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Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

214 points by CrankyBear 6y ago

markgavalda 6y ago
We've only had problems with snap so far, constantly. Kudos to Mint for doing the right thing for their users.
- CrankyBear 6y ago
  It's actually worked well for me. But, I never want to see a program on my Linux boxes automatically running root over a network connection for any reason without my specific say so, never mind just to install Chromium.
- simosx 6y ago
  What problems did you have? The dislike on snap packages looks to be too emotional. It resembles the issue with people feeling that 5G affects their health. Obviously, it does not. But the belief is so intense that they get actual observable symptoms.
henriquez 6y ago
I dumped Ubuntu over Snap. Maybe I’m just ignorant but it seems like allowing developers to push software updates without any review invites the same sorts of issues we’ve seen on npm, with very high risks for certain use cases. I don’t want that kind of relationship with my OS, forced updates are why I ditched Windows in the first place. Aside from the philosophical concerns I ran into a lot of glitches with various snap packages, frequently resulting in lost or corrupted data. And the sandbox approach prevented certain filesystem tweaking I previously took for granted. Overall I didn’t see the benefit and didn’t have time to futz with it. I’m curious if there are any distros with a recent version of Gnome and also a sane package manager.
- schoolornot 6y ago
  > forced updates are why I ditched Windows in the first place Samsung has followed suit w/ Android. Once an update is available, the user can defer it three times before the phone is rebooted. Not even Apple pulls this crap.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - guug 6y ago
    As a short term solution, you can use netguard and always have it run in lockdown mode. It works on most phones and doesn't require root. You can use it to whitelist app access to the internet (inc. blocking samsung and google play updates). It's also open source. In the long term, just avoid samsung products that don't respect your authority as the owner.
- techntoke 6y ago
  Definitely try an Arch-based distro. I run Arch myself, but I've heard good things about Manjaro.
  - henriquez 6y ago
    Doesn’t arch also allow arbitrary package upgrades straight from the developers? Again I’m pretty ignorant but my impression looking at it previously was there isn’t any sort of “peer review” by repo maintainers.
    - Sevaris 6y ago
      You're never forced to update. I'm don't even think Arch natively supports automatic updates. You can also tell pacman to skip a package from being updated if you're aware of a problematic update but you want to update the rest of your system. And yes, Arch takes in the upstream vanilla packages, though there are testing phases before updates reach stable repos. I'm not sure any of this is a bad thing. It also means you don't have to wait 6-12 months for the newest version.
      - dathinab 6y ago
        I think what he/she means is that core maintainers (or AUR maintainers) might be able to change a package without another core maintainer (or AUR maintainer) reviewing it.
        Sevaris 6y ago
        Afaik, upstream packages aren't changed by Arch maintainers. It's the whole point of using Arch. And if you're using AUR, you'd better be checking the PKGBUILD (because no, it isn't verified by anybody). At the very least, you need to be checking where the package is being downloaded from.
        dathinab 6y ago
        The PKGBUILD of packages in the official repository can be changed, which people theoretically could use to inject malware. That's what I meant.
- karatestomp 6y ago
  Launch times and (silly, but it really bugged me) pollution of my `df` output drove me away.
  - ahartmetz 6y ago
    Cluttering up df and mount output is a real problem. They are useful tools - cluttering their output makes them much less convenient / more time-consuming to use. I have about 8 mounts for snap and like 15 for cgroups here. And actually about 10 others that I don't remember seeing before at all. pstore? securityfs? tracefs? debugfs?
  - bxparks 6y ago
    Yup, the output of df became so cluttered that it became useless. So I created this alias: > alias df='df -x tmpfs -x squashfs -x devtmpfs'
    - edoceo 6y ago
      Adding to my dotfiles, thx!
    - apple4ever 6y ago
      Oh my this is awesome! Thank you. So much better.
    - omertuchfeld 6y ago
      Here's one that doesn't hide the snaps but but still keeps it not cluttered (relies on ripgrep) : function df { OUTPUT=$(/usr/bin/df $@) snaps=$(echo ${OUTPUT} | rg "^.+/snap/(.+)/.+$" -r '$1' | tr '\n' ' ') printf "\x1b[33m\x1b[1mFILTERING SNAP MOUNTPOINTS:\x1b[0m\x1b[33m\n$snaps\x1b[0m\n\n" >&2 echo $OUTPUT | grep -v "/snap/" }
- hamaluik 6y ago
  I've been using Manjaro for about a year now, after also getting fed up with Ubuntu. It is based on Arch, but just as easy to set up and get running as Ubuntu. I find its package management sane enough for my day-to-day use, and though I install packages from all over I have yet to have anything break on me. I can definitely recommend it.
- ccmcarey 6y ago
  I dumped snapd because of the maintainers absolutely refusing to allow the users to customize the update schedule, or even disable automatic updates at all. Reading the thread with the discussion on it, seems there was real contempt towards letting the user decide not to update their packages.
  - simosx 6y ago
    https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date
    - SirYandi 6y ago
      I didn't see anything about completely disabling automatic updates there. Closest I could find was: "After a refresh, the next refresh can be delayed by up to 60 days, after which a refresh will be performed regardless of the refresh.hold value."
      - phatfish 6y ago
        With windows update the trick since MS enforced a similar update policy is to change the user the Windows Update service runs under to an account that doest have the required permissions. Not sure if that would work with Ubuntu though ;)
        em-bee 6y ago
        i am surprised that this is possible under windows. for ubuntu, it should be possible to disable the daemon that runs the update checks. at worst by hacking a script where the process is started.
      - scoot_718 6y ago
        There's a solution you're not seeing https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/how-to-completely-remove-snap/19395 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/how-to-completely-remove-sna...
- somewhereoutth 6y ago
  Mint!
- simosx 6y ago
  > Maybe I’m just ignorant but it seems like allowing developers to push software updates without any review When you create a snap package and post it to the Snap Store, you only get the default limited rights for your snap. For example, your application is not able to access external disks. But if your application has a real case to do so, then you need to request to have that access added to your snap.
- beefbroccoli 6y ago
  haven't had that issue for years with npm/yarn, thanks to lockfiles.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  It could be worse. Software push is how browser distribute extensions. And they are ridden with spyware [0]. Pull by maintainers, deferred rollout, veto and rollback might what saves us yet. [1] https://blocked.cdn.mozilla.net/ https://blocked.cdn.mozilla.net/
canada_dry 6y ago
Tip: if you're wondering what SNAP apps are already installed in your system: ls -l /var/lib/snapd/snaps
- simosx 6y ago
  You can also snap list or have a look into `/snap/`. The directory `/var/lib/snapd/snaps/` shows the cached .snap packages, including the recent versions in case you want to revert to a previous version.
Skunkleton 6y ago
I personally don't packaging apps in a sandbox, its a violation of the basic idea of writing tools that do one thing well. Still, snap gets lots of flack, but I don't see the same for flatpak. Is there some advantage to flatpak that I am missing, or is it just than Ubuntu has pushed snaps too hard?
- kemayo 6y ago
  It sounds like the objection isn't technical -- sandboxed apps are perfectly fine -- but rather to how Canonical is trying to change package behavior alongside the transition. Specifically, they're forcing you to use them for some packages behind the scenes, and restricting what you can do with those packages as a result: > "In the Ubuntu 20.04 package base, the Chromium package is indeed empty and acting, without your consent, as a backdoor by connecting your computer to the Ubuntu Store. Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can't audit them, hold them, modify them, or even point snap to a different store. You've as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it installs itself without asking you."
  - simosx 6y ago
    The Mint maintainer went out of his way to react in bad faith. The chromium transition was announced in October 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu was not able to maintain chromium as a deb package, and chromium is not the default browser in Ubuntu. Therefore, it has been packaged as a snap package. Since there is no longer an apt package, what should happen when you "sudo apt install chromium-browser"? The usable decision was to install the snap package of Chromium instead, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... The snap package of Chromium has been in testing for two years already. The snap package page is https://snapcraft.io/chromium https://snapcraft.io/chromium You can view the installation log, with the list of operating systems that have installed it.
- 6y ago
Darmody 6y ago
I can understand Canonical pushing for snaps. It's their product and they want it to succeed. That said I hate their dirty ways. I find it even morally wrong. How can "sudo apt install chromium-browser" not install the apt package but install instead a snap? How I, as a user and also as a professional, trust Ubuntu if when I use their package manager I'm being tricked? I don't use Windows for a reason, more than one actually. I've been using Ubuntu even with all the "weird" stuff Canonical has been doing over the years but I think this is the nail in the coffin. Right now I'm using 20.04 but as soon as I finish some work I have left I'll install a fresh new distro.
- jimhefferon 6y ago
  What distro? I use Ubuntu because I just want an OS, not a hobby.
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    Me too, but I'm staying on 18 for now because 20 breaks my workflows.
    - pmontra 6y ago
      I'm planning to upgrade so you have my attention. What did 20 change to break your workflow?
      - fxtentacle 6y ago
        Replacing the chromium apt with an empty package installing a random self-updating snap. In other words, pinning a specific chromium version, for example for selenium automation, is now broken.
        pmontra 6y ago
        I didn't think about that. Thanks.
  - 6y ago
Finnucane 6y ago
I've been using Mint now for several years and been satisfied with it. I was afraid that the Ubuntu's snap mishegas would force me to move elsewhere, but this is the message I was hoping to hear from the Mint team.
- simosx 6y ago
  The Mint maintainer was really unprofessional in his announcement. It is OK to feel strongly about something, but using words like `backdoor` is really bad. With snap packages you get companies like Microsoft to deliver a native package for Skype, Jetbrain to deliver their whole developer portfolio, Spotify their music thing, etc. They can do so because they are basing the work in a common, stable runtime.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    > It is OK to feel strongly about something, but using words like `backdoor` is really bad. Okay, but... It is a backdoor. A user trying to install a deb get snap shoved down their throat. > They can do so because they are basing the work in a common, stable runtime. And none of that requires taking control from the user.
  - kjs3 6y ago
    "I'm the HN shill for snap, posting dozens of times about how awesome snap is in a single thread, and since the Mint maintainer doesn't think snap is as awesome as I do, I'll call him unprofessional". FTFY.
  - Finnucane 6y ago
    They could also do that with flatpak or appimage.
- nihil75 6y ago
  Pretty sure you could still install Snap if you wanted to. It just won't come pre-installed?
adamzochowski 6y ago
snap has problems that exist for years. It will upgrade a running application without telling the user. Then it will remount all folders in use by the running application in read only mode. As such, your chromium will start misbehaving, crashing, extensions will start failing, it won't save cookies or remember tabs after restart. DBeaver won't be saving your .sql scripts. Snap developers think users are precogs. That users without any foreshadowing will close application before snap silently upgrades it behind the scenes. Also Snap does really weird things as a container. I run multiple VPNs each within own network namespace. So something as simple as : as root: ip netns exec myVPN chromium fails with execv failed: Permission denied Both of these problems exists for years.
- simosx 6y ago
  Snap support is evolving. There are keys to configure when, and if, you get updates, https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date The total Linux desktop installation base is around 2.7%. Without automation, the Linux desktop does not look like it will attract any significant number of Windows users.
  - jnurmine 6y ago
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but one cannot hold off updating the snaps indefinitely. Thus there is no "if". One gets a maximum of 60 days, that is all. Through a snap proxy it's possible to hold off longer, but then the proxy needs to talk with the snap store periodically. Why people are upset is, I believe, that Canonical forces people to accept any and all changes to the installed software, without being able to guarantee perfect backwards compatibility for all upgrades. Obviously, neither Canonical nor anyone else can make that kind of promise for all software out there. Canonical should not force updates on people; let people take care of backwards compatibility; let users turn the auto-update on and off and allow users also to freeze package versions (and their system configuration), if the users so please. Also, not sure I understand the point about automation. There is automation already today in Ubuntu through autoupdating .deb packages. It is nothing inherently new in Snaps. One problem with measuring Linux desktop installation base is that Linux users are often the people who turn off telemetry, call-home, employ DNT, run ad blockers, run third party script blockers, and so on. I wonder how much this skews the results.
fxtentacle 6y ago
The main reason why I use Linux for some of my work is reproducibility. A docker image with the same apt packages installed in it will work the same every time. Snap breaks this. A snap package can update itself whenever it wants and then you the user are just screwed when things don't work together anymore. So in effect, snap breaks the main benefit of Linux for deployment and the reason why I use Linux in the first place. Every since they started with ads and affiliate links, I've been sceptical of Ubuntu. But Ubuntu 18 is still used as the base image for many docker deployments. I predict that this will change with Ubuntu 20, exactly because the snaps have made Ubuntu 20 unusable for reliable docker deployments. I'm glad that mint is stepping in to provide a viable alternative.
- adambyrtek 6y ago
  I agree in principle, but it's worth pointing out that Snap is designed for end-user applications, so it's unlikely to be used on a server or in a Docker image built for deployment.
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    I agree in general, but my work involves website automaton, meaning the now empty chromium package. Plus I want my workstation to be as similar as possible to the deployment container to make debugging easier. So if I feel uncomfortable using Ubuntu 20 for my workstation, I should probably switch my deployment docker base image, too.
    - adambyrtek 6y ago
      Makes sense, I personally don't mind snaps for proprietary applications (mostly Slack and Spotify) which are otherwise hard to discover and keep up to date on Linux, but I don't understand why Canonical would force this for Chromium which is already packaged and open source.
    - simosx 6y ago
      Have a look at LXD. It creates system containers that are based on runtimes of most Linux distributions. You can stick to specific versions and are certain that those do not change.
flatfilefan 6y ago
Snap for me means Firefox suddenly says “I won’t open a new tab until you update me and I will drop all tabs on restart”. It also means cached content and configs in many new obscure places. It doesn’t mean any visible improvement so far. So hey, kudos Mint and hey, Ubuntu stop that already.
- simosx 6y ago
  There is a snap package for Firefox, but in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS, Firefox comes from the Deb package. Did you switch to the snap package yourself?
- slim 6y ago
  Firefox does that in debian stable. but it's supposed to restore your tabs like they were
  - lottin 6y ago
    Since when?
  - adamnew123456 6y ago
    That should only happen if you update from underneath it by doing an upgrade though, which is entirely at your discretion with apt. The snap equivalent is obligatory. That said, the update auto-restore almost always works in my experience. I've been running the nightly channel for a while (which updates once or twice a day) and it rarely eats tabs.
- morsch 6y ago
  It doesn't auto-restore my session either, but I can usually (always?) get it back using the "Restore previous session" item from the menu. (Also, like the siblings say, that's not a snap thing. If I understand it right, snap might just auto-restart without the courtesy "I can't open a new tab" message.)
- kyrofa 6y ago
  Uh yeah, that's just Firefox in general, from a snap or a deb.
pkaye 6y ago
> Mint never shipped snapd, Snap's daemon program or any snaps, but moving ahead, in Linux Mint 20, "Chromium won't be an empty package which installs snapd behind your back. It will be an empty package, which tells you why it's empty and tells you where to look to get Chromium yourself." Further, APT will forbid snapd from installing. Can't they just replace the Chromimum package with the one in Debian?
- simosx 6y ago
  The Chromium situation has been explained already in 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... There is no deb package in Ubuntu, so the system is setup to transparently install the snap package.
- dathinab 6y ago
  Not sure if they could, but: Then they would need to review all Ubuntu packages for snap injection and overlay them. Sure that might be doable automatically but is a bit brittle. It also means the user wouldn't learn what is going on.
  - pkaye 6y ago
    They are already doing a special case for Chromimum to tell the user why its empty and where to get it. Instead they could provide a working copy based on the debian deb package.
    - dathinab 6y ago
      I understood it so that they are blocking snap generally instead of doing pretty package special handling.
etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS is currently super popular for servers. Any thoughts on whether 20.04 is a worthy upgrade for servers, or just a pain? Snaps in particular sound good for desktops but not servers.
- simosx 6y ago
  If you use LXD, then LXD is provided as a snap. Snap is currently the only packaging for LXD in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. I think the Ubuntu 20.04 runtime should be better than Ubuntu 18.04. More fixes, new features and updated versions of packages.
- kyrofa 6y ago
  There are definitely snaps that are useful on servers, like LXD and Nextcloud.
  - ccmcarey 6y ago
    Having them auto update and restart daemon services are not good for servers though.
    - kyrofa 6y ago
      I disagree. I like having Nextcloud auto-update, even if it results in a service restart. I just schedule that for a time of day that isn't very disruptive. As for LXD, restarting the LXD daemon doesn't effect the containers (they continue running).
      - ccmcarey 6y ago
        It's about having a choice though.
        kyrofa 6y ago
        Oh hey, I get it. That wasn't the point of the parent to which I was responding, though. I was merely trying to share that snaps are just as useful for server as for desktop, that's all.
chintan 6y ago
Hundreds of organizations, including ours, rely on Rocket.Chat for their internal messaging. It all went down when a release was pushed and snap decided to auto-update [1] I can imagine it resulted in a huge loss of productivity at all these orgs in the Covid era. Just learnt from this thread that apt-install will install snap! I'm running Ubuntu 18.04 + i3 (Dell Developer Edition) but will change to Debian. [1]. https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/issues/17628 https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/issues/17628
- simosx 6y ago
  You can control when to update, https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date
  - sakisv 6y ago
    But that's just part of the problem though. I want to be able to rely on my system and not have a chance 4 times a day for random things to break (the default frequency based on your link). The argument about "latest == safest" may have some validity when it comes to browsers, but for everything else a notification that there is a new version would be more than enough.
  - Andys 6y ago
    Would someone be able to tell me how to plain old turn it off? I still can't tell even after reading the docs
    - morsch 6y ago
      You can turn it off by replacing your operating system with another Linux distribution. As of 20.04 you also still have the option of removing Snap outright[1], as long as you don't need the software that is only provided via snap. Although apparently they are considering[2] adding the option to disable auto-updates. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 [2] https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/re-visiting-update-control-on-the-desktop/17170 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/re-visiting-update-control-on-t...
parvenu74 6y ago
I noticed that Mint is working on LMDE which uses Debian as its base directly without using Ubuntu; I wonder if this is one of the reasons motivating that project and what the other reasons are.
bad_user 6y ago
While I understand the concerns over Snap, you can't blame Canonical for trying, because lets be honest, rpm/deb packages are a mess. I see in the comments a complaint that you don't want the developers upgrading their apps whenever they want ... really? Because that's my number one complaint for debs/rpms too. You can't install specific versions, you can't install multiple versions side by side and installing a newer version of one package can break your system due to its dependencies. Snaps can't possibly be worse than this and they aren't. And on the server-side I understand wanting to review each updated package, but on your laptop, how often does one do that anyway? For the general population automatic upgrades are a net win. The same moaning happened when Firefox switched, following Chrome, to automatic updates and fast releases and people now love that, including me. You trusted the app developers as soon as you installed that app on your computer with full privileges. And most apps don't have reproducible builds, even if the app is open source, trusting the binary you're installing is also a leap of faith. Unless the OS can sandbox that app, installing any app is about trust in a brand and faith. And debs aren't sandboxed. When I switched to MacOS, 6 years ago, I missed Ubuntu's repository, I hated Homebrew, I hated installing apps by copying them from volumes mounted from .dmg files. But not anymore. I rarely have issues now. Experience could be improved of course, I sometimes want versioning, I want reproducible environments, which is why I'm experimenting with Nix (see https://nixos.org/ https://nixos.org/). The first thing I did on a fresh Ubuntu 18.04 LTS box, couple of months back? I searched for "Firefox Developer Edition" and failed to find a PPA for it or a beta channel that seems to be up to date. Speaking of which, people complain about Snap being insecure, however I've never seen an Ubuntu/Debian workstation that doesn't make use of insecure PPAs. Also packaging apps via DEB files is hard. I tried building DEBs for my server-side apps, but unless the process is automated via tools that are not language/platform agnostic, I found it hard, with documentation severely lacking. --- This is one big reason for why Docker is now the preferred distribution mechanism for self-hosted apps on Linux servers. It's very easy to create a Dockerfile and the result won't infect your system with crap. I have yet to try out Snaps, maybe some of the critiques are warranted, but it can't possibly be worse than the status quo. The only problem, a major one, is that yet again we've got no agreement between vendors. But that's sadly the Linux ecosystem, a genuine Tower of Babel.
- progval 6y ago
mrtweetyhack 6y ago
Thank you Mint
commoner 6y ago
Many applications packaged under Snap are still unusable on Fedora and Arch because Snap has a bug that renders tofu characters (□□□) instead of text: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-on-fedora-and-arch/12484 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-o... I'm not sure whether Linux Mint is also affected by this issue, but it's clear that Canonical doesn't perform quality assurance for Snap on any Linux distribution other than Ubuntu.
- simosx 6y ago
  The discussion pinpoints the issue in the fontconfig cache files. It is being worked on. The issue is not "snap packages only show tofu characters" but rather in some cases snap packages cannot access the system fonts, hence the squares.
  - commoner 6y ago
    This bug has not been addressed for almost a year, which is completely unacceptable when the Snapcraft homepage advertises that "Snaps work across Linux on any distribution or version." https://snapcraft.io/ https://snapcraft.io/
eberkund 6y ago
This appears to be an unpopular opinion, but I like snaps and Canonical's philosophy in some ways mimics that of Apple's where they care about usability over configurability. Snaps have been my preferred method of installation for a few years now. I really like how I know where the files are being installed to and if I uninstall the software it will be removed cleanly. I also like how for most software snaps contain the latest release of the software which has not been my experience with distro specific apt repos. I can even install beta, nightly or previous releases very easily using snap store channels. I've never experienced any package manager on any OS that has made it this easy. I've also developed about a half dozen snaps, some of them were open source contributions to existing software, others were my closed-source projects and one was some contract work for a third party who wanted to snap their existing software for easier distribution. And although there were some pain points, I found the process and YAML based manifest file to be far better than most tools. My only gripe with snaps at this time is that there is no system like PPAs so if you want to use snaps for your privately distributed app then you need to do it through Canonical and more advanced control features will cost you extra.
- lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
  I like the idea of Snap, but Flatpak seems to be a much better implementation.
  - commoner 6y ago
    Absolutely. The server-side implementation of Snap is closed source and the Snap Store is a single instance controlled solely by Canonical. Flatpak repositories are decentralized and can be hosted on private servers with flat-manager, which is FOSS: https://github.com/flatpak/flat-manager https://github.com/flatpak/flat-manager
    - m463 6y ago
      Right - it's a control/monetization strategy.
  - simosx 6y ago
_emacsomancer_ 6y ago
My number one complaint about Snaps is that they're not portable (despite being labelled "universal packages for Linux"): they start to work less well outside of Ubuntu, and they don't work at all unless you're running systemd. I find this slightly ridiculous given that Flatpaks really do work more universally - they don't require systemd - and they come out of Red Hat - the home of systemd.
- simosx 6y ago
  snapd is a service, therefore it requires an init system.
  - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
    So? systemd isn't the only daemon-manager.
    - simosx 6y ago
      Is the question whether snapd require an init, or whether snapd should be packaged to work with more init systems?
      - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
        The point is that a "universal packages for Linux" system shouldn't have a hard dependency on systemd in particular. systemd isn't Linux.
bouncycastle 6y ago
From reading the other comments, people just don't like having security updates done automatically - they'd like to have more control when they are performed. Kind of like in Windows, where your computer suddenly shuts down to apply a service pack while you were in the middle of an important World of Warcraft raid that you were planning for weeks. There's always a trade-off between keeping your system secure and being available. Most people don't like to trade off availability, and it makes sense.
- rrmm 6y ago
  I've seen more than one twitch streamer going into a big stream, get screwed by this. Of course, they should've known. But we've all made that mistake during a demo or presentation at some point or another. Worse yet, when you update ahead of time and drivers or other parts of update are incompatible. Stable configurations are important to a lot of people.
  - bouncycastle 6y ago
    Completely understandable. It would be great to have more control over how and when the updates are run.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  This is my read on the situation too. MS already solved this too: just make it difficult, but not impossible to turn off.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- kjs3 6y ago
  Unless you're on a corporate machine where they have some Group Policy to force updates, you absolutely can control when updates are performed. You might have to actually learn how to do that, but it's not like M$ makes it impossible.
tkuraku 6y ago
I have found flatpaks to be much better (they are much faster to startup), except that flatpak doesn't have an unconfined or "classic" mode like snaps. THis is especially annoying if you wanted to install vscode to access the system compiler, python, etc.
- akvadrako 6y ago
  I am planning to develop a solution to this VSCode issue soon - there are basically two ways to make it work: 1. Using platform or app flatpak extensions, one can plugin compilers and runtimes so they are available inside the sandbox. 2. One can add shims that launch programs outside the sandbox using flatpak-spawn --host.
rbanffy 6y ago
Snaps are a poor solution for the problem apt already solved years ago.
- simosx 6y ago
  "apt" packages are handmade. And they depend on hand-made dependencies. It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain packages like chromium, because they have too many dependencies, that have to be packaged individually. The "universe" repository has tens of thousands of packages. Do you know that a majority of them are not maintained because it is too much effort and not many helping hands?
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    So we have an automation problem. Building packages is needlessly inconvenient and the few hands we have are overwhelmed by the number of packages that need maintaining. And we "solve" it by allowing the inclusion of different, incompatible, versions of packages into even bigger packages. Sorry, but that's not a solution. It's the technical debt equivalent to payday lenders.
  - inshadows 6y ago
    Do not pretend that "apt" (.deb) packages require un-bundling dependencies. That's just policy decision of Debian. You could just create Chrome package and put everything in /opt/google-chrome or whatever root path you choose. Ubuntu could have lifted this policy.
AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
It's interesting how many distros built on top of Ubuntu are explicitly dropping snaps or throwing their support behind flatpaks: - Linux Mint - ElementaryOS - Pop!_OS Take a hint, Canonical. You guys made some great strides towards being less silo'd by dropping Unity and Mir in favor of vanilla GNOME + Wayland, but you're still all-in on snaps for some reason. Are the handful of proprietary software companies that want an easier installer for Linux really worth it?
- simosx 6y ago
  This polemic attitude is really bad for open-source. Snap packages are good, and such efforts may help get the Linux desktop rise over the 3%. Lenovo announced they are fully supporting Ubuntu desktop for two lines of computers.
  - AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
    Okay...so? Lenovo also announced they're going to certify some laptops for Fedora as well: https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/ https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-lapt... If you're suggesting that we all need to rally behind everything Canonical does because Ubuntu has the best shot of propelling Linux into the mainstream, I would say that's all the more reason to hold them accountable for decisions that the Linux community finds unpopular. Many don't like snaps. Don't force snaps on us through duplicitous means like the chromium installer. Why is that bad for open source?
    - simosx 6y ago
      Lenovo, in their announcement, they start by saying that they made the move because the Linux desktop stands at 2.7%. And they want in, in this 2.7% market. If the Linux desktop becomes a 5% market, or a 8% market, then it will open the floodgates to other companies offering support to desktop Linux. Source: https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-brings-linux-certification-to-thinkpad-and-thinkstation-workstation-portfolio-easing-deployment-for-developers-data-scientists/ https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-brin... What I see on HN is perpetual bitching and anti-Ubuntu sentiment. As if the Linux desktop is a zero-sum game. One wins and the rest are gone. In the harsh reality, if the Linux desktop gets like 5% or more, it will signal other companies to start supporting. The chromium issue has been around since October 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu cannot support a deb package because Chromium is huge in their dependencies and cannot provide timely updates. Therefore, there is only a snap package. And, what happens if the end-user tries the chromium browser? The system transparently installs the snap package instead of presenting an essay to explain the full background. Is it so difficult to say respectfully, "everyone do your thing to increase the marketshare of desktop Linux so that it eventually opens the floodgates of support". You cannot increase the Linux desktop marketshare by staying within the 2.7% of the Linux desktop. You just need to attract new Windows users, not steal Ubuntu users.
Ctd2xUvMAicg 6y ago
Pop OS [1] does something similar. Based on Ubuntu, but replaces snap with flatpak. You can apt-get packages like chromium from their PPA [2]. I'm very pleased with their developer centric approach. They also apply very nice UI tweaks, a tiling WM and a useful set of gnome extensions. Loving it. [1] https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/ [2] https://launchpad.net/~system76/+archive/ubuntu/pop/ https://launchpad.net/~system76/+archive/ubuntu/pop/
charlesdaniels 6y ago
While I'm not super up on these newfangled app distribution systems, I've had mostly negative experiences with both Snaps and Flatpaks. As someone that administrates a small handful of workstations and a server or two, I just don't get what these tools buy me. It seems that usually installing an application via one of these methods has negative externalities (e.g. some things not working out of box, like access to user file, or ability to play audio), or most often the applications simply don't work at all. If snaps were able to work properly out of the box, they could be good if they reduce the work for the packagers. That said, I've burned enough of my time trying to debug broken snaps that I won't entertain ever using them again. I guess if it works for someone else's use case though, that's nice. However it sure seems pretty grubby to install a snap when the user clearly intended to install an DEB package via aptitude. I will say, I've had very positive experiences with AppImage. I haven't really dug into the technical details of how these different approaches work yet, since I haven't had any reason to, but every AppImage I've wanted to use has always worked perfectly.
- simosx 6y ago
  The chromium transition from deb to snap has been discussed here (Note: October 2019) https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu could not maintain a deb package, and keep it up to date. Therefore, there is only a snap package. When you try to install with `apt`, you get chromium installed transparently instead of getting a message that describes what I already explained. The breakage would be bad if there was nothing installed when you did a "sudo snap install chromium-browser". AppImages are monolithic images, with no or minimal protection of your computer. I think they are the equivalent of the Windows packages in the 90s and 00s, that were distributed with CDs with little idea where they came from.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > I just don't get what these tools buy me. Nothing. They buy control over you for the distro publisher though.
Ice_cream_suit 6y ago
Manjaro with Xmonad is a nice desktop.
8bitsrule 6y ago
Users who like both can use both (Mint and Ubuntu any flavor). If you don't want to use Snaps in Ubuntu, you can just uninstall snapd (first thing I did). EOL. Mint had already pretty-much committed to flatpak years ago, so this came as no surprise. Clem's said there'll be a way to install Chromium. Tempest in a dongle.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
On that matter: did the snaps finally fix the situation where you had some of your mounts in non-standard places and you could not open files from there due to security settings?
apotatopot 6y ago
down w/ canonical
hbogert 6y ago
> It's more empowering developers to get their packages into users' hands very fast. They don't need to worry about the distribution." And this is why it's a double edged sword. I like packages to be validated by maintainers. I don't want a new Telegram app update every day. Just now it broke and I have to wait until the developer pushes the new build to the snap repo. It's like it's suddenly okay that everything needs to be rolling release.If I want that, I'll use arch.

214 points by CrankyBear 6y ago

markgavalda 6y ago

We've only had problems with snap so far, constantly. Kudos to Mint for doing the right thing for their users.

CrankyBear 6y ago
It's actually worked well for me. But, I never want to see a program on my Linux boxes automatically running root over a network connection for any reason without my specific say so, never mind just to install Chromium.
simosx 6y ago
What problems did you have? The dislike on snap packages looks to be too emotional. It resembles the issue with people feeling that 5G affects their health. Obviously, it does not. But the belief is so intense that they get actual observable symptoms.

henriquez 6y ago

I dumped Ubuntu over Snap. Maybe I’m just ignorant but it seems like allowing developers to push software updates without any review invites the same sorts of issues we’ve seen on npm, with very high risks for certain use cases. I don’t want that kind of relationship with my OS, forced updates are why I ditched Windows in the first place. Aside from the philosophical concerns I ran into a lot of glitches with various snap packages, frequently resulting in lost or corrupted data. And the sandbox approach prevented certain filesystem tweaking I previously took for granted. Overall I didn’t see the benefit and didn’t have time to futz with it. I’m curious if there are any distros with a recent version of Gnome and also a sane package manager.

schoolornot 6y ago
> forced updates are why I ditched Windows in the first place Samsung has followed suit w/ Android. Once an update is available, the user can defer it three times before the phone is rebooted. Not even Apple pulls this crap.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- guug 6y ago
  As a short term solution, you can use netguard and always have it run in lockdown mode. It works on most phones and doesn't require root. You can use it to whitelist app access to the internet (inc. blocking samsung and google play updates). It's also open source. In the long term, just avoid samsung products that don't respect your authority as the owner.
techntoke 6y ago
Definitely try an Arch-based distro. I run Arch myself, but I've heard good things about Manjaro.
- henriquez 6y ago
  Doesn’t arch also allow arbitrary package upgrades straight from the developers? Again I’m pretty ignorant but my impression looking at it previously was there isn’t any sort of “peer review” by repo maintainers.
  - Sevaris 6y ago
    You're never forced to update. I'm don't even think Arch natively supports automatic updates. You can also tell pacman to skip a package from being updated if you're aware of a problematic update but you want to update the rest of your system. And yes, Arch takes in the upstream vanilla packages, though there are testing phases before updates reach stable repos. I'm not sure any of this is a bad thing. It also means you don't have to wait 6-12 months for the newest version.
    - dathinab 6y ago
      I think what he/she means is that core maintainers (or AUR maintainers) might be able to change a package without another core maintainer (or AUR maintainer) reviewing it.
      - Sevaris 6y ago
        Afaik, upstream packages aren't changed by Arch maintainers. It's the whole point of using Arch. And if you're using AUR, you'd better be checking the PKGBUILD (because no, it isn't verified by anybody). At the very least, you need to be checking where the package is being downloaded from.
        dathinab 6y ago
        The PKGBUILD of packages in the official repository can be changed, which people theoretically could use to inject malware. That's what I meant.
karatestomp 6y ago
Launch times and (silly, but it really bugged me) pollution of my `df` output drove me away.
- ahartmetz 6y ago
  Cluttering up df and mount output is a real problem. They are useful tools - cluttering their output makes them much less convenient / more time-consuming to use. I have about 8 mounts for snap and like 15 for cgroups here. And actually about 10 others that I don't remember seeing before at all. pstore? securityfs? tracefs? debugfs?
- bxparks 6y ago
  Yup, the output of df became so cluttered that it became useless. So I created this alias: > alias df='df -x tmpfs -x squashfs -x devtmpfs'
  - edoceo 6y ago
    Adding to my dotfiles, thx!
  - apple4ever 6y ago
    Oh my this is awesome! Thank you. So much better.
  - omertuchfeld 6y ago
    Here's one that doesn't hide the snaps but but still keeps it not cluttered (relies on ripgrep) : function df { OUTPUT=$(/usr/bin/df $@) snaps=$(echo ${OUTPUT} | rg "^.+/snap/(.+)/.+$" -r '$1' | tr '\n' ' ') printf "\x1b[33m\x1b[1mFILTERING SNAP MOUNTPOINTS:\x1b[0m\x1b[33m\n$snaps\x1b[0m\n\n" >&2 echo $OUTPUT | grep -v "/snap/" }
hamaluik 6y ago
I've been using Manjaro for about a year now, after also getting fed up with Ubuntu. It is based on Arch, but just as easy to set up and get running as Ubuntu. I find its package management sane enough for my day-to-day use, and though I install packages from all over I have yet to have anything break on me. I can definitely recommend it.
ccmcarey 6y ago
I dumped snapd because of the maintainers absolutely refusing to allow the users to customize the update schedule, or even disable automatic updates at all. Reading the thread with the discussion on it, seems there was real contempt towards letting the user decide not to update their packages.
- simosx 6y ago
  https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date
  - SirYandi 6y ago
    I didn't see anything about completely disabling automatic updates there. Closest I could find was: "After a refresh, the next refresh can be delayed by up to 60 days, after which a refresh will be performed regardless of the refresh.hold value."
    - phatfish 6y ago
      With windows update the trick since MS enforced a similar update policy is to change the user the Windows Update service runs under to an account that doest have the required permissions. Not sure if that would work with Ubuntu though ;)
      - em-bee 6y ago
        i am surprised that this is possible under windows. for ubuntu, it should be possible to disable the daemon that runs the update checks. at worst by hacking a script where the process is started.
    - scoot_718 6y ago
      There's a solution you're not seeing https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/how-to-completely-remove-snap/19395 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/how-to-completely-remove-sna...
somewhereoutth 6y ago
Mint!
simosx 6y ago
> Maybe I’m just ignorant but it seems like allowing developers to push software updates without any review When you create a snap package and post it to the Snap Store, you only get the default limited rights for your snap. For example, your application is not able to access external disks. But if your application has a real case to do so, then you need to request to have that access added to your snap.
beefbroccoli 6y ago
haven't had that issue for years with npm/yarn, thanks to lockfiles.
sergeykish 6y ago
It could be worse. Software push is how browser distribute extensions. And they are ridden with spyware [0]. Pull by maintainers, deferred rollout, veto and rollback might what saves us yet. [1] https://blocked.cdn.mozilla.net/ https://blocked.cdn.mozilla.net/

canada_dry 6y ago

Tip: if you're wondering what SNAP apps are already installed in your system: ls -l /var/lib/snapd/snaps

simosx 6y ago
You can also snap list or have a look into `/snap/`. The directory `/var/lib/snapd/snaps/` shows the cached .snap packages, including the recent versions in case you want to revert to a previous version.

Skunkleton 6y ago

I personally don't packaging apps in a sandbox, its a violation of the basic idea of writing tools that do one thing well. Still, snap gets lots of flack, but I don't see the same for flatpak. Is there some advantage to flatpak that I am missing, or is it just than Ubuntu has pushed snaps too hard?

kemayo 6y ago
It sounds like the objection isn't technical -- sandboxed apps are perfectly fine -- but rather to how Canonical is trying to change package behavior alongside the transition. Specifically, they're forcing you to use them for some packages behind the scenes, and restricting what you can do with those packages as a result: > "In the Ubuntu 20.04 package base, the Chromium package is indeed empty and acting, without your consent, as a backdoor by connecting your computer to the Ubuntu Store. Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can't audit them, hold them, modify them, or even point snap to a different store. You've as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it installs itself without asking you."
- simosx 6y ago
  The Mint maintainer went out of his way to react in bad faith. The chromium transition was announced in October 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu was not able to maintain chromium as a deb package, and chromium is not the default browser in Ubuntu. Therefore, it has been packaged as a snap package. Since there is no longer an apt package, what should happen when you "sudo apt install chromium-browser"? The usable decision was to install the snap package of Chromium instead, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... The snap package of Chromium has been in testing for two years already. The snap package page is https://snapcraft.io/chromium https://snapcraft.io/chromium You can view the installation log, with the list of operating systems that have installed it.
6y ago

Darmody 6y ago

I can understand Canonical pushing for snaps. It's their product and they want it to succeed. That said I hate their dirty ways. I find it even morally wrong. How can "sudo apt install chromium-browser" not install the apt package but install instead a snap? How I, as a user and also as a professional, trust Ubuntu if when I use their package manager I'm being tricked? I don't use Windows for a reason, more than one actually. I've been using Ubuntu even with all the "weird" stuff Canonical has been doing over the years but I think this is the nail in the coffin. Right now I'm using 20.04 but as soon as I finish some work I have left I'll install a fresh new distro.

jimhefferon 6y ago
What distro? I use Ubuntu because I just want an OS, not a hobby.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Me too, but I'm staying on 18 for now because 20 breaks my workflows.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    I'm planning to upgrade so you have my attention. What did 20 change to break your workflow?
    - fxtentacle 6y ago
      Replacing the chromium apt with an empty package installing a random self-updating snap. In other words, pinning a specific chromium version, for example for selenium automation, is now broken.
      - pmontra 6y ago
        I didn't think about that. Thanks.
- 6y ago

Finnucane 6y ago

I've been using Mint now for several years and been satisfied with it. I was afraid that the Ubuntu's snap mishegas would force me to move elsewhere, but this is the message I was hoping to hear from the Mint team.

simosx 6y ago
The Mint maintainer was really unprofessional in his announcement. It is OK to feel strongly about something, but using words like `backdoor` is really bad. With snap packages you get companies like Microsoft to deliver a native package for Skype, Jetbrain to deliver their whole developer portfolio, Spotify their music thing, etc. They can do so because they are basing the work in a common, stable runtime.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > It is OK to feel strongly about something, but using words like `backdoor` is really bad. Okay, but... It is a backdoor. A user trying to install a deb get snap shoved down their throat. > They can do so because they are basing the work in a common, stable runtime. And none of that requires taking control from the user.
- kjs3 6y ago
  "I'm the HN shill for snap, posting dozens of times about how awesome snap is in a single thread, and since the Mint maintainer doesn't think snap is as awesome as I do, I'll call him unprofessional". FTFY.
- Finnucane 6y ago
  They could also do that with flatpak or appimage.
nihil75 6y ago
Pretty sure you could still install Snap if you wanted to. It just won't come pre-installed?

adamzochowski 6y ago

snap has problems that exist for years. It will upgrade a running application without telling the user. Then it will remount all folders in use by the running application in read only mode. As such, your chromium will start misbehaving, crashing, extensions will start failing, it won't save cookies or remember tabs after restart. DBeaver won't be saving your .sql scripts. Snap developers think users are precogs. That users without any foreshadowing will close application before snap silently upgrades it behind the scenes. Also Snap does really weird things as a container. I run multiple VPNs each within own network namespace. So something as simple as : as root: ip netns exec myVPN chromium fails with execv failed: Permission denied Both of these problems exists for years.

simosx 6y ago
Snap support is evolving. There are keys to configure when, and if, you get updates, https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date The total Linux desktop installation base is around 2.7%. Without automation, the Linux desktop does not look like it will attract any significant number of Windows users.
- jnurmine 6y ago
  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but one cannot hold off updating the snaps indefinitely. Thus there is no "if". One gets a maximum of 60 days, that is all. Through a snap proxy it's possible to hold off longer, but then the proxy needs to talk with the snap store periodically. Why people are upset is, I believe, that Canonical forces people to accept any and all changes to the installed software, without being able to guarantee perfect backwards compatibility for all upgrades. Obviously, neither Canonical nor anyone else can make that kind of promise for all software out there. Canonical should not force updates on people; let people take care of backwards compatibility; let users turn the auto-update on and off and allow users also to freeze package versions (and their system configuration), if the users so please. Also, not sure I understand the point about automation. There is automation already today in Ubuntu through autoupdating .deb packages. It is nothing inherently new in Snaps. One problem with measuring Linux desktop installation base is that Linux users are often the people who turn off telemetry, call-home, employ DNT, run ad blockers, run third party script blockers, and so on. I wonder how much this skews the results.

fxtentacle 6y ago

The main reason why I use Linux for some of my work is reproducibility. A docker image with the same apt packages installed in it will work the same every time. Snap breaks this. A snap package can update itself whenever it wants and then you the user are just screwed when things don't work together anymore. So in effect, snap breaks the main benefit of Linux for deployment and the reason why I use Linux in the first place. Every since they started with ads and affiliate links, I've been sceptical of Ubuntu. But Ubuntu 18 is still used as the base image for many docker deployments. I predict that this will change with Ubuntu 20, exactly because the snaps have made Ubuntu 20 unusable for reliable docker deployments. I'm glad that mint is stepping in to provide a viable alternative.

adambyrtek 6y ago
I agree in principle, but it's worth pointing out that Snap is designed for end-user applications, so it's unlikely to be used on a server or in a Docker image built for deployment.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  I agree in general, but my work involves website automaton, meaning the now empty chromium package. Plus I want my workstation to be as similar as possible to the deployment container to make debugging easier. So if I feel uncomfortable using Ubuntu 20 for my workstation, I should probably switch my deployment docker base image, too.
  - adambyrtek 6y ago
    Makes sense, I personally don't mind snaps for proprietary applications (mostly Slack and Spotify) which are otherwise hard to discover and keep up to date on Linux, but I don't understand why Canonical would force this for Chromium which is already packaged and open source.
  - simosx 6y ago
    Have a look at LXD. It creates system containers that are based on runtimes of most Linux distributions. You can stick to specific versions and are certain that those do not change.

flatfilefan 6y ago

Snap for me means Firefox suddenly says “I won’t open a new tab until you update me and I will drop all tabs on restart”. It also means cached content and configs in many new obscure places. It doesn’t mean any visible improvement so far. So hey, kudos Mint and hey, Ubuntu stop that already.

simosx 6y ago
There is a snap package for Firefox, but in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS, Firefox comes from the Deb package. Did you switch to the snap package yourself?
slim 6y ago
Firefox does that in debian stable. but it's supposed to restore your tabs like they were
- lottin 6y ago
  Since when?
- adamnew123456 6y ago
  That should only happen if you update from underneath it by doing an upgrade though, which is entirely at your discretion with apt. The snap equivalent is obligatory. That said, the update auto-restore almost always works in my experience. I've been running the nightly channel for a while (which updates once or twice a day) and it rarely eats tabs.
morsch 6y ago
It doesn't auto-restore my session either, but I can usually (always?) get it back using the "Restore previous session" item from the menu. (Also, like the siblings say, that's not a snap thing. If I understand it right, snap might just auto-restart without the courtesy "I can't open a new tab" message.)
kyrofa 6y ago
Uh yeah, that's just Firefox in general, from a snap or a deb.

pkaye 6y ago

> Mint never shipped snapd, Snap's daemon program or any snaps, but moving ahead, in Linux Mint 20, "Chromium won't be an empty package which installs snapd behind your back. It will be an empty package, which tells you why it's empty and tells you where to look to get Chromium yourself." Further, APT will forbid snapd from installing. Can't they just replace the Chromimum package with the one in Debian?

simosx 6y ago
The Chromium situation has been explained already in 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... There is no deb package in Ubuntu, so the system is setup to transparently install the snap package.
dathinab 6y ago
Not sure if they could, but: Then they would need to review all Ubuntu packages for snap injection and overlay them. Sure that might be doable automatically but is a bit brittle. It also means the user wouldn't learn what is going on.
- pkaye 6y ago
  They are already doing a special case for Chromimum to tell the user why its empty and where to get it. Instead they could provide a working copy based on the debian deb package.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    I understood it so that they are blocking snap generally instead of doing pretty package special handling.

etaioinshrdlu 6y ago

Ubuntu 18.04 LTS is currently super popular for servers. Any thoughts on whether 20.04 is a worthy upgrade for servers, or just a pain? Snaps in particular sound good for desktops but not servers.

simosx 6y ago
If you use LXD, then LXD is provided as a snap. Snap is currently the only packaging for LXD in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. I think the Ubuntu 20.04 runtime should be better than Ubuntu 18.04. More fixes, new features and updated versions of packages.
kyrofa 6y ago
There are definitely snaps that are useful on servers, like LXD and Nextcloud.
- ccmcarey 6y ago
  Having them auto update and restart daemon services are not good for servers though.
  - kyrofa 6y ago
    I disagree. I like having Nextcloud auto-update, even if it results in a service restart. I just schedule that for a time of day that isn't very disruptive. As for LXD, restarting the LXD daemon doesn't effect the containers (they continue running).
    - ccmcarey 6y ago
      It's about having a choice though.
      - kyrofa 6y ago
        Oh hey, I get it. That wasn't the point of the parent to which I was responding, though. I was merely trying to share that snaps are just as useful for server as for desktop, that's all.

chintan 6y ago

Hundreds of organizations, including ours, rely on Rocket.Chat for their internal messaging. It all went down when a release was pushed and snap decided to auto-update [1] I can imagine it resulted in a huge loss of productivity at all these orgs in the Covid era. Just learnt from this thread that apt-install will install snap! I'm running Ubuntu 18.04 + i3 (Dell Developer Edition) but will change to Debian. [1]. https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/issues/17628 https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/issues/17628

simosx 6y ago
You can control when to update, https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date
- sakisv 6y ago
  But that's just part of the problem though. I want to be able to rely on my system and not have a chance 4 times a day for random things to break (the default frequency based on your link). The argument about "latest == safest" may have some validity when it comes to browsers, but for everything else a notification that there is a new version would be more than enough.
- Andys 6y ago
  Would someone be able to tell me how to plain old turn it off? I still can't tell even after reading the docs
  - morsch 6y ago
    You can turn it off by replacing your operating system with another Linux distribution. As of 20.04 you also still have the option of removing Snap outright[1], as long as you don't need the software that is only provided via snap. Although apparently they are considering[2] adding the option to disable auto-updates. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 [2] https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/re-visiting-update-control-on-the-desktop/17170 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/re-visiting-update-control-on-t...

parvenu74 6y ago

I noticed that Mint is working on LMDE which uses Debian as its base directly without using Ubuntu; I wonder if this is one of the reasons motivating that project and what the other reasons are.

bad_user 6y ago

While I understand the concerns over Snap, you can't blame Canonical for trying, because lets be honest, rpm/deb packages are a mess. I see in the comments a complaint that you don't want the developers upgrading their apps whenever they want ... really? Because that's my number one complaint for debs/rpms too. You can't install specific versions, you can't install multiple versions side by side and installing a newer version of one package can break your system due to its dependencies. Snaps can't possibly be worse than this and they aren't. And on the server-side I understand wanting to review each updated package, but on your laptop, how often does one do that anyway? For the general population automatic upgrades are a net win. The same moaning happened when Firefox switched, following Chrome, to automatic updates and fast releases and people now love that, including me. You trusted the app developers as soon as you installed that app on your computer with full privileges. And most apps don't have reproducible builds, even if the app is open source, trusting the binary you're installing is also a leap of faith. Unless the OS can sandbox that app, installing any app is about trust in a brand and faith. And debs aren't sandboxed. When I switched to MacOS, 6 years ago, I missed Ubuntu's repository, I hated Homebrew, I hated installing apps by copying them from volumes mounted from .dmg files. But not anymore. I rarely have issues now. Experience could be improved of course, I sometimes want versioning, I want reproducible environments, which is why I'm experimenting with Nix (see https://nixos.org/ https://nixos.org/). The first thing I did on a fresh Ubuntu 18.04 LTS box, couple of months back? I searched for "Firefox Developer Edition" and failed to find a PPA for it or a beta channel that seems to be up to date. Speaking of which, people complain about Snap being insecure, however I've never seen an Ubuntu/Debian workstation that doesn't make use of insecure PPAs. Also packaging apps via DEB files is hard. I tried building DEBs for my server-side apps, but unless the process is automated via tools that are not language/platform agnostic, I found it hard, with documentation severely lacking. --- This is one big reason for why Docker is now the preferred distribution mechanism for self-hosted apps on Linux servers. It's very easy to create a Dockerfile and the result won't infect your system with crap. I have yet to try out Snaps, maybe some of the critiques are warranted, but it can't possibly be worse than the status quo. The only problem, a major one, is that yet again we've got no agreement between vendors. But that's sadly the Linux ecosystem, a genuine Tower of Babel.

progval 6y ago

mrtweetyhack 6y ago

Thank you Mint

commoner 6y ago

Many applications packaged under Snap are still unusable on Fedora and Arch because Snap has a bug that renders tofu characters (□□□) instead of text: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-on-fedora-and-arch/12484 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snapped-app-not-loading-fonts-o... I'm not sure whether Linux Mint is also affected by this issue, but it's clear that Canonical doesn't perform quality assurance for Snap on any Linux distribution other than Ubuntu.

simosx 6y ago
The discussion pinpoints the issue in the fontconfig cache files. It is being worked on. The issue is not "snap packages only show tofu characters" but rather in some cases snap packages cannot access the system fonts, hence the squares.
- commoner 6y ago
  This bug has not been addressed for almost a year, which is completely unacceptable when the Snapcraft homepage advertises that "Snaps work across Linux on any distribution or version." https://snapcraft.io/ https://snapcraft.io/

eberkund 6y ago

This appears to be an unpopular opinion, but I like snaps and Canonical's philosophy in some ways mimics that of Apple's where they care about usability over configurability. Snaps have been my preferred method of installation for a few years now. I really like how I know where the files are being installed to and if I uninstall the software it will be removed cleanly. I also like how for most software snaps contain the latest release of the software which has not been my experience with distro specific apt repos. I can even install beta, nightly or previous releases very easily using snap store channels. I've never experienced any package manager on any OS that has made it this easy. I've also developed about a half dozen snaps, some of them were open source contributions to existing software, others were my closed-source projects and one was some contract work for a third party who wanted to snap their existing software for easier distribution. And although there were some pain points, I found the process and YAML based manifest file to be far better than most tools. My only gripe with snaps at this time is that there is no system like PPAs so if you want to use snaps for your privately distributed app then you need to do it through Canonical and more advanced control features will cost you extra.

lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
I like the idea of Snap, but Flatpak seems to be a much better implementation.
- commoner 6y ago
  Absolutely. The server-side implementation of Snap is closed source and the Snap Store is a single instance controlled solely by Canonical. Flatpak repositories are decentralized and can be hosted on private servers with flat-manager, which is FOSS: https://github.com/flatpak/flat-manager https://github.com/flatpak/flat-manager
  - m463 6y ago
    Right - it's a control/monetization strategy.
- simosx 6y ago

_emacsomancer_ 6y ago

My number one complaint about Snaps is that they're not portable (despite being labelled "universal packages for Linux"): they start to work less well outside of Ubuntu, and they don't work at all unless you're running systemd. I find this slightly ridiculous given that Flatpaks really do work more universally - they don't require systemd - and they come out of Red Hat - the home of systemd.

simosx 6y ago
snapd is a service, therefore it requires an init system.
- _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
  So? systemd isn't the only daemon-manager.
  - simosx 6y ago
    Is the question whether snapd require an init, or whether snapd should be packaged to work with more init systems?
    - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
      The point is that a "universal packages for Linux" system shouldn't have a hard dependency on systemd in particular. systemd isn't Linux.

bouncycastle 6y ago

From reading the other comments, people just don't like having security updates done automatically - they'd like to have more control when they are performed. Kind of like in Windows, where your computer suddenly shuts down to apply a service pack while you were in the middle of an important World of Warcraft raid that you were planning for weeks. There's always a trade-off between keeping your system secure and being available. Most people don't like to trade off availability, and it makes sense.

rrmm 6y ago
I've seen more than one twitch streamer going into a big stream, get screwed by this. Of course, they should've known. But we've all made that mistake during a demo or presentation at some point or another. Worse yet, when you update ahead of time and drivers or other parts of update are incompatible. Stable configurations are important to a lot of people.
- bouncycastle 6y ago
  Completely understandable. It would be great to have more control over how and when the updates are run.
jimbob45 6y ago
This is my read on the situation too. MS already solved this too: just make it difficult, but not impossible to turn off.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kjs3 6y ago
Unless you're on a corporate machine where they have some Group Policy to force updates, you absolutely can control when updates are performed. You might have to actually learn how to do that, but it's not like M$ makes it impossible.

tkuraku 6y ago

I have found flatpaks to be much better (they are much faster to startup), except that flatpak doesn't have an unconfined or "classic" mode like snaps. THis is especially annoying if you wanted to install vscode to access the system compiler, python, etc.

akvadrako 6y ago
I am planning to develop a solution to this VSCode issue soon - there are basically two ways to make it work: 1. Using platform or app flatpak extensions, one can plugin compilers and runtimes so they are available inside the sandbox. 2. One can add shims that launch programs outside the sandbox using flatpak-spawn --host.

rbanffy 6y ago

Snaps are a poor solution for the problem apt already solved years ago.

simosx 6y ago
"apt" packages are handmade. And they depend on hand-made dependencies. It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain packages like chromium, because they have too many dependencies, that have to be packaged individually. The "universe" repository has tens of thousands of packages. Do you know that a majority of them are not maintained because it is too much effort and not many helping hands?
- rbanffy 6y ago
  So we have an automation problem. Building packages is needlessly inconvenient and the few hands we have are overwhelmed by the number of packages that need maintaining. And we "solve" it by allowing the inclusion of different, incompatible, versions of packages into even bigger packages. Sorry, but that's not a solution. It's the technical debt equivalent to payday lenders.
- inshadows 6y ago
  Do not pretend that "apt" (.deb) packages require un-bundling dependencies. That's just policy decision of Debian. You could just create Chrome package and put everything in /opt/google-chrome or whatever root path you choose. Ubuntu could have lifted this policy.

AdmiralAsshat 6y ago

It's interesting how many distros built on top of Ubuntu are explicitly dropping snaps or throwing their support behind flatpaks: - Linux Mint - ElementaryOS - Pop!_OS Take a hint, Canonical. You guys made some great strides towards being less silo'd by dropping Unity and Mir in favor of vanilla GNOME + Wayland, but you're still all-in on snaps for some reason. Are the handful of proprietary software companies that want an easier installer for Linux really worth it?

simosx 6y ago
This polemic attitude is really bad for open-source. Snap packages are good, and such efforts may help get the Linux desktop rise over the 3%. Lenovo announced they are fully supporting Ubuntu desktop for two lines of computers.
- AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
  Okay...so? Lenovo also announced they're going to certify some laptops for Fedora as well: https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/ https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-lapt... If you're suggesting that we all need to rally behind everything Canonical does because Ubuntu has the best shot of propelling Linux into the mainstream, I would say that's all the more reason to hold them accountable for decisions that the Linux community finds unpopular. Many don't like snaps. Don't force snaps on us through duplicitous means like the chromium installer. Why is that bad for open source?
  - simosx 6y ago
    Lenovo, in their announcement, they start by saying that they made the move because the Linux desktop stands at 2.7%. And they want in, in this 2.7% market. If the Linux desktop becomes a 5% market, or a 8% market, then it will open the floodgates to other companies offering support to desktop Linux. Source: https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-brings-linux-certification-to-thinkpad-and-thinkstation-workstation-portfolio-easing-deployment-for-developers-data-scientists/ https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-brin... What I see on HN is perpetual bitching and anti-Ubuntu sentiment. As if the Linux desktop is a zero-sum game. One wins and the rest are gone. In the harsh reality, if the Linux desktop gets like 5% or more, it will signal other companies to start supporting. The chromium issue has been around since October 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu cannot support a deb package because Chromium is huge in their dependencies and cannot provide timely updates. Therefore, there is only a snap package. And, what happens if the end-user tries the chromium browser? The system transparently installs the snap package instead of presenting an essay to explain the full background. Is it so difficult to say respectfully, "everyone do your thing to increase the marketshare of desktop Linux so that it eventually opens the floodgates of support". You cannot increase the Linux desktop marketshare by staying within the 2.7% of the Linux desktop. You just need to attract new Windows users, not steal Ubuntu users.

Ctd2xUvMAicg 6y ago

Pop OS [1] does something similar. Based on Ubuntu, but replaces snap with flatpak. You can apt-get packages like chromium from their PPA [2]. I'm very pleased with their developer centric approach. They also apply very nice UI tweaks, a tiling WM and a useful set of gnome extensions. Loving it. [1] https://pop.system76.com/ https://pop.system76.com/ [2] https://launchpad.net/~system76/+archive/ubuntu/pop/ https://launchpad.net/~system76/+archive/ubuntu/pop/

charlesdaniels 6y ago

While I'm not super up on these newfangled app distribution systems, I've had mostly negative experiences with both Snaps and Flatpaks. As someone that administrates a small handful of workstations and a server or two, I just don't get what these tools buy me. It seems that usually installing an application via one of these methods has negative externalities (e.g. some things not working out of box, like access to user file, or ability to play audio), or most often the applications simply don't work at all. If snaps were able to work properly out of the box, they could be good if they reduce the work for the packagers. That said, I've burned enough of my time trying to debug broken snaps that I won't entertain ever using them again. I guess if it works for someone else's use case though, that's nice. However it sure seems pretty grubby to install a snap when the user clearly intended to install an DEB package via aptitude. I will say, I've had very positive experiences with AppImage. I haven't really dug into the technical details of how these different approaches work yet, since I haven't had any reason to, but every AppImage I've wanted to use has always worked perfectly.

simosx 6y ago
The chromium transition from deb to snap has been discussed here (Note: October 2019) https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu could not maintain a deb package, and keep it up to date. Therefore, there is only a snap package. When you try to install with `apt`, you get chromium installed transparently instead of getting a message that describes what I already explained. The breakage would be bad if there was nothing installed when you did a "sudo snap install chromium-browser". AppImages are monolithic images, with no or minimal protection of your computer. I think they are the equivalent of the Windows packages in the 90s and 00s, that were distributed with CDs with little idea where they came from.
perryizgr8 6y ago
> I just don't get what these tools buy me. Nothing. They buy control over you for the distro publisher though.

Ice_cream_suit 6y ago

Manjaro with Xmonad is a nice desktop.

8bitsrule 6y ago

Users who like both can use both (Mint and Ubuntu any flavor). If you don't want to use Snaps in Ubuntu, you can just uninstall snapd (first thing I did). EOL. Mint had already pretty-much committed to flatpak years ago, so this came as no surprise. Clem's said there'll be a way to install Chromium. Tempest in a dongle.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

On that matter: did the snaps finally fix the situation where you had some of your mounts in non-standard places and you could not open files from there due to security settings?

apotatopot 6y ago

down w/ canonical

hbogert 6y ago

> It's more empowering developers to get their packages into users' hands very fast. They don't need to worry about the distribution." And this is why it's a double edged sword. I like packages to be validated by maintainers. I don't want a new Telegram app update every day. Just now it broke and I have to wait until the developer pushes the new build to the snap repo. It's like it's suddenly okay that everything needs to be rolling release.If I want that, I'll use arch.