7 ms·

The Signal app experience leaves a lot to be desired compared to Telegram or Matrix.

themodelplumber 6y ago
I was about to ask about this. Signal was comparatively annoying. Can I keep using Telegram or am I postponing the inevitable? Curious.
- techntoke 6y ago
  As far as I am aware E2E only works on mobile and I think Mac for Telegram, although there may be third-party apps that support it. As long as you use E2E then I believe it has a lot more active users and probably has received an equal amount of security validation, so you should be fine.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Is Telegram at all trustworthy? I feel like I’ve repeatedly seen on HN that they’re not a good choice for secure messaging (though I don’t remember the specifics around it). Signal and Matrix are the two options I’ve settled on. [Edit]: Looks like the main issues with Telegram are that it doesn't use end to end encryption by default and that they rolled their own encryption protocol that's likely not secure. They also used to leak a ton of metadata, but from searching around it looks like they may have made improvements. Either way seems like something to avoid when there are obviously better alternatives.
  - est31 6y ago
    Telegram is not E2E per default. They claim to not turn over data to authorities but I doubt that claim. Signal on the other hand is fully end to end encrypted.
  - input_sh 6y ago
    Telegram only end-to-end encrypts "secret messages", which I assume are rarely used.
    - anticensor 6y ago
      Telegram secret chats allow self-destruct timers and remote retraction of messages.
  - AnonC 6y ago
    Telegram's homegrown crypto has been dismissed by many people (including experts). But it offers privacy features that some other messengers do not. Is Signal trustworthy considering that it exposes your phone number to everyone else in groups? With Telegram it's possible to communicate with anyone without revealing your phone number or profile picture or anything else.
    - fossuser 6y ago
      The phone number issue is pretty overblown since it's a clear and intentional tradeoff that allows signal to retain very little metadata (leveraging local phone contacts instead of sending your social graph to their servers like everyone else). Moxie Marlinspike is the founder/co-author of the protocol and Brian Acton put in massive funding after the FB/Whatsapp fallout - not sure you can get better than that? They're also making moves to make the phone number requirement unnecessary. What privacy features does Telegram have? It sounds like they don't even have encryption on by default and people have also dismissed their security? Why would anyone use them?
    - sorenjan 6y ago
      > Telegram's homegrown crypto has been dismissed by many people (including experts). Only the expert's opinions are of any value IMO, and I've never seen anyone showing an attack on Telegram's encryption. Telegram themselves seem to claim that it's never broken. I often see vague criticism over the fact that they use their own protocol, but never anything more detailed than that. https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-i-39m-a-security-expert-and-i-think-your-protocol-is-not-secur https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-i-39m-a-security-expert-...
      - AnonC 6y ago
        GP here. I agree. I believe there’s a stigma against Telegram. There was one security issue with the MProto version 1 several years ago, which was reported (given a bounty too, IIRC) and fixed. I don’t recall any other issue being reported after that.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  I switched my friends from Telegram to Signal a few months ago and it’s been great. Probably depends on the features you use most frequently, but we switched as soon as message replies were added.
rubatuga 6y ago
You get voice, video, chat, stickers, files. What more do you want?
- techntoke 6y ago
  For Signal desktop on Linux to not require that I validate my mobile device randomly to read my encrypted messages. If it used GPG then this wouldn't be a problem.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    What does this dialog look like? I don’t recall having seen that in my Signal desktop on Linux or Mac.
    - techntoke 6y ago
      It looks like a yellow notification that says you need to re-link your mobile device, and in order to do so you have to take a picture of a QR code from your mobile device.
- coolspot 6y ago
  Bot API
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    They’re working on support for email based accounts rather than just phone numbers. This will likely open up that possibility. I’m looking forward to it as well as my only Telegram use case is using it as a notification service for my servers. All my chats are transitioned to Signal.
- pentae 6y ago
  my encrypted chats saved across multiple devices
  - 6y ago
atoav 6y ago
Does it tho? It changed a lot during the last years and for most stuff I do with my friends (videocalls, textmessages, recorded speechmessages, pictures, videos, groupstuff, desktop app) it just works fine.
- est31 6y ago
  It's been a massive battery drain for me as I have no Google services. It's a known bug. You can't really turn off that drain either in favor of getting messages later. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/6898 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/6898 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/9194 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/9194 Other apps like Threema or Telegram might delay messages sometimes, but at least they keep my device operational. If I'm punished for opting out of Google's spying, I at least want to choose the punishment.
- jhoechtl 6y ago
  It doesn't do Video calls for one thing.
  - daeken 6y ago
    Signal has video calls
- jabirali 6y ago
  With the exception of desktop app, I agree :). The desktop app takes several minutes to open (at least on Linux), so I find that the only way to use it is to start it at boot and always leave it open. I'm still hoping that someone may create other clients, e.g. a Pidgin backend. The mobile apps, on the other hand, work really well. Been using them for years now, both on Android and iOS.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    The desktop app situation is pretty similar for all messaging apps. I don't really know any messaging application that has good, native desktop apps. Can't really include iMessage in good faith due to the platform restrictions.
0xy 6y ago
Telegram is THE standard in messaging apps. It's basically flawless. It's extremely fast, and it works every single time. Notifications are rock solid on every platform, it doesn't hog your battery and it feels fluid to use. Signal, Wickr, WhatsApp and others do not have this experience. They all have drawbacks and do not feel Telegram fast.
- fossuser 6y ago
  It may be the standard for speed, but it's not the standard for security.
- mosselman 6y ago
  Telegram by far has the best user experience, yes.
partyboat1586 6y ago
It's just a fact that Telegram has more features. Every few weeks I get a notification with a long list of features, it's a more rich experience. My main favourite thing is just that gifs show up bigger. Muted chat, chat groups, draw on photos, stickers on photos, quiz / polls, dice rolls. Signal does cover the basics well through (GIFs, voice messages, video, photo, replies) and it has a clean interface.
- smichel17 6y ago
  > Muted chat, chat groups, draw on photos, stickers on photos, Signal has all of these > quiz / polls, dice rolls. Not these, as far as I know.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    By chat groups I mean chat folders. You can put some chats into a folder to organise them. Clearly every chat app has group chats.
  - 0x49d1 6y ago
    Also lacks proper fast and memory efficient desktop client, good cloud backups, settings for almost everything (traffic usage/space/visuals), programmable bots. And I'm not saying about some features that for example I use a lot, like "Channels" (Almost always for news, but with ability to offline access to linked websites). Anyway: you just have to test for yourself how comfortably fast their software is on both desktop/mobile platforms. Tho sure I like Signal very much, it's just not a product for "average human" for now.

I was about to ask about this. Signal was comparatively annoying. Can I keep using Telegram or am I postponing the inevitable? Curious.

techntoke 6y ago
As far as I am aware E2E only works on mobile and I think Mac for Telegram, although there may be third-party apps that support it. As long as you use E2E then I believe it has a lot more active users and probably has received an equal amount of security validation, so you should be fine.
fossuser 6y ago
Is Telegram at all trustworthy? I feel like I’ve repeatedly seen on HN that they’re not a good choice for secure messaging (though I don’t remember the specifics around it). Signal and Matrix are the two options I’ve settled on. [Edit]: Looks like the main issues with Telegram are that it doesn't use end to end encryption by default and that they rolled their own encryption protocol that's likely not secure. They also used to leak a ton of metadata, but from searching around it looks like they may have made improvements. Either way seems like something to avoid when there are obviously better alternatives.
- est31 6y ago
  Telegram is not E2E per default. They claim to not turn over data to authorities but I doubt that claim. Signal on the other hand is fully end to end encrypted.
- input_sh 6y ago
  Telegram only end-to-end encrypts "secret messages", which I assume are rarely used.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    Telegram secret chats allow self-destruct timers and remote retraction of messages.
- AnonC 6y ago
  Telegram's homegrown crypto has been dismissed by many people (including experts). But it offers privacy features that some other messengers do not. Is Signal trustworthy considering that it exposes your phone number to everyone else in groups? With Telegram it's possible to communicate with anyone without revealing your phone number or profile picture or anything else.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    The phone number issue is pretty overblown since it's a clear and intentional tradeoff that allows signal to retain very little metadata (leveraging local phone contacts instead of sending your social graph to their servers like everyone else). Moxie Marlinspike is the founder/co-author of the protocol and Brian Acton put in massive funding after the FB/Whatsapp fallout - not sure you can get better than that? They're also making moves to make the phone number requirement unnecessary. What privacy features does Telegram have? It sounds like they don't even have encryption on by default and people have also dismissed their security? Why would anyone use them?
  - sorenjan 6y ago
    > Telegram's homegrown crypto has been dismissed by many people (including experts). Only the expert's opinions are of any value IMO, and I've never seen anyone showing an attack on Telegram's encryption. Telegram themselves seem to claim that it's never broken. I often see vague criticism over the fact that they use their own protocol, but never anything more detailed than that. https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-i-39m-a-security-expert-and-i-think-your-protocol-is-not-secur https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-i-39m-a-security-expert-...
    - AnonC 6y ago
      GP here. I agree. I believe there’s a stigma against Telegram. There was one security issue with the MProto version 1 several years ago, which was reported (given a bounty too, IIRC) and fixed. I don’t recall any other issue being reported after that.
ViViDboarder 6y ago
I switched my friends from Telegram to Signal a few months ago and it’s been great. Probably depends on the features you use most frequently, but we switched as soon as message replies were added.

rubatuga 6y ago

You get voice, video, chat, stickers, files. What more do you want?

techntoke 6y ago
For Signal desktop on Linux to not require that I validate my mobile device randomly to read my encrypted messages. If it used GPG then this wouldn't be a problem.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  What does this dialog look like? I don’t recall having seen that in my Signal desktop on Linux or Mac.
  - techntoke 6y ago
    It looks like a yellow notification that says you need to re-link your mobile device, and in order to do so you have to take a picture of a QR code from your mobile device.
coolspot 6y ago
Bot API
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  They’re working on support for email based accounts rather than just phone numbers. This will likely open up that possibility. I’m looking forward to it as well as my only Telegram use case is using it as a notification service for my servers. All my chats are transitioned to Signal.
pentae 6y ago
my encrypted chats saved across multiple devices
- 6y ago

atoav 6y ago

Does it tho? It changed a lot during the last years and for most stuff I do with my friends (videocalls, textmessages, recorded speechmessages, pictures, videos, groupstuff, desktop app) it just works fine.

est31 6y ago
It's been a massive battery drain for me as I have no Google services. It's a known bug. You can't really turn off that drain either in favor of getting messages later. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/6898 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/6898 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/9194 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/9194 Other apps like Threema or Telegram might delay messages sometimes, but at least they keep my device operational. If I'm punished for opting out of Google's spying, I at least want to choose the punishment.
jhoechtl 6y ago
It doesn't do Video calls for one thing.
- daeken 6y ago
  Signal has video calls
jabirali 6y ago
With the exception of desktop app, I agree :). The desktop app takes several minutes to open (at least on Linux), so I find that the only way to use it is to start it at boot and always leave it open. I'm still hoping that someone may create other clients, e.g. a Pidgin backend. The mobile apps, on the other hand, work really well. Been using them for years now, both on Android and iOS.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  The desktop app situation is pretty similar for all messaging apps. I don't really know any messaging application that has good, native desktop apps. Can't really include iMessage in good faith due to the platform restrictions.

0xy 6y ago

Telegram is THE standard in messaging apps. It's basically flawless. It's extremely fast, and it works every single time. Notifications are rock solid on every platform, it doesn't hog your battery and it feels fluid to use. Signal, Wickr, WhatsApp and others do not have this experience. They all have drawbacks and do not feel Telegram fast.

fossuser 6y ago
It may be the standard for speed, but it's not the standard for security.
mosselman 6y ago
Telegram by far has the best user experience, yes.

partyboat1586 6y ago

It's just a fact that Telegram has more features. Every few weeks I get a notification with a long list of features, it's a more rich experience. My main favourite thing is just that gifs show up bigger. Muted chat, chat groups, draw on photos, stickers on photos, quiz / polls, dice rolls. Signal does cover the basics well through (GIFs, voice messages, video, photo, replies) and it has a clean interface.

smichel17 6y ago
> Muted chat, chat groups, draw on photos, stickers on photos, Signal has all of these > quiz / polls, dice rolls. Not these, as far as I know.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  By chat groups I mean chat folders. You can put some chats into a folder to organise them. Clearly every chat app has group chats.
- 0x49d1 6y ago
  Also lacks proper fast and memory efficient desktop client, good cloud backups, settings for almost everything (traffic usage/space/visuals), programmable bots. And I'm not saying about some features that for example I use a lot, like "Channels" (Almost always for news, but with ability to offline access to linked websites). Anyway: you just have to test for yourself how comfortably fast their software is on both desktop/mobile platforms. Tho sure I like Signal very much, it's just not a product for "average human" for now.