing that I would like to see happening is more commercial software licenses that allow making a living from selling software but that give access to the source. I prefer a world where I pay for software and developers can make a living, and at the same time be able to check that the promises that the developer makes are held.
        whydoyoucare 6y ago
        How would code-signing help if NSA arm-twists you into introducing a backdoor in your code? Even for open-source, it is difficult for average-Joe to trace and figure out contributions (its like saying the automobile engine has blueprints available, so everyone should be able to figure out what's wrong). :-)
    - tenaciousDaniel 6y ago
      Come on, everyone knows this is not about denigrating Chinese people. To have an entire software team located in China puts the product at risk because of the potential interference of the CCP.
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        Just as with USA/NSA, it seems. For regular citizens, in USA, isn't having NSA know your stuff worse than having CCP know it?
    - swsieber 6y ago
      Ethnically Chinese? Nothing in particular. Chinese as in "under the jurisdiction the Chinese government"? Well... quite a bit. The comment was pretty specific about it being the location.
- joering2 6y ago
  > His kids are American. Wait, what??
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > He’s an American. His wife is an American. While this is true, both he and his wife were born in China, and it's not clear if they renounced their Chinese citizenship. I buy their explanation that development is done in China to save money, but it's an interesting choice for someone so concerned with looking like an American company.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
XMPPwocky 6y ago
"Talented engineer leaves old, bloated company to found new startup that becomes a massive success, disrupting a stagnant industry" is a classic tech success story. Awesome to point out such a cool bit of backstory- SV folks love these scrappy underdog stories, the developers who take a risk, leaving their comfy corporate jobs to create a product customers love.
sabas123 6y ago
Can you source the claim it is developed almost exclusively in China?
- voicedYoda 6y ago
  Quick search gets result [1]. Can't find the discussion now, but zoom personnel came up in other discussions here and someone mentioned, with source, 700 devs on China. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
- wolco 6y ago
  This is well known. Sorry for the amp link I'm in a hurry I have a zoom call in a few minutes https://www.google.com/amp/s/technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-chinese-rd/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom...
  - ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
    > Sorry for the amp link I'm in a hurry I have a zoom call in a few minutes It would have taken you less time to fetch the original link than to type that.
    - manojlds 6y ago
      Or they could have used dictation, how do you know? And clearly, it's partly a joke.
    - dhosek 6y ago
      I've found it's rather difficult to get from an amp link to the original, especially on mobile where editing the url isn't as straightforward as I would hope. Plus google seems to ignore non-amp pages in favor of amp. amp is a real poison on the web.
    - wolco 6y ago
      https://technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-chinese-rd/ https://technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-ch... I'm on mobile, it was part true. I really had no idea I needed to click on that tiny i and didn't have time to do a search by title. Typing in mobile is really fast type days. I have a full keyword/small phone. I started training myself to type faster on mobile by coding on a mobile editor a few years ago. It is so much more difficult at first but you become more focused with time. Add in a free editor app with ad popups every few minutes for additional challenge.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
m3kw9 6y ago
If I were you I wouldn’t advise people based on conspiracy theories
jonathanstrange 6y ago
> I'd be wondering why people are using an essentially Chinese communications tool. People use it because it's currently the best product. For us at our university, ease of use and the fact that it allows the speaker of a talk to see the audience while sharing screen made it the preferable tool.
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
>And if I were you, I'd be wondering why people are using an essentially Chinese communications tool. // Why not? As I'm in the UK I assume that either I use a USA based product and have my data open to USA government sponsored TLAs, or use proprietary products from other countries and have their secret agencies have some sort of access. With Five-Eyes, or Maximator, mainstream development in one of the countries involved suggests there's going to be intelligence agency access. For private citizens access by CCP is probably (unless you have links to China) far lower risk than using software connected to Western nations. I don't have need of secret communications really; Jitsi (meet.jit.si serves my needs when I get to choose the video chat software; family and friends seem happy with it).

throw554323 6y ago

Eric Yuan worked for WebEx before it was acquired by a Cisco. While he was at Cisco, he tried to improve WebEx, but none of his managers listened and he felt they were moving to slow [1]. He left and started his own company. He’s an American. His wife is an American. His kids are American. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/zoom-founder-left-job-because-he-wasnt-happy-became-billionaire.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/zoom-founder-left-job-becaus...

Sevaris 6y ago
Nobody said he wasn't American. The team that made and works on Zoom is in China though.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  What happens if Chinese people work on it?
  - Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
    Chinese Ministry of State Security can inject a coder/sysmin who adds vulnerabilities which are then used for espionage against corporations/governments. The National Security Agency has done things like that in the past, so it is safe to assume the chinese do it to.
    - rad_gruchalski 6y ago
      Playing devil’s advocate: what should the rest of the world do when using proprietary technology from the USA, given that NSA likes to have their nose in everything?
      - otachack 6y ago
        Use and contribute to open source alternatives?
        ryanlol 6y ago
        So how do you keep MSS and NSA from planting bugdoors in the open source alternatives?
        MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        Seems like a reasonable question. A relevant example: SELinux came from the NSA.
      - lifty 6y ago
        The software industry needs to adapt to the challenges of a fully digitized world and at the moment things are a bit behind. The first and most important part is to have reproducible builds and core signing, so in cases where the source is available, people should be able to easily trace what’s in the software they’re using and who contributed. I think this is a technical challenge and some software ecosystems are trying to solve it (Go, Rust etc.). The next thing that I would like to see happening is more commercial software licenses that allow making a living from selling software but that give access to the source. I prefer a world where I pay for software and developers can make a living, and at the same time be able to check that the promises that the developer makes are held.
        whydoyoucare 6y ago
        How would code-signing help if NSA arm-twists you into introducing a backdoor in your code? Even for open-source, it is difficult for average-Joe to trace and figure out contributions (its like saying the automobile engine has blueprints available, so everyone should be able to figure out what's wrong). :-)
  - tenaciousDaniel 6y ago
    Come on, everyone knows this is not about denigrating Chinese people. To have an entire software team located in China puts the product at risk because of the potential interference of the CCP.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      Just as with USA/NSA, it seems. For regular citizens, in USA, isn't having NSA know your stuff worse than having CCP know it?
  - swsieber 6y ago
    Ethnically Chinese? Nothing in particular. Chinese as in "under the jurisdiction the Chinese government"? Well... quite a bit. The comment was pretty specific about it being the location.
joering2 6y ago
> His kids are American. Wait, what??
dehrmann 6y ago
> He’s an American. His wife is an American. While this is true, both he and his wife were born in China, and it's not clear if they renounced their Chinese citizenship. I buy their explanation that development is done in China to save money, but it's an interesting choice for someone so concerned with looking like an American company.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

XMPPwocky 6y ago

"Talented engineer leaves old, bloated company to found new startup that becomes a massive success, disrupting a stagnant industry" is a classic tech success story. Awesome to point out such a cool bit of backstory- SV folks love these scrappy underdog stories, the developers who take a risk, leaving their comfy corporate jobs to create a product customers love.

sabas123 6y ago

Can you source the claim it is developed almost exclusively in China?

voicedYoda 6y ago
Quick search gets result [1]. Can't find the discussion now, but zoom personnel came up in other discussions here and someone mentioned, with source, 700 devs on China. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
wolco 6y ago
This is well known. Sorry for the amp link I'm in a hurry I have a zoom call in a few minutes https://www.google.com/amp/s/technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-chinese-rd/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom...
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
  > Sorry for the amp link I'm in a hurry I have a zoom call in a few minutes It would have taken you less time to fetch the original link than to type that.
  - manojlds 6y ago
    Or they could have used dictation, how do you know? And clearly, it's partly a joke.
  - dhosek 6y ago
    I've found it's rather difficult to get from an amp link to the original, especially on mobile where editing the url isn't as straightforward as I would hope. Plus google seems to ignore non-amp pages in favor of amp. amp is a real poison on the web.
  - wolco 6y ago
    https://technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-chinese-rd/ https://technode.com/2020/04/13/is-zoom-crazy-to-count-on-ch... I'm on mobile, it was part true. I really had no idea I needed to click on that tiny i and didn't have time to do a search by title. Typing in mobile is really fast type days. I have a full keyword/small phone. I started training myself to type faster on mobile by coding on a mobile editor a few years ago. It is so much more difficult at first but you become more focused with time. Add in a free editor app with ad popups every few minutes for additional challenge.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

m3kw9 6y ago

If I were you I wouldn’t advise people based on conspiracy theories

jonathanstrange 6y ago

> I'd be wondering why people are using an essentially Chinese communications tool. People use it because it's currently the best product. For us at our university, ease of use and the fact that it allows the speaker of a talk to see the audience while sharing screen made it the preferable tool.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago

>And if I were you, I'd be wondering why people are using an essentially Chinese communications tool. // Why not? As I'm in the UK I assume that either I use a USA based product and have my data open to USA government sponsored TLAs, or use proprietary products from other countries and have their secret agencies have some sort of access. With Five-Eyes, or Maximator, mainstream development in one of the countries involved suggests there's going to be intelligence agency access. For private citizens access by CCP is probably (unless you have links to China) far lower risk than using software connected to Western nations. I don't have need of secret communications really; Jitsi (meet.jit.si serves my needs when I get to choose the video chat software; family and friends seem happy with it).