11 ms·

Not quite - I use a wired Apple keyboard (otherwise a great keyboard, feels way better than the magic keyboard and the usb on the side connects to my mouse) tha

by harha 6y ago

Not quite - I use a wired Apple keyboard (otherwise a great keyboard, feels way better than the magic keyboard and the usb on the side connects to my mouse) that doesn’t work on my MacBook unless I use the extension cord, on another MacBook it works without. It might have to do with something with the NVRAM battery being weak but I didn’t have the time to explore further. [1] In theory we should be able to get rid of cables, but that is also a messed up standard, I’d rather connect my keyboard that extends to the mouse than switch devices with Bluetooth. Sounds like we need another standard: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ [1]: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5676379 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5676379

fnord123 6y ago
>In theory we should be able to get rid of cables In theory, but no thanks. I don't want wireless peripherals.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  What's the downside of a wireless keyboard and mouse that just work?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Wireless is subject to interference and introduces new security concerns. They run on batteries which you then have to replace. They tend to cost more. That's a lot of trouble to avoid a two foot USB cable.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      "In theory" all of those problems can be solved, though. I want to know why someone doesn't want wireless even in theory.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        In theory there is no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        But we're not talking about practice. The difference between theory and practice is not a reason to dislike the theory version!
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        The theory version doesn't actually exist.
        fragmede 6y ago
        It is! In engineering, as discrete from science, the point of theory is to know what is going to happen in practice. If theory can't tell you, then it's useless for practical purposes. If the theory is ignoring important aspects of reality that make it useless, then what's the point of theory? Eg In theory we can move faster than light, we just need a source of infinite energy. In practice, "infinite" is an impossibly large amount of energy, so any theories that allow for faster than light travel are only interesting for entertainment/theoretical purposes. For wireless connections, the gulf between theory and practice is just too large, so theory remains theoretical.
      - smichel17 6y ago
        Latency -- You'll never get a wireless mouse faster than fiber-optic, since the computer screen would interfere with optical wireless transmission ;) I jest. The real theoretical issue is pairing (portability). I can't think of a wireless solution that provides all three of: 1. No dongle. I don't want an extra thing to keep track of. 2. Fast and convenient pairing ("plug" and play). Connecting to a different computer should not be a hassle. 3. Secure. Device must only pair with computers of my choosing. Dongles, WPS buttons, and bluetooth number confirmation are existing solutions that provide any two. A physical plug combines "connect" and "authorize" steps, neatly sidestepping the issue. The closest thing I could think of to solve this would be a standard, as ubiquitous as USB, for wireless connection: each device has a code that serves as protocol negotiation, identification, and authorization. So you open up a "connect a device" dialog on the computer, type in your device's code, and the computer automatically discovers the device and pairs with it. But even this is a compromise on both usability (another thing to remember...) and/or security (it could be printed on the device, like a serial number, but then...). And, of course there's the myriad practical issues mentioned elsewhere in the thread. I think if they were (truly) solved, I would buy wireless devices for my home setup, to do away with cable management, and keep cheap wired ones for use with other people's computers. I don't anticipate this happening for at least a decade or two.
  - AdrianB1 6y ago
    Stopping to work in the middle of a live presentation or in the middle of a game. My mouse is excellent, I love it but I have a magnetic USB cable next to the mouse pad for the times where I get a warning 10 seconds before shutting down.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      What if it was powered wirelessly, with a range as big as the cable?
      - Macha 6y ago
        This is not the world we live in. It would also need to work with many such devices in proximity, such as office cubicles or university lecture halls.
        pdimitar 6y ago
        The Logitech G903 mouse has a special pad that also charges it wirelessly.
        fnord123 6y ago
        Maybe I am a stupid layman but isn't that mouse pad basically a low power induction cooker? Am I superstitious to not want to keep my hand on an induction cooker for hours per day?
        pdimitar 6y ago
        As far as I know, yeah, it is. No clue how strong it is but I'd be worried a bit as well. We both use the G900 anyway. Needs charging like twice a week. Depending on usage it can even go once two weeks only.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    It doesn't just work. If I get a wireless keyboard and mouse that "just works" in theory but in practice does not "just work" always, then that's a load of hassle that far outweighs any advantages it may have. In essence, the drawback is the lack of trust, because the promises of wireless that "just works" have been repeatedly made and broken. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... I won't allow myself to be fooled again by such promises. So if you do have a system that just works, then I'd refuse it on principle (because I simply won't believe your claims, no matter what you say) until at least multiple years have passed with it being widely used resulting in a general consensus that it really does just work in all cases, without there being e.g. a 1% minority talking about all the many edge cases they encountered where it turns out that it does not actually "just work".
    - somehnguy 6y ago
      >I won't allow myself to be fooled again by such promises I get the sentiment, but its kind of silly in practice. Things improve almost constantly. Just trying to say I have been using a wireless mouse and keyboard for years, they have never given me any trouble. In fact, even less trouble than wired peripherals have given me over the years. Maybe you should bend your rule and try out some modern stuff if your previous experience was not a modern device.
      - adrianN 6y ago
        Maybe you're lucky. The relevant radio band is crowded enough where my wireless peripherals live that I get annoyed by them at least once a day.
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    Batteries.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    They don't "just work". Whether it's Logitech or Apple mouse, my cat laying in front of the pad breaks the connection. (Not enough to disconnect, just adds jitter) When playing games, wireless keyboard/mouse introduce enough latency that twitchy platformers or competitive shooters are impacted. (Unless you buy super expensive game-oriented device) Bluetooth devices are terrible... by design because of Bluetooth and its problems. Special dongles don't function well when plugged in on the back of monitors and sometimes need manual "replug" to register after a reboot. Then there's battery replacement / charging.
    - pdimitar 6y ago
      I hope this doesn't get treated as an advertisement since I'm not affiliated -- but do try Logitech G900 (also branded as Chaos Spectrum) or G903 mice. My wife played competitive Overwatch for a few months some years ago and she said the mouse feels exactly as a wired device. I play Quake every now and then and can confirm the same. Best mouse we ever used, we have 4 at home. It has the added benefit that it disables its wireless circuitry when you plug it in -- it both recharges itself and becomes a wired mouse. (Yes, both mice can be viewed as expensive. But we took the plunge to invest in reliable periphery and have only been happy with our investment.)
  - kelnos 6y ago
    The need for battery charging or replacement. That alone makes me shy away from them.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    The problem is unnecessarily occupying wireless spectrum for devices than can use a cable. You can make a wireless monitor. I expect it to work just fine in a home environment. I expect it to fail in all kinds of crazy ways in an office with dozens of these monitors side by side among other devices also using wireless communications like phones.
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    Potential interference, crowded spectrum, battery required, extra weight due to the presence of battery, and if the encryption is weak then you have a signal broadcasting all that you type in the vicinity which could be a security nightmare.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      I didn't realize people had such low expectations for "just works". Getting a reliable signal for such a short range and low bandwidth is obviously possible, as is using proper encryption. Batteries can be light, with the weight compensated for, and charge wirelessly. The reason I said "just works" was to avoid an exhaustive list of issues that have already been solved in other products, or could be solved with some effort.
ksec 6y ago
Just wondering, by Apple Keyboard, is that the same as old Scissors Keyboard ? And by Magic Keyboard, you are referring to the new Keyboard on MacBook Pro 16"?
- harha 6y ago
  I think so. From the page on apple keyboards [1] I’m referring to A1243 and A1843. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard

by harha 6y ago

fnord123 6y ago

>In theory we should be able to get rid of cables In theory, but no thanks. I don't want wireless peripherals.

Dylan16807 6y ago
What's the downside of a wireless keyboard and mouse that just work?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  Wireless is subject to interference and introduces new security concerns. They run on batteries which you then have to replace. They tend to cost more. That's a lot of trouble to avoid a two foot USB cable.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    "In theory" all of those problems can be solved, though. I want to know why someone doesn't want wireless even in theory.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        But we're not talking about practice. The difference between theory and practice is not a reason to dislike the theory version!
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        The theory version doesn't actually exist.
        fragmede 6y ago
        It is! In engineering, as discrete from science, the point of theory is to know what is going to happen in practice. If theory can't tell you, then it's useless for practical purposes. If the theory is ignoring important aspects of reality that make it useless, then what's the point of theory? Eg In theory we can move faster than light, we just need a source of infinite energy. In practice, "infinite" is an impossibly large amount of energy, so any theories that allow for faster than light travel are only interesting for entertainment/theoretical purposes. For wireless connections, the gulf between theory and practice is just too large, so theory remains theoretical.
    - smichel17 6y ago
      Latency -- You'll never get a wireless mouse faster than fiber-optic, since the computer screen would interfere with optical wireless transmission ;) I jest. The real theoretical issue is pairing (portability). I can't think of a wireless solution that provides all three of: 1. No dongle. I don't want an extra thing to keep track of. 2. Fast and convenient pairing ("plug" and play). Connecting to a different computer should not be a hassle. 3. Secure. Device must only pair with computers of my choosing. Dongles, WPS buttons, and bluetooth number confirmation are existing solutions that provide any two. A physical plug combines "connect" and "authorize" steps, neatly sidestepping the issue. The closest thing I could think of to solve this would be a standard, as ubiquitous as USB, for wireless connection: each device has a code that serves as protocol negotiation, identification, and authorization. So you open up a "connect a device" dialog on the computer, type in your device's code, and the computer automatically discovers the device and pairs with it. But even this is a compromise on both usability (another thing to remember...) and/or security (it could be printed on the device, like a serial number, but then...). And, of course there's the myriad practical issues mentioned elsewhere in the thread. I think if they were (truly) solved, I would buy wireless devices for my home setup, to do away with cable management, and keep cheap wired ones for use with other people's computers. I don't anticipate this happening for at least a decade or two.
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  Stopping to work in the middle of a live presentation or in the middle of a game. My mouse is excellent, I love it but I have a magnetic USB cable next to the mouse pad for the times where I get a warning 10 seconds before shutting down.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    What if it was powered wirelessly, with a range as big as the cable?
    - Macha 6y ago
      This is not the world we live in. It would also need to work with many such devices in proximity, such as office cubicles or university lecture halls.
      - pdimitar 6y ago
        The Logitech G903 mouse has a special pad that also charges it wirelessly.
        fnord123 6y ago
        Maybe I am a stupid layman but isn't that mouse pad basically a low power induction cooker? Am I superstitious to not want to keep my hand on an induction cooker for hours per day?
        pdimitar 6y ago
        As far as I know, yeah, it is. No clue how strong it is but I'd be worried a bit as well. We both use the G900 anyway. Needs charging like twice a week. Depending on usage it can even go once two weeks only.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  It doesn't just work. If I get a wireless keyboard and mouse that "just works" in theory but in practice does not "just work" always, then that's a load of hassle that far outweighs any advantages it may have. In essence, the drawback is the lack of trust, because the promises of wireless that "just works" have been repeatedly made and broken. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... I won't allow myself to be fooled again by such promises. So if you do have a system that just works, then I'd refuse it on principle (because I simply won't believe your claims, no matter what you say) until at least multiple years have passed with it being widely used resulting in a general consensus that it really does just work in all cases, without there being e.g. a 1% minority talking about all the many edge cases they encountered where it turns out that it does not actually "just work".
  - somehnguy 6y ago
    >I won't allow myself to be fooled again by such promises I get the sentiment, but its kind of silly in practice. Things improve almost constantly. Just trying to say I have been using a wireless mouse and keyboard for years, they have never given me any trouble. In fact, even less trouble than wired peripherals have given me over the years. Maybe you should bend your rule and try out some modern stuff if your previous experience was not a modern device.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Maybe you're lucky. The relevant radio band is crowded enough where my wireless peripherals live that I get annoyed by them at least once a day.
- Leherenn 6y ago
  Batteries.
- viraptor 6y ago
  They don't "just work". Whether it's Logitech or Apple mouse, my cat laying in front of the pad breaks the connection. (Not enough to disconnect, just adds jitter) When playing games, wireless keyboard/mouse introduce enough latency that twitchy platformers or competitive shooters are impacted. (Unless you buy super expensive game-oriented device) Bluetooth devices are terrible... by design because of Bluetooth and its problems. Special dongles don't function well when plugged in on the back of monitors and sometimes need manual "replug" to register after a reboot. Then there's battery replacement / charging.
  - pdimitar 6y ago
    I hope this doesn't get treated as an advertisement since I'm not affiliated -- but do try Logitech G900 (also branded as Chaos Spectrum) or G903 mice. My wife played competitive Overwatch for a few months some years ago and she said the mouse feels exactly as a wired device. I play Quake every now and then and can confirm the same. Best mouse we ever used, we have 4 at home. It has the added benefit that it disables its wireless circuitry when you plug it in -- it both recharges itself and becomes a wired mouse. (Yes, both mice can be viewed as expensive. But we took the plunge to invest in reliable periphery and have only been happy with our investment.)
- kelnos 6y ago
  The need for battery charging or replacement. That alone makes me shy away from them.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  The problem is unnecessarily occupying wireless spectrum for devices than can use a cable. You can make a wireless monitor. I expect it to work just fine in a home environment. I expect it to fail in all kinds of crazy ways in an office with dozens of these monitors side by side among other devices also using wireless communications like phones.
- m-p-3 6y ago
  Potential interference, crowded spectrum, battery required, extra weight due to the presence of battery, and if the encryption is weak then you have a signal broadcasting all that you type in the vicinity which could be a security nightmare.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    I didn't realize people had such low expectations for "just works". Getting a reliable signal for such a short range and low bandwidth is obviously possible, as is using proper encryption. Batteries can be light, with the weight compensated for, and charge wirelessly. The reason I said "just works" was to avoid an exhaustive list of issues that have already been solved in other products, or could be solved with some effort.

ksec 6y ago

Just wondering, by Apple Keyboard, is that the same as old Scissors Keyboard ? And by Magic Keyboard, you are referring to the new Keyboard on MacBook Pro 16"?

harha 6y ago
I think so. From the page on apple keyboards [1] I’m referring to A1243 and A1843. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard