5 ms·

USA Payroll tax: 15.3% combined, first $127,000 only (3.89% effective) France Payroll tax: 20% for salaries over €151,965. USA Income tax: 42%, including Stat

USA Payroll tax: 15.3% combined, first $127,000 only (3.89% effective) France Payroll tax: 20% for salaries over €151,965. USA Income tax: 42%, including State (CA) and Federal, excluding deductions France Income Tax: 50%. So the labour cost will be a lot higher due to payroll taxes, and the employee will take home less due to income taxes. High VAT (20% in France, 8.5% in SF) means consumer purchases are also more expensive. If you are in Paris, you're at a latitude 48.8N, SF 37.7N. The same is true for moving to other Anglo countries: UK, Canada, Australia have similar lower-tax regimes. France, Germany etc. are charging huge payroll, income and sales taxes to fund their huge welfare states and bureaucracies, but in the process ruining their competitiveness.

MaximumYComb 6y ago
San Fran also has over 8k homeless in a population of 800k. The overall homeless rate in France is about 5x lower per capita. My opinion on paying taxes changed drastically after I visited the USA 2 years ago (San Fran, LA, Vegas). I was absolutely shocked by the amount of poverty I saw and I had never realised that America had such a drastically different culture to Australia.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-homeless-decade-2010s-kositsky-navigation-center-friedenbach https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-home... For the 2019-2020 fiscal year, San Francisco will spend $364 million on the homeless. I think there are other major issues besides lack of money from lack of taxes. For one thing, when comparing per capita, you shouldn't just look at the population of San Francisco. A lot of those 8k homeless people came from other parts of the state or even other parts of the country to San Francisco. This is in large part that San Francisco has nice weather and is relatively welcoming to the homeless compared to a lot of cities and jurisdictions. Whereas in a lot of cities, homeless residents might get a lot of harrassment from the police, in San Francisico for the most part they are left alone. So when doing per capita homelessness in San Francisco, you probably need to look at a much larger overall population that just that of San Francisco.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    That still leaves a 3.5 times higher homeless rate per capita than in France. One third is a lot but it's not the driving force behind homelessness. >As of 2014, the city was believed to have approximately 7,000 homeless residents.[55][56] As of 2015, approximately 71% of the city's homeless had housing in the city before becoming homeless, while the remaining 29% came from outside of San Francisco. This figure is up from 61% in 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area#San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...
- Haga 6y ago
  The taxes in the US are just hidden away in privat services. Your gated community guard. Your doctor. Your car. Your kids educationaand school. All the things in Europe provided, you pay extra.
adev_ 6y ago
> France, Germany etc. are charging huge payroll, income and sales taxes to fund their huge welfare states and bureaucracies, but in the process ruining their competitiveness That's a common bashing legend that France/Germany are taxe hell and it is mainly bullshit. I am currently live in France with salary over 100k and my effective taxe rate is under 20%. Both France and Germany (and almost every European country) have a gazillion way of reducing legally your taxe bill if you do it right. Currently, some of my colleagues in Switzerland, a well known taxe heaven, pay more taxe than I do.
- pingec 6y ago
  And what are those ways?
  - smartervo 6y ago
    Off the top of my head... in France, you pay tax as a household rather than an individual. So if you are married with children you get a tax cut for each child up to 3. Private pension contributions are also tax deductible and don't actually have to be used for retirement (you can use it to fund a first house for example) Other things that you can take off your tax bill include alimony payments, charitable donations and investments made in certain French initiatives. So yes, there are many ways to legally reduce your tax bill quite significantly here.
    - adev_ 6y ago
      And to add, Randomly out of my mind : - Owning a flat and rent it to a thrid party. Many fees on it are deductible. - Investing in medium/small-sized companies. - Making property/housing more energy efficient. - Invest in accommodations for disabled/elderly/etc. - Fees for the studies of your kids. - Support/Invest in art / creative related enterprise. - And many other that need to be checked. That is not exceptional. Many European countries have similar taxes credit schemes.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  France is a tax and red tape hell. As an individual you may be OK re. tax if you are married with children because they give strong tax advantages to those households [basically they count how many people live on your income when calculating income tax], which must be your case. But overall tax levels are high, taxes are many and complicated, red tape works against you.
imtringued 6y ago
Unless you are earning above 400k€ per year your income taxes will be less than 42% of your income in Germany. Lets say you are earning SF type salaries in Germany. Something like 150k€ per year. Your income tax will still only be 30% of your income. So why are only 90k€ arriving on your bank account? (60% of your salary). Because medical, unemployment, long term care insurance and pensions are mandatory but also provided by the government in Germany. The effectiveness of these insurances is much lower if only a minority is taking advantage of them. Imagine extreme examples like everyone who signs up for unemployment insurance is freshly unemployed and once they find a job they cancel their insurance. There is no way to make it work without the government.
wikibob 6y ago
You ignored the contribution sociale in France. “Not a tax”-tax

MaximumYComb 6y ago

San Fran also has over 8k homeless in a population of 800k. The overall homeless rate in France is about 5x lower per capita. My opinion on paying taxes changed drastically after I visited the USA 2 years ago (San Fran, LA, Vegas). I was absolutely shocked by the amount of poverty I saw and I had never realised that America had such a drastically different culture to Australia.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-homeless-decade-2010s-kositsky-navigation-center-friedenbach https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-home... For the 2019-2020 fiscal year, San Francisco will spend $364 million on the homeless. I think there are other major issues besides lack of money from lack of taxes. For one thing, when comparing per capita, you shouldn't just look at the population of San Francisco. A lot of those 8k homeless people came from other parts of the state or even other parts of the country to San Francisco. This is in large part that San Francisco has nice weather and is relatively welcoming to the homeless compared to a lot of cities and jurisdictions. Whereas in a lot of cities, homeless residents might get a lot of harrassment from the police, in San Francisico for the most part they are left alone. So when doing per capita homelessness in San Francisco, you probably need to look at a much larger overall population that just that of San Francisco.
- imtringued 6y ago
  That still leaves a 3.5 times higher homeless rate per capita than in France. One third is a lot but it's not the driving force behind homelessness. >As of 2014, the city was believed to have approximately 7,000 homeless residents.[55][56] As of 2015, approximately 71% of the city's homeless had housing in the city before becoming homeless, while the remaining 29% came from outside of San Francisco. This figure is up from 61% in 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area#San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...
Haga 6y ago
The taxes in the US are just hidden away in privat services. Your gated community guard. Your doctor. Your car. Your kids educationaand school. All the things in Europe provided, you pay extra.

adev_ 6y ago

> France, Germany etc. are charging huge payroll, income and sales taxes to fund their huge welfare states and bureaucracies, but in the process ruining their competitiveness That's a common bashing legend that France/Germany are taxe hell and it is mainly bullshit. I am currently live in France with salary over 100k and my effective taxe rate is under 20%. Both France and Germany (and almost every European country) have a gazillion way of reducing legally your taxe bill if you do it right. Currently, some of my colleagues in Switzerland, a well known taxe heaven, pay more taxe than I do.

pingec 6y ago
And what are those ways?
- smartervo 6y ago
  Off the top of my head... in France, you pay tax as a household rather than an individual. So if you are married with children you get a tax cut for each child up to 3. Private pension contributions are also tax deductible and don't actually have to be used for retirement (you can use it to fund a first house for example) Other things that you can take off your tax bill include alimony payments, charitable donations and investments made in certain French initiatives. So yes, there are many ways to legally reduce your tax bill quite significantly here.
  - adev_ 6y ago
    And to add, Randomly out of my mind : - Owning a flat and rent it to a thrid party. Many fees on it are deductible. - Investing in medium/small-sized companies. - Making property/housing more energy efficient. - Invest in accommodations for disabled/elderly/etc. - Fees for the studies of your kids. - Support/Invest in art / creative related enterprise. - And many other that need to be checked. That is not exceptional. Many European countries have similar taxes credit schemes.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
France is a tax and red tape hell. As an individual you may be OK re. tax if you are married with children because they give strong tax advantages to those households [basically they count how many people live on your income when calculating income tax], which must be your case. But overall tax levels are high, taxes are many and complicated, red tape works against you.

imtringued 6y ago

Unless you are earning above 400k€ per year your income taxes will be less than 42% of your income in Germany. Lets say you are earning SF type salaries in Germany. Something like 150k€ per year. Your income tax will still only be 30% of your income. So why are only 90k€ arriving on your bank account? (60% of your salary). Because medical, unemployment, long term care insurance and pensions are mandatory but also provided by the government in Germany. The effectiveness of these insurances is much lower if only a minority is taking advantage of them. Imagine extreme examples like everyone who signs up for unemployment insurance is freshly unemployed and once they find a job they cancel their insurance. There is no way to make it work without the government.

wikibob 6y ago

You ignored the contribution sociale in France. “Not a tax”-tax