8 ms·

SketchUp Goes Subscription-Only

60 points by tech234a 6y ago

buserror 6y ago
I think all these companies rely on /captive audiences/. ie people who have invested in their product already, and they can somehow "up sell" them the subscribtion for a while and it sounds like a GREAT plan. However, any 'new' customer will not let themselves be trapped. It's happening with Adobe Photoshop and stuff, where they've been skinning their customer base for years, but quite frankly who would now as a new potiential customer decide to shackle themselves to that? I know quite a few people who will use inferior tools JUST so they don't have to hook up to Adobe blood-suck. Say Adobe Lightroom. Super product, but updates started to slow down and slow down and WOW now look it's all ONLINE baby for a price. I bought all updates until LR6, but now I know it's a lot cheaper to archive my machine with LR6 in a corner and use it for my photo edit than switching to the 'super value online thingy' for $$$/year. I don't use it that much to want that, and next time I want to use it, it actually might be incompatible with /whatever is in my chain of hardware/ anyway. I'm sad to say Sketchup is doing this, if they had a $100 upgrade price every year or so, I'd pay happily -- however here's lies the other main problem: these companies don't WANT to invest in R&D enough to have a 'valid' reason to have a new major version every 12-18 months, they actually think people will just keep paying. Well guess what, perhaps some people will, but no NEW people will. In the case of sketchup, whatever the marketing blurbs have spattered about, NOTHING IS NEW for like 10 years, I mean, they try to add 'hooks' here and there, but the main program is exactly the same, same bugs for that long. I suspect the devs who know how to do matrix multiplication have long left after google dumped the product, and they are now left with a handful of webheads. Do I want to pay for that? Hmm wait until I clean the coffee off the front my t-shirt.
- roywiggins 6y ago
  I'm still on Lightroom 5, I bought it years ago and that's where all my photos live. If I'd been forced into a subscription the total cost would have been many multiples of what I paid. I don't rent my camera for years on end- why would I rent the software that organizes all my photos?
  - StillBored 6y ago
    I agree and there are pieces of software I've only purchased once and have used for decades. But that also creates a bit of an incentive not to worry to much about quality. After all, selling you a fixed progress bar in the next version gives people an incentive to upgrade. Its really to bad, that paying for software isn't more about rewarding good behavior.
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  Agree on all points but I'd be surprised if sketch up had a captive audience? It's not like adobe that basically just had to put a fence around the herd, they basically just closed the doors with no one inside. Unless a lot has a changed I remember sketch up barely working much less being used by professionals? it's very weird to make their product less accessible at this stage. Edit: to clarify I'm not saying you can't be professional and use sketchup, it's more that it's hard to really pull the subscription bait on switch on non corporate users on a niche product like this. Especially a niche that has alternatives.Maybe sketchup is actually used in business now though.
- fmajid 6y ago
  I have two LR6 licenses, so 4 computers (my desktop, my wife’s laptop, my laptop and one spare). The second license I bought less than a year ago (DVD from B&H, I was surprised it was still available for sale). With DNG converter, it even works reasonably well with my newer cameras (Nikon Z7 and Fuji X-T4, my Ricoh GRIII being supported natively). At some point it will stop working with macOS the way CS6 did, but I also flipped the bozo bit on Apple so my plan is to switch to Linux and DarkTable, which is making great strides.
monadic2 6y ago
Is anyone aware analyses of how this affects a company, their employees, their products? I find it very difficult to reason about value with subscription services, especially when the costs are even more divorced from labor than normal.
- som33 6y ago
  Subscription software is just a way to fleece gullible people, most software before mass internet penetration allowed stealing software (I refuse to call software as a subscription a rational thing for 99% of software). Is just a way for companies to sell you the same shit repackaged with only minimal effort. You don't seem to grasp the fundamental principle of a corporation is to give you the LEAST possible service for the highest possible price. AKA it's fuck you I got mine. 99% of the time Software as a service preys on gullible people and flaws in your psychology you aren't aware of. Best to stay away. Piracy actually put pressure on companies to innovate because you could get the complete version for free there was some incentive to improve the product to make it better than the pirate version, as strange as that sounds. Piracy is actually good for competition because most people are honest, if that wasn't the case Microsoft, EA, Valve, etc couldn't have become rich pre-internet where it was trivially easy to pirate everything by just copying the files. Modern DRM is literally holding files hostage using the internet as a dongle and using encryption. So no software as a service preys on gullible people to sell you last years with minor tweaks at inflated prices.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    I tend to agree (hence why I commented), but I was curious if there was any methodology out there for figuring out things like margins and man hours per subscription cycle—I am fairly illiterate in reading through quarterly releases, for instance, and I'm not even sure if this thing is required to be reported.
    - som33 6y ago
      Software is largely enormous margin in an era of increasing drm and encryption because they can delay piracy indefinitely like on mobile with client-server gacha games. Check out the revenue for mobile, it's insane because it preys on mass stupidity and tech illiteracy. https://newzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Newzoo-2019-Global-Games-Market-per-Segment.png https://newzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Newzoo-2019-Gl... Either way many segments of software you can be sure are making insane profits like Overwatch, league of legends with selling flags for skins. The internet has given tech companies 24/7 access to the super rich, the super gullible and super mentally ill. Think about that for a second, before the internet people with brainless spending habits had no direct access to companies they got their products through intermediaries. The internet is a game changer for software companies because they can trap software inside "the world sized PC" we call the internet. The internet remember, is the worlds biggest motherboard, and whoever programs the motherboard owns the motherboard. That's how we ended up with steam drm, uplay, origin, etc. We've been getting hacked software and slaughtered on the privacy freedom front because the average consumer is retard level stupid when it comes to technology. Many software companies are getting away with the crime of the century. I'll see if I can't poke around and find some helpful guides for you to decode corporate speak.
WhatIsDukkha 6y ago
For many people its likely that just learning some Blender is a good choice these days - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=using+blender+2.8+like+sketchup&page=&utm_source=opensearch https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=using+blender+2... Being able to work in 3d is like a superpower that is just laying there waiting for you :)
vatys 6y ago
I've been using the free SketchUp (now SketchupMake) for many years, and it seems that no longer exists. I think it's been replaced with a new web-only free version. I found it to be pretty nice for simple woodworking and home projects, with a rather intuitive interface. My use was so casual and infrequent that I never really considered the paid version. Is there a good alternative (free or reasonably priced paid) for very simple and casual 3D modeling?
- chabes 6y ago
  Tinkercad is free. It’s even simpler than sketchup. Might be what you’re looking for. https://tinkercad.com/ https://tinkercad.com/
  - ab_testing 6y ago
    TinkerCad is owned by AutoDesk. So I would not be surprised if it ends up in a similar situation as Sketchup. If you want a totally free product that is also open source - your 2 options are 1. Freecad https://www.freecadweb.org/ https://www.freecadweb.org/ 2. Blender https://www.blender.org/ https://www.blender.org/
- avhon1 6y ago
  I've found Solvespace to be a very nice OSS alternative to Sketchup for 3D printing. Perhaps it's good for woodworking, too. http://solvespace.com/index.pl http://solvespace.com/index.pl Here's a good tutorial: https://www.farwire.net/SolveSpace-LearningGuide.htm https://www.farwire.net/SolveSpace-LearningGuide.htm
runxel 6y ago
It is really hard to read through all that marketing nonsense. Not sure if I should cry or burst out in tears from laughing. In any case I can't stand all that false statements. Let's take this one for example: > Subscription demands constant improvement of our product and enables us to make $Product better for you — faster. In fact, the opposite is the case! Just look at Adobe. Or maybe CAD/BIM products, like Revit from Autodesk. The only thing that was new in this years version was slanted walls (!). Something competitors have for ~20 years already. So for me subscription basically is equivalent with the opposite. As soon companies decided to switch from the possibility to let me buy their software, as in "I own this thing and I can use it indefinitely." to "rent" their software, progress came to a grinding halt most times. The reason why this doesn't work like in the PR statement above is the way things work in real life. First you lock them customers in: all their files are now in your proprietary format. The presumption from above is, that you won't renew you subscription when you don't like the new yearly version – but then you can no longer access your files you need, since you do business! So cancelling of subscriptions basically never happens, turning your company into a gold mine. Yearly realases are bad btw and nobody likes them. Except shareholdes maybe.
- buserror 6y ago
  Completely agree here. I think subscribtions are bad for customers, AND THE DEVELOPERS too. Basically companies cut down on R&D instead of pushing on R&D to gain new upgrade and customers fees. I bought GraphicConverter [1] a zillion years ago, and I just upgraded to their v11, and so I paid them probably more than I've ever paid any other software -- BUT, they always come up with a list of improvement 5 pages long, and I've been using that stuff on/off for 20+ years. I have no problems pushing money their way, I know where that money is going ultimately. It certainly doesn't go in shareholder or marketing drone's pocket. [1]: https://www.lemkesoft.de/en/products/graphicconverter/ https://www.lemkesoft.de/en/products/graphicconverter/
  - api 6y ago
    This is driven by the shift toward valuing companies entirely on recurrent revenue. I've been told that non-recurrent revenue is meaningless and is often ignored. Its just the latest business fad.
smnrchrds 6y ago
So they are going from 700$ for perpetual license to 300$ per year subscription. How on earth are they framing it as a net benefit for their customers?
- antaviana 6y ago
  Probably the quality of their product will increase because they will not have the pressure to engage the yearly upgrade circus, adding dubious features just to justify upgrading and competing with themselves. Also they will be more likely to stay in business due to the recurring business so you will not have to fear a mature yet useful product going away because their demand dries up. Subscription aligns objectives. They want your continued business and you want that a product that does something you need is not abandoned when you reach a point where upgrades do more harm than good.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    > you will not have to fear a mature yet useful product going away because their demand dries up. Now you have to fear it much more. With perpetual licenses, you never lose access to your work and your files. Maybe you have to keep a computer working with current version of Windows, because the software does not work with the next one. But you can continue using the software, well, in perpetuity. Many people are still using the last non-subscription version of Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. Some people are still using Lotus Agenda and WordPerfect. In contrast, with subscription software, if the company does not do well and goes out of business, or does moderately well and gets acquhired, or if for any reason loses interest in continuing providing the software, you get an email about their incredible journey and how proud they are and oh yeah, the service will stop working in 20 days and your files and years of work locked in a proprietary format will become inaccessible.
    - antaviana 6y ago
      Hopefully you will not have to reinstall your perpetual license application when the vendor activation server is long gone. Since the long term survival chances of businesses based on permanent licenses are a lot lower, then your odds will be better with freeware, open source or pirated software.
blackaspen 6y ago
This is annoying. I recently got a 3D printer that actually works (as opposed to one that requires endless tinkering) and I've been using SketchUp a lot lately. Just today I encountered an issue with some bad mesh and I was thinking "you know, I like this product, I might just give them money, at least I'll get a perpetual license out of it". This makes me reconsider that. I really think JetBrains went the right route here for their subscription/license and I was excited to see Trimble follow in their footsteps, until now. And also this marketing copy is just a giant slap in the face. Give me the numbers!
- avhon1 6y ago
  In my experience, Sketchup consistently produces poor STL meshes. The only solutions I've found are to import the meshes into Blender and repair them manually, or redesign the project in a different CAD program. (I've settled on Solvespace for my personal use.)
mojomark 6y ago
As one who has used SketchUp for many years (because it was free for Makers), and even bought a pro licence at one point, I can say with confidence that this product is NOT worth more than $25/yr. It's riddled with bugs and the resultant models are extremely unreliable in terms of precision. Even with Pro, you need to buy a ton of plugins to do things you would think would be pretty standard for a Pro license like rendering, animation, pipes from lines, etc (there isn't really a decent animation plugin either that isn't buggy). This is for making quick rough concept models only. For any serious engineering or 3D printing, I recommend Blender, Autodesk Inventor, or Solidworks. Do not waste your money on SkethUp. You will waste a lot of time working around bugs and you will need to buy extra pluggins to do basic tasks, many of which are barely supported by their owners (there are exceptions). It's a product that had great potential, but has simply devolved.
- starpilot 6y ago
  Onshape is made by former SW devs and is incredible. If you're used to professional CAD you'll feel right at home. Here's a stool I made (no login required): https://cad.onshape.com/documents/3a4dd47b03e073e4d7848163/w/4f496fb0c629a412ccfa5798/e/aca72e289f2c6252dc7c010a https://cad.onshape.com/documents/3a4dd47b03e073e4d7848163/w...
  - mojomark 6y ago
    Nice!
- staycoolboy 6y ago
  The UI, both mouse and gestures were really fantastic. SketchUp gravity points and gesture inference was exceptional. I've used it to get thoughts out quickly since 2013. I'd pay $25/yr for it. Although I've never 3D printed anything, I just find it intuitive and a fast sketchpad.
  - mojomark 6y ago
    Yup, agree. The UI and 3D orbit are one of the things I love best about sketchup. Inventor orbit drives me crazy - total PITA without a 3D mouse.
protomyth 6y ago
I guess for businesses the whole annual pricing is fine, if not preferred, but I wonder how many of these companies are killing any possibility of non-businesses buying their software. Maybe that's ok with them and they have some internal calculation that those people cost them more than they are worth. I hate subscriptions, for a lot of the reason others have said (ex. getting locked into a piece of software that holds my data hostage), but I got a few others. Its been a royal pain in the butt to have a bunch of subscriptions during this time. I have a lot more outgoing cash and living closer to the paycheck since others need the savings. Companies are just lazy about subscription scheduling. It must be paid on the first day of the month or a fixed day. For the most part, people pay rent on the first. I wonder how many creators on Paetron would make more money if the timing could be changed. Let's say you have a product that is used by seniors in the USA. You might want to seriously consider doing a bit of work an allowing them to schedule to pay you on the third Wednesday of the month or the Thursday following the third Wednesday of the month. The common refrain is that you shouldn't be buying product X if this is a problem for you. Well, maybe, but dips like this are a pain and not getting into a situation where accidents happen would be nice. Accidents resulting from a bank fee is just a pain. The other problem is now you are a Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Utility, and Rent competitor. There is a big difference between a one-time purchase and signing up for a continuing cost along with all the others.
ohazi 6y ago
I'm so tired of this bullshit. Fuck proprietary formats and fuck proprietary software. The only reliable, long-term way to guarantee that you'll have perpetual access to software that you rely on is for you to own a copy of the source for that software. We can have additional conversations about open source licenses and funding, but if you don't have the source, you will eventually be fucked.
- ur-whale 6y ago
  > The only reliable, long-term way to guarantee that you'll have perpetual access to software Wholeheartedly agree, but it's worse than that: it's not perpetual access to the software that matters, but perpetual access to your own damn work. Anything you create with proprietary tools is on a guaranteed path to bitrot and not being readable at some point int the near future.
randompwd 6y ago
> You can subscribe for a year, skip a year, renew every year — it’s up to you. Whatever you choose, you’ll always have the latest version with the newest features They may want to rework those sentences to be less absurdist. Those lines are more akin to "Cancel your subscription? - we'll still always give you the latest version! All bits must go!!"
mgamache 6y ago
This is of course driven by the desire to have predictable and steady revenue. It's easier to plan and resource, but I would also say it's easier to coast for a mature product. If you need to push a release to generate a revenue influx, you would be more motivated to deliver. However, in the case of a mature product each feature will probably have diminishing returns. For the user this makes the incentive to skip an upgrade tempting, so locking them into a sub model while there's still leverage is a strategy.
ur-whale 6y ago
My prediction: there will very soon be exactly two buckets for Desktop apps: 1) open-source 2) subscription
fmajid 6y ago
I didn’t realize the Trimble GPS company made 3D modeling software. I am in the market for some since I got a 3D printer to go beyond TinkerCad, hopefully less overwhelming than Blender. Subscription pricing is an absolute deal-breaker as far as I am concerned, so I am glad to learn this so I can avoid SketchUp. I have largely switched over from Adobe CS to Affinity (only Lightroom remains tricky to migrate from, even though I’ve done 4 DAM migrations before).
AbraKdabra 6y ago
SketchUp died the day it was bought, I mean, it's awesome for its purpose and I've been using it for +12 years, but it lost the magical essence from when it was owned and made really great by Google.
jdechko 6y ago
Anyone know of any alternatives for Architectural Modeling? Preferably in the same price range with MacOS compatibility.
- profsnuggles 6y ago
  I don't do architectural modeling, I build furniture, but check out bricscad.https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/ https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/ I describe it to people as if AutoCAD and Sketchup had a baby. I bought it because it was a reasonable priced CAD with linux support, but it has gotten really amazing in the last few releases. They even released a stripped down free version with a more sketchup like interface called BricsCAD shape.
  - jdechko 6y ago
    Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it looks more like an alternative to AutoCAD than Sketchup. It’s only a side gig so it’s not critical at the moment.
igammarays 6y ago
First software ate the world. Then capitalism ate software, as it degenerated into rent-seeking. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
gurjeet 6y ago
Serious question. Why would I learn Sketchup when I can invest the same time in learning Blender [1] and get much higher ROI? [1]: https://www.blender.org/ https://www.blender.org/

60 points by tech234a 6y ago

I think all these companies rely on /captive audiences/. ie people who have invested in their product already, and they can somehow "up sell" them the subscribtion for a while and it sounds like a GREAT plan. However, any 'new' customer will not let themselves be trapped. It's happening with Adobe Photoshop and stuff, where they've been skinning their customer base for years, but quite frankly who would now as a new potiential customer decide to shackle themselves to that? I know quite a few people who will use inferior tools JUST so they don't have to hook up to Adobe blood-suck. Say Adobe Lightroom. Super product, but updates started to slow down and slow down and WOW now look it's all ONLINE baby for a price. I bought all updates until LR6, but now I know it's a lot cheaper to archive my machine with LR6 in a corner and use it for my photo edit than switching to the 'super value online thingy' for $$$/year. I don't use it that much to want that, and next time I want to use it, it actually might be incompatible with /whatever is in my chain of hardware/ anyway. I'm sad to say Sketchup is doing this, if they had a $100 upgrade price every year or so, I'd pay happily -- however here's lies the other main problem: these companies don't WANT to invest in R&D enough to have a 'valid' reason to have a new major version every 12-18 months, they actually think people will just keep paying. Well guess what, perhaps some people will, but no NEW people will. In the case of sketchup, whatever the marketing blurbs have spattered about, NOTHING IS NEW for like 10 years, I mean, they try to add 'hooks' here and there, but the main program is exactly the same, same bugs for that long. I suspect the devs who know how to do matrix multiplication have long left after google dumped the product, and they are now left with a handful of webheads. Do I want to pay for that? Hmm wait until I clean the coffee off the front my t-shirt.

roywiggins 6y ago
I'm still on Lightroom 5, I bought it years ago and that's where all my photos live. If I'd been forced into a subscription the total cost would have been many multiples of what I paid. I don't rent my camera for years on end- why would I rent the software that organizes all my photos?
- StillBored 6y ago
  I agree and there are pieces of software I've only purchased once and have used for decades. But that also creates a bit of an incentive not to worry to much about quality. After all, selling you a fixed progress bar in the next version gives people an incentive to upgrade. Its really to bad, that paying for software isn't more about rewarding good behavior.
mardifoufs 6y ago
Agree on all points but I'd be surprised if sketch up had a captive audience? It's not like adobe that basically just had to put a fence around the herd, they basically just closed the doors with no one inside. Unless a lot has a changed I remember sketch up barely working much less being used by professionals? it's very weird to make their product less accessible at this stage. Edit: to clarify I'm not saying you can't be professional and use sketchup, it's more that it's hard to really pull the subscription bait on switch on non corporate users on a niche product like this. Especially a niche that has alternatives.Maybe sketchup is actually used in business now though.
fmajid 6y ago
I have two LR6 licenses, so 4 computers (my desktop, my wife’s laptop, my laptop and one spare). The second license I bought less than a year ago (DVD from B&H, I was surprised it was still available for sale). With DNG converter, it even works reasonably well with my newer cameras (Nikon Z7 and Fuji X-T4, my Ricoh GRIII being supported natively). At some point it will stop working with macOS the way CS6 did, but I also flipped the bozo bit on Apple so my plan is to switch to Linux and DarkTable, which is making great strides.

monadic2 6y ago

Is anyone aware analyses of how this affects a company, their employees, their products? I find it very difficult to reason about value with subscription services, especially when the costs are even more divorced from labor than normal.

som33 6y ago
Subscription software is just a way to fleece gullible people, most software before mass internet penetration allowed stealing software (I refuse to call software as a subscription a rational thing for 99% of software). Is just a way for companies to sell you the same shit repackaged with only minimal effort. You don't seem to grasp the fundamental principle of a corporation is to give you the LEAST possible service for the highest possible price. AKA it's fuck you I got mine. 99% of the time Software as a service preys on gullible people and flaws in your psychology you aren't aware of. Best to stay away. Piracy actually put pressure on companies to innovate because you could get the complete version for free there was some incentive to improve the product to make it better than the pirate version, as strange as that sounds. Piracy is actually good for competition because most people are honest, if that wasn't the case Microsoft, EA, Valve, etc couldn't have become rich pre-internet where it was trivially easy to pirate everything by just copying the files. Modern DRM is literally holding files hostage using the internet as a dongle and using encryption. So no software as a service preys on gullible people to sell you last years with minor tweaks at inflated prices.
- monadic2 6y ago
  I tend to agree (hence why I commented), but I was curious if there was any methodology out there for figuring out things like margins and man hours per subscription cycle—I am fairly illiterate in reading through quarterly releases, for instance, and I'm not even sure if this thing is required to be reported.
  - som33 6y ago
    Software is largely enormous margin in an era of increasing drm and encryption because they can delay piracy indefinitely like on mobile with client-server gacha games. Check out the revenue for mobile, it's insane because it preys on mass stupidity and tech illiteracy. https://newzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Newzoo-2019-Global-Games-Market-per-Segment.png https://newzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Newzoo-2019-Gl... Either way many segments of software you can be sure are making insane profits like Overwatch, league of legends with selling flags for skins. The internet has given tech companies 24/7 access to the super rich, the super gullible and super mentally ill. Think about that for a second, before the internet people with brainless spending habits had no direct access to companies they got their products through intermediaries. The internet is a game changer for software companies because they can trap software inside "the world sized PC" we call the internet. The internet remember, is the worlds biggest motherboard, and whoever programs the motherboard owns the motherboard. That's how we ended up with steam drm, uplay, origin, etc. We've been getting hacked software and slaughtered on the privacy freedom front because the average consumer is retard level stupid when it comes to technology. Many software companies are getting away with the crime of the century. I'll see if I can't poke around and find some helpful guides for you to decode corporate speak.

WhatIsDukkha 6y ago

For many people its likely that just learning some Blender is a good choice these days - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=using+blender+2.8+like+sketchup&page=&utm_source=opensearch https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=using+blender+2... Being able to work in 3d is like a superpower that is just laying there waiting for you :)

vatys 6y ago

I've been using the free SketchUp (now SketchupMake) for many years, and it seems that no longer exists. I think it's been replaced with a new web-only free version. I found it to be pretty nice for simple woodworking and home projects, with a rather intuitive interface. My use was so casual and infrequent that I never really considered the paid version. Is there a good alternative (free or reasonably priced paid) for very simple and casual 3D modeling?

chabes 6y ago
Tinkercad is free. It’s even simpler than sketchup. Might be what you’re looking for. https://tinkercad.com/ https://tinkercad.com/
- ab_testing 6y ago
  TinkerCad is owned by AutoDesk. So I would not be surprised if it ends up in a similar situation as Sketchup. If you want a totally free product that is also open source - your 2 options are 1. Freecad https://www.freecadweb.org/ https://www.freecadweb.org/ 2. Blender https://www.blender.org/ https://www.blender.org/
avhon1 6y ago
I've found Solvespace to be a very nice OSS alternative to Sketchup for 3D printing. Perhaps it's good for woodworking, too. http://solvespace.com/index.pl http://solvespace.com/index.pl Here's a good tutorial: https://www.farwire.net/SolveSpace-LearningGuide.htm https://www.farwire.net/SolveSpace-LearningGuide.htm

runxel 6y ago

It is really hard to read through all that marketing nonsense. Not sure if I should cry or burst out in tears from laughing. In any case I can't stand all that false statements. Let's take this one for example: > Subscription demands constant improvement of our product and enables us to make $Product better for you — faster. In fact, the opposite is the case! Just look at Adobe. Or maybe CAD/BIM products, like Revit from Autodesk. The only thing that was new in this years version was slanted walls (!). Something competitors have for ~20 years already. So for me subscription basically is equivalent with the opposite. As soon companies decided to switch from the possibility to let me buy their software, as in "I own this thing and I can use it indefinitely." to "rent" their software, progress came to a grinding halt most times. The reason why this doesn't work like in the PR statement above is the way things work in real life. First you lock them customers in: all their files are now in your proprietary format. The presumption from above is, that you won't renew you subscription when you don't like the new yearly version – but then you can no longer access your files you need, since you do business! So cancelling of subscriptions basically never happens, turning your company into a gold mine. Yearly realases are bad btw and nobody likes them. Except shareholdes maybe.

buserror 6y ago
Completely agree here. I think subscribtions are bad for customers, AND THE DEVELOPERS too. Basically companies cut down on R&D instead of pushing on R&D to gain new upgrade and customers fees. I bought GraphicConverter [1] a zillion years ago, and I just upgraded to their v11, and so I paid them probably more than I've ever paid any other software -- BUT, they always come up with a list of improvement 5 pages long, and I've been using that stuff on/off for 20+ years. I have no problems pushing money their way, I know where that money is going ultimately. It certainly doesn't go in shareholder or marketing drone's pocket. [1]: https://www.lemkesoft.de/en/products/graphicconverter/ https://www.lemkesoft.de/en/products/graphicconverter/
- api 6y ago
  This is driven by the shift toward valuing companies entirely on recurrent revenue. I've been told that non-recurrent revenue is meaningless and is often ignored. Its just the latest business fad.

smnrchrds 6y ago

So they are going from 700$ for perpetual license to 300$ per year subscription. How on earth are they framing it as a net benefit for their customers?

antaviana 6y ago
Probably the quality of their product will increase because they will not have the pressure to engage the yearly upgrade circus, adding dubious features just to justify upgrading and competing with themselves. Also they will be more likely to stay in business due to the recurring business so you will not have to fear a mature yet useful product going away because their demand dries up. Subscription aligns objectives. They want your continued business and you want that a product that does something you need is not abandoned when you reach a point where upgrades do more harm than good.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  > you will not have to fear a mature yet useful product going away because their demand dries up. Now you have to fear it much more. With perpetual licenses, you never lose access to your work and your files. Maybe you have to keep a computer working with current version of Windows, because the software does not work with the next one. But you can continue using the software, well, in perpetuity. Many people are still using the last non-subscription version of Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. Some people are still using Lotus Agenda and WordPerfect. In contrast, with subscription software, if the company does not do well and goes out of business, or does moderately well and gets acquhired, or if for any reason loses interest in continuing providing the software, you get an email about their incredible journey and how proud they are and oh yeah, the service will stop working in 20 days and your files and years of work locked in a proprietary format will become inaccessible.
  - antaviana 6y ago
    Hopefully you will not have to reinstall your perpetual license application when the vendor activation server is long gone. Since the long term survival chances of businesses based on permanent licenses are a lot lower, then your odds will be better with freeware, open source or pirated software.

blackaspen 6y ago

This is annoying. I recently got a 3D printer that actually works (as opposed to one that requires endless tinkering) and I've been using SketchUp a lot lately. Just today I encountered an issue with some bad mesh and I was thinking "you know, I like this product, I might just give them money, at least I'll get a perpetual license out of it". This makes me reconsider that. I really think JetBrains went the right route here for their subscription/license and I was excited to see Trimble follow in their footsteps, until now. And also this marketing copy is just a giant slap in the face. Give me the numbers!

avhon1 6y ago
In my experience, Sketchup consistently produces poor STL meshes. The only solutions I've found are to import the meshes into Blender and repair them manually, or redesign the project in a different CAD program. (I've settled on Solvespace for my personal use.)

mojomark 6y ago

As one who has used SketchUp for many years (because it was free for Makers), and even bought a pro licence at one point, I can say with confidence that this product is NOT worth more than $25/yr. It's riddled with bugs and the resultant models are extremely unreliable in terms of precision. Even with Pro, you need to buy a ton of plugins to do things you would think would be pretty standard for a Pro license like rendering, animation, pipes from lines, etc (there isn't really a decent animation plugin either that isn't buggy). This is for making quick rough concept models only. For any serious engineering or 3D printing, I recommend Blender, Autodesk Inventor, or Solidworks. Do not waste your money on SkethUp. You will waste a lot of time working around bugs and you will need to buy extra pluggins to do basic tasks, many of which are barely supported by their owners (there are exceptions). It's a product that had great potential, but has simply devolved.

starpilot 6y ago
Onshape is made by former SW devs and is incredible. If you're used to professional CAD you'll feel right at home. Here's a stool I made (no login required): https://cad.onshape.com/documents/3a4dd47b03e073e4d7848163/w/4f496fb0c629a412ccfa5798/e/aca72e289f2c6252dc7c010a https://cad.onshape.com/documents/3a4dd47b03e073e4d7848163/w...
- mojomark 6y ago
  Nice!
staycoolboy 6y ago
The UI, both mouse and gestures were really fantastic. SketchUp gravity points and gesture inference was exceptional. I've used it to get thoughts out quickly since 2013. I'd pay $25/yr for it. Although I've never 3D printed anything, I just find it intuitive and a fast sketchpad.
- mojomark 6y ago
  Yup, agree. The UI and 3D orbit are one of the things I love best about sketchup. Inventor orbit drives me crazy - total PITA without a 3D mouse.

protomyth 6y ago

I guess for businesses the whole annual pricing is fine, if not preferred, but I wonder how many of these companies are killing any possibility of non-businesses buying their software. Maybe that's ok with them and they have some internal calculation that those people cost them more than they are worth. I hate subscriptions, for a lot of the reason others have said (ex. getting locked into a piece of software that holds my data hostage), but I got a few others. Its been a royal pain in the butt to have a bunch of subscriptions during this time. I have a lot more outgoing cash and living closer to the paycheck since others need the savings. Companies are just lazy about subscription scheduling. It must be paid on the first day of the month or a fixed day. For the most part, people pay rent on the first. I wonder how many creators on Paetron would make more money if the timing could be changed. Let's say you have a product that is used by seniors in the USA. You might want to seriously consider doing a bit of work an allowing them to schedule to pay you on the third Wednesday of the month or the Thursday following the third Wednesday of the month. The common refrain is that you shouldn't be buying product X if this is a problem for you. Well, maybe, but dips like this are a pain and not getting into a situation where accidents happen would be nice. Accidents resulting from a bank fee is just a pain. The other problem is now you are a Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Utility, and Rent competitor. There is a big difference between a one-time purchase and signing up for a continuing cost along with all the others.

ohazi 6y ago

I'm so tired of this bullshit. Fuck proprietary formats and fuck proprietary software. The only reliable, long-term way to guarantee that you'll have perpetual access to software that you rely on is for you to own a copy of the source for that software. We can have additional conversations about open source licenses and funding, but if you don't have the source, you will eventually be fucked.

ur-whale 6y ago
> The only reliable, long-term way to guarantee that you'll have perpetual access to software Wholeheartedly agree, but it's worse than that: it's not perpetual access to the software that matters, but perpetual access to your own damn work. Anything you create with proprietary tools is on a guaranteed path to bitrot and not being readable at some point int the near future.

randompwd 6y ago

> You can subscribe for a year, skip a year, renew every year — it’s up to you. Whatever you choose, you’ll always have the latest version with the newest features They may want to rework those sentences to be less absurdist. Those lines are more akin to "Cancel your subscription? - we'll still always give you the latest version! All bits must go!!"

mgamache 6y ago

This is of course driven by the desire to have predictable and steady revenue. It's easier to plan and resource, but I would also say it's easier to coast for a mature product. If you need to push a release to generate a revenue influx, you would be more motivated to deliver. However, in the case of a mature product each feature will probably have diminishing returns. For the user this makes the incentive to skip an upgrade tempting, so locking them into a sub model while there's still leverage is a strategy.

ur-whale 6y ago

My prediction: there will very soon be exactly two buckets for Desktop apps: 1) open-source 2) subscription

fmajid 6y ago

I didn’t realize the Trimble GPS company made 3D modeling software. I am in the market for some since I got a 3D printer to go beyond TinkerCad, hopefully less overwhelming than Blender. Subscription pricing is an absolute deal-breaker as far as I am concerned, so I am glad to learn this so I can avoid SketchUp. I have largely switched over from Adobe CS to Affinity (only Lightroom remains tricky to migrate from, even though I’ve done 4 DAM migrations before).

AbraKdabra 6y ago

SketchUp died the day it was bought, I mean, it's awesome for its purpose and I've been using it for +12 years, but it lost the magical essence from when it was owned and made really great by Google.

jdechko 6y ago

Anyone know of any alternatives for Architectural Modeling? Preferably in the same price range with MacOS compatibility.

profsnuggles 6y ago
I don't do architectural modeling, I build furniture, but check out bricscad.https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/ https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/ I describe it to people as if AutoCAD and Sketchup had a baby. I bought it because it was a reasonable priced CAD with linux support, but it has gotten really amazing in the last few releases. They even released a stripped down free version with a more sketchup like interface called BricsCAD shape.
- jdechko 6y ago
  Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it looks more like an alternative to AutoCAD than Sketchup. It’s only a side gig so it’s not critical at the moment.

igammarays 6y ago

First software ate the world. Then capitalism ate software, as it degenerated into rent-seeking. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

gurjeet 6y ago

Serious question. Why would I learn Sketchup when I can invest the same time in learning Blender [1] and get much higher ROI? [1]: https://www.blender.org/ https://www.blender.org/