17 ms·

Germany bans digital doppelganger passport photos

258 points by aloukissas 6y ago

ceejayoz 6y ago
Surely manipulating the photo beyond tweaking exposure, white balance, etc. was already banned? It sounds like they're just taking steps to make it harder to do the already-banned thing. Hell, you can't even fix red-eye in the US: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/photos.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app... > Can I remove red-eye from my photo? No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. You will have to submit a new photo without red eye.
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  Currently you can bring your own picture which makes it possible to do certain modifications beforehand.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Possible, yes. Permitted, no. The "photographer submits via a secure form" approach detailed in the article leaves this loophole pretty open, too, unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access.
    - the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
      > unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access. Passport picture photographers will need a license in Germany.
    - mtnGoat 6y ago
      The blackmarket is very much alive and well in Germany, allowing photographers to verify anything is silly, they can be bribed. :x In fact when I lived in Austria, within a couple months I had access to more black market goods/services then I did after growing up in the US for 25 years. I would imagine Germany is the same.
      - possiblelion 6y ago
        What do you mean by this? What kind of black market goods did you have access to?
        fluffything 6y ago
        Given location and user name, probably milk.
        ilammy 6y ago
        Seem sketchy, given > after growing up in the US for 25 years and the average lifespan of the species being 12-15 years.
        oh_sigh 6y ago
        I don't know about Austria bit there is a healthy market in Sweden for anything which is heavily taxed - mainly alcohol, cigarettes.
        mattr47 6y ago
        Alcohol and cigarettes are always on the black market close to US military bases. Prices are always cheaper for service members and their family on base.
        xwdv 6y ago
        Databases of credit card numbers on USB sticks, etc
      - Spivak 6y ago
        The point isn't that they can be bribed, it's that the photographer has to attach their name to the photo and certify that it hasn't been altered or tampered with. It adds the ability to go after the photographer if they gov't ever discovers tampering has been done.
        LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        New business model. Pop-up photoshop. Like the countless other businesses popping up, operating for a few months, washing money, closing down, owners gone, employees unknown, and so on.
    - usrusr 6y ago
      Not really: a paper trail and a process that requires the photographer to be knowingly and provably complicit would already create a pretty high barrier. Not an insurmountably high barrier, but no amount of vetting could.
    - eulenteufel 6y ago
      When I got my first drivers license (Germany) the photographer actually digitally removed some moles from my face and did other editing to make the picture appear more good looking. I was a bit baffled as the picture is supposed to identify me but didn't say anything. Since then I always take ID-pictures in a photo booth. It really doesn't need a professional to take an acceptable picture. I could imagine a photo booth outputting a digital copy of the picture with signature so it is clear to the registration office that the picture has not been meddled with.
      - dspig 6y ago
        Or that the photograph of the large photograph the booth took a picture of has not been meddled with.
    - ibejoeb 6y ago
      Is there some sort of camera fingerprinting technology out there, then, that distinguishes between processing done on the camera vs. post-processing in software? If not, how are we even going to tell, short of having signed files coming off the chip?
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Makes it possible or makes it legal?
    - adambyrtek 6y ago
      We developers sometimes struggle with the distinction. The point of laws and regulations is usually not to make fraud technically impossible, but increase the cost and/or risk of getting caught. People still use locks on doors even though they are easy to pick.
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    I could use some CGAN scripts to make a picture of me, which - to your eyes and mine, looks like me - but nevertheless does not have my official physical metrics, and thus I could pre-dispose future AI against recognizing me. I could. But, I won't any more, because Germany will make life a hassle for me.
    - HPsquared 6y ago
      We already have face recognition AI using passport photos by the UK border control. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates
    - dzhiurgis 6y ago
      I've tried one of these scripts. They were pretty poor. The best one was Zuck's profile pic which already looks like deep fake...
- kleiba 6y ago
  That's why they will now require you to have your photo taken either at a passport office or at a photographer's. Although the wording in the article is not quite precise on the latter part.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    This seems reasonable, as the entity taking the photo is essentially attesting the photo is of you.
  - CleanCoder 6y ago
    I thought they always required a professionally taken photo? In Canada you need to go to a photographer (lots of malls and general stores have one) to take your photos and then stamp and sign them at the back making them eligible for passport submission.
    - tdeck 6y ago
      You can take them yourself in the US and print them out, although I think most people don't. I saved about $14 by doing that.
      - CobsterLock 6y ago
        Same here, as long as you have white backdrop (large poster board from an old school project) and are able to crop/print it to the correct dimensions there is no need to get a professional picture. When planning the family vacation, were looking for any ways to cut costs a bit
      - btgeekboy 6y ago
        Same. I had some taken at a local store, and thought they came out terribly. Not worth the money at all. Set up my DSLR in the kitchen on a tripod, digitally placed 2 right-sized copies on a 4x6, and printed them at the drugstore for less than a quarter. I used decent equipment, but a modern phone these days will take an acceptable photo. (In fact, I just searched the iOS App Store at there’s at least a few apps that claim to make acceptable photos.)
- tutfbhuf 6y ago
  > No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. How about analogically alter the photo?
  - XCSme 6y ago
    Print it, use a colored pencil to edit it, scan it.
- Havoc 6y ago
  Yeah they were always quite intense w/ German passports anyway. And the tech seems quite sensitive. e.g. Movember caused the airport gates to flunk me
- qwerty456127 6y ago
  > No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. You will have to submit a new photo without red eye. What if the camera does that automatically without you knowing? Technically that still is "digitally alter a photo to remove red eye" (by the way there is no such thing as an unaltered digital photo). What if the camera lets you know it does and offers to turn that off - should you? What if an import script (which fires as you plug your camera/card) on your PC does that without you knowing? What if you know it's there? How does the result of any of these scenarios considered different from just doing that in Photoshop?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    When I last got my Australian passport renewed, the guy in front of me had his photo rejected because it had been edited. They had some sort of automated analysis that I presume worked off spotting weird JPEG aliasing. If there are signs it's edited, they'll tell you to come back with a different photo. (In this case, there was a photo shop a block away they had an arrangement with.)
    - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
      Presumably that would only work if you hand over the digital photo. Converting it to analog (printing it) would lose all this data. You could then also rescan from the analog and receive a clear jpeg that should pass most tests depending on how good your scan was.
      - plantain 6y ago
        You submit physical photos, which Australia is insanely picky over. My most recent renewal took me three tries across three separate camera stores before I found pictures they were happy with. The review process seems to be manual as far as I could tell, or at least it took O(days) each time for the results to come back.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        These were analog photos. The scan came up on the screen and highlighted edges where the photo had been tweaked.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Huh, I took my own passport photo, adjusted the colors, fixed some red eye and even touched up some blemishes and dark circles under my eyes. Why make a rule if you have absolutely zero intent or ability to enforce it?
  - technothrasher 6y ago
    I did the same thing, and it's obvious they know people are going to do it. So why make the rule? I suspect it is so that you can't argue about whether it is or isn't touched up too much if they don't happen to like it. If they can show any touching up at all, they can drop the hammer on you.
  - ChristianBundy 6y ago
    Selective enforcement. If everything is illegal then you can enforce the laws however you like.
MattGaiser 6y ago
Is there any reason in a digital camera age to not have the passport office agent take the photo?
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  Some people really take pictures seriously and will spend a lot of time taking pictures until they are satisfied.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    I'd expect the passport agent to be empowered to say "no" to that.
    - fhars 6y ago
      That's why it is allowed to use a photo taken by a professional photographer.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        Yes, I know that's why. If that's a security risk, though, I'm saying I don't really mind if it's an official passport agent who has to take the photo, and giving them to power to say "suck it up, it's not a fashion shoot" to avoid drawing things out. DMVs already do this for drivers' licenses. It's odd that passports don't work the same way.
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    They take driver's license photos at the DMV... they don't even let you review them, they just snap them and that is what you get.
    - usrusr 6y ago
      Until this law you could simply bring your own picture for German passport/ID and the clerc taking the application would maybe eyeball you for verification, unlikely to reject anything but the most obvious fakes. Handing in a picture of Mickey Mouse wouldn't just get rejected if they have a particularly bad day, but anything somewhat plausible would likely get through. Driver's license is an even lower standard iirc, because it isn't abused as an ID in everything but name. Driver's licenses merely document qualification and most don't even expire so you will occasionally see some frail elderly person hand around their licence to show off how they were looking at 18 years old.
walterbell 6y ago
> The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a secure connection Is there already a list of approved photographers who would submit directly, i.e. effectively "signing" the digital photo bitstream? What would be the qualification process for such a photographer? Who is liable if the photographer's computer is hacked and the image tampered prior to uploading?
leoh 6y ago
> pictures of two people are digitally combined, making it possible to assign multiple identities to a single document Wild, I wonder how often this has happened.
kleiba 6y ago
Awesome. Until now, you could take your passport photo conveniently at home for next to nothing. I'm sure they will introduce exorbitant fees for a simple picture now.
jdiez17 6y ago
> The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a secure connection So photographers are still able to submit doctored photos. If they really want to stop this practice, the government must have full ownership over the chain of custody of these pictures (including hardware and software), OR be able to detect morphed pictures that are submitted by anyone. In my opinion neither of these strategies will be implemented in practice, so this new law seems pretty pointless.
- simias 6y ago
  If a photographer is caught sending doctored photos (easy to detect after the fact, especially if the photographer does many of these manipulations) they'll be in deep legal trouble. As often, why bother with an overcomplicated technical solution when a social one will do the trick just fine? Oh, who am I kidding, let's just use the blockchain instead!
  - jdiez17 6y ago
    The same deep legal trouble applies to individuals sending manipulated photos, though. And if you are a criminal who wants to obtain a fake passport, it's probably not out of your reach to use social engineering to convince your photographer to plug a USB stick with malware into their computer. It does raise the bar of difficulty slightly, but it also gives criminals plausible deniability.
    - hef19898 6y ago
      I once needed a new ID card as I lost my old one and the passport wasn't valid anymore. I also moved to a new city just before. In order to get a new ID card, usually you hand in your old one, all I needed was a copy of my birth certificate and the registration in tje new city. The latter was easy, as in Germany registration and passports / IDs are done by the same office. The latter one was 10 Euro in stamps, 3 days later I had the copy in my postbox. Out of experience, your name on the box is enough. So, theoretically you could get a new ID, with your picture and prints, but a different name, by ordering a birth certificate and have it mailed to you. No idea what kind of checks where built in in the background, but I hadn't the impression there were a lot. Germany, like 8 years ago. Wouldn't work on scale, so. And way to risky for a one-off.
ab_testing 6y ago
Can I see any samples of digital doppelganger photos. The one on the website does not like a photo of 2 separate people.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Well, that's the point. > Such manipulation of photos is typically invisible to the human eye, the researchers found. (The picture in the article is just a file photo of a passport, though. Not an example of the manipulation.)
  - nebulous1 6y ago
    That quote strikes me as an incorrect interpretation of whatever the researchers said
  - gruez 6y ago
    Is this some sort of adversarial image? Wouldn't it only work on specific neural networks?
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Adversarial against humans; it sounds like the idea is to take two people who already look somewhat similar and produce a photo which as best as possible looks like either.
    - apetresc 6y ago
      It works on the neural networks inside people's skulls. The point is a passport control officer would wave either of two distinct people through based on the same photo.
      - k1t 6y ago
        This isn't related to fooling humans. There is no passport control officer. Immigration use automated barriers and facial recognition to match the person to the digital photo on the passport chip. The trick in the article causes the facial recognition algorithm to accept two different people for the same passport.
elchin 6y ago
German passports have fingerprint info stored in them - won't that prevent someone else from being able to use the passport? I would hope they check fingerprints at the border.
- laszlokorte 6y ago
  Last time I renewed my passport finger prints were optional. If you want to visit certain countries like USA you must provide them but you are not generally required.
- junon 6y ago
  I'm an American expat in Germany. I've never had my fingerprints checked, neither in the US not at any country borders. Could be a privilege stemming from US/EU diplomacy but I've never heard of them checking anyone else's fingerprints.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    EU citizen here; I had the fingerprints checked at US borders.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    Which is fortunate in the EU given the automated passport gates. I can't imagine trying to get Opa to scan his fingerprints in a way that satisfies the automated checking.
  - the_svd_doctor 6y ago
    For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in ~100% of the cases at airports. Land borders seem to be an exception. For the EU it's very rare as far as I know, both for EU citizens or foreigners.
    - vkou 6y ago
      > For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in ~100% of the cases at airports. Not for Canadians - unless this recently changed, fingerprints are not taken for a Canadian flying in from Canada, or from Mexico.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
josch 6y ago
This ban probably comes as a response to this activist project by the Peng! collective: https://pen.gg/campaign/mask-id-2/ https://pen.gg/campaign/mask-id-2/ where they used morphed portraits for passports.
- doe88 6y ago
  So if I understand correctly, the kind of attack enabled by this manipulation is to provide a way for non-passport holders to pass custom controls by using the legitimate passport of the person they morphed their picture with. Is there any other useful kind of attack possible with this scheme?
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    Sure, you go through one of the automated gates, pretty common in most European airports now. Face recognition gives the green light, since (part of) the picture is a perfect match. A human may not be fooled, automated face recognition may.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      from the article: >Such manipulation of photos is typically invisible to the human eye, the researchers found. I think its more like attacking a machine learning model - the difference in the photos may not be apparent at all, so a human reviewer might not catch something.
- joyj2nd 6y ago
  That is unlikely. Germany can't get enough from "non-integrating gap countries"-immigrants. They have the reputation of integrating really well into western society.
junon 6y ago
I wonder how this will affect the subway station photo booths. For those that don't know, at least in Berlin (possibly other places) many U-Bahn (Subway) stations have photo booths for passport photos. They're apparently verifiable by the government, but I've never really understood how. This sounds like those booths will no longer work. Anyone have any more info?
_ph_ 6y ago
The funny thing is, as I recently had to renew my ID card, I would have been happy, if the local authorities had offered to take my picture. They rejected the picture I brought, because they claimed my head was angled not straight ahead enough and I had to run out to find someone to take a picture of me. Luckily they could refer me to a local shop nearby which was open at that time, but considering the low quality of those ID photos, having a web cam in the office would be an obvious and easy improvement both to the security and the convenience of the process. They already had a fancy tablet, where I had to provide my signature digitally.
- kolinko 6y ago
  Mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I prefer not having to spend an extra hour to find a photo place each time I need new documents. On the other hand, I have a good photo on my documents :)
- microtherion 6y ago
  Yes, here in Switzerland all identity photos are taken in booths at the passport office, which has the advantage that any photo they take is, by definition, compliant with their requirements regarding angle, facial expression, etc.
  - rciorba 6y ago
    It's the same in Romania.
  - eitland 6y ago
    Same in Norway. It has been like this for a number of years already. Somewhat funny story: I and my wife renewed our passports this year and we both look a lot nicer: 10 years ago the requirement that we should not smile was enforced so strict and hamfistedly that I looked like a mugshot somewhat like the doom guy and my beautiful wife looked old and sad. I remember it taking a while before they thought I looked angry enough 10 years ago. This year they only required that we didn't actually smile so the process was a lot quicker, police will probably not harass me on border crossings and my wife doesn't look like she is 20 years older ;-)
ChuckMcM 6y ago
Nice hack, now wondering if you can wear the 'Angelina Jolie' glasses frame[1] for your picture. Funny story, when my passport was stolen in London I had to go to the US Embassy there to get a replacement, I brought a picture that I got in the tube station from a "passport photo machine". The embassy rejected it, requiring instead that I go to a specific photographer who was located about 2 blocks away. That guy charged me 20 pounds sterling for two black and white photos. My wife kept that one after it had expired because in the photo I have a smoldering look of disgust :-) [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/3/13507542/facial-recognition-glasses-trick-impersonate-fool https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/3/13507542/facial-recogniti...
- kube-system 6y ago
  In the US you can’t wear glasses at all for your passport photo, even if you always wear glasses.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - astura 6y ago
    This is really really new, I've owned three passports (including my current one) where I'm wearing glasses. Apparently it's cause people can't figure out how to take a photo with glasses properly. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel_old/en/news/no-glasses-nov-1st.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel_old/en/news/no-glass...
    - kube-system 6y ago
      I wouldn't say it's really that new, assuming an even distribution of passports over time, close to 40% of active US passports probably fall under those rules.
      - tallanvor 6y ago
        That would still mean 60% of passport holders will be surprised by this change. I hadn't heard of it, and I'll need to renew my passport in a little over a year.
comnetxr 6y ago
Is this AI generated text? It doesn't provide any context a normal human would want. The attempt at providing context feels exactly like an AI searched a database of summaries of research for something related.
- panopticon 6y ago
  Reuters and Axios tend to have very... terse articles. Some being no more than a sentence or two.
Luc 6y ago
When I had my passport picture taken, it was in a booth with software that assured the resulting image conformed to all the rules.
supernova87a 6y ago
Eh, going to all the trouble of manipulating the photo and getting around Germany's laws are a waste of time. All you do is go to Belgium, and bribe a local mayor, where they have the ridiculous system of having local administration and control over the issuing (and mysterious "loss") of passports. Belgian passports are rife with fraud.
- the_svd_doctor 6y ago
  Yes they are issued by the cities (so pictures and fingerprints are taken there) but are of course created by the interior ministry, not by the cities themselves as far as I know. Same for the national IDs. Are there particular evidence of fraud ? It's the second time I see this comment recently. Belgium has the Registre National where everything is centrally stored (including passport data, you can see all passports and IDs issued in your name there for instance), it's not totally a city-by-city thing.
Koshkin 6y ago
The whole paper passport thing is just ridiculous in the age of ubiquitous digital communications and photography. Any official requiring your picture could take it and send it to an AI for identification right on the spot.
- cygx 6y ago
  There's currently no national database storing pictures of all German citizen, and I for one would oppose its creation.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    Why would you oppose the database of all citizens to also having pictures in it?
    - cygx 6y ago
      It's a step on the road to mass surveillance.
    - wasmitnetzen 6y ago
      There is also no single database of all German citizens. Privacy is very important in Germany.
      - germanier 6y ago
        There is since 2007, at the Bundeszentralamt für Steuern. In addition, many decentral databases (such as local registration databases) can be comprehensively and automatically queried by many individual authorities.
  - readhn 6y ago
    There is. Its just not official.
    - tchaffee 6y ago
thadk 6y ago
Today in eigenvectors...
tekknolagi 6y ago
This is kind of weird. I had my German ID (not passport photo, but visa ID & student ID) photo taken at an official photographer's, and he spent a good deal of time photoshopping my face to make me look more attractive. This is the only country I've ever seen this done. They certainly don't do this in the US...
allendoerfer 6y ago
I have recently renewed my passport in Germany and took the photo at the passport office. The photo was printed out by a machine next to the entrance from which I carried it up two stairs to the clerk. While the new law was not in place at that time yet, it would have been trivial for me or any person going to the lengths of combining faces in a photo to adjust the layout of my own print to the one done by the machine and add its logo to it.
- germanier 6y ago
  That's how it was done now for a long time. The new machines send the picture electronically to the clerk and don't print them anymore.
soufron 6y ago
This is the paradox of Solow pushed to the next level. You see digital stuff everyhwere, except in the balance sheet... because everytime you use digital technologies to simplify something, it ends up complexifying something else :D
zitterbewegung 6y ago
Thats not the only way you can fool facial recognition systems. You can get clear glasses that when put on will fool the system into seeing a different face. See https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sbhagava/papers/face-rec-ccs16.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sbhagava/papers/face-rec-ccs16.pdf
ericol 6y ago
I had to renew my German passport last year. I live in Buenos Aires (I'm from Argentina) and the embassy refers you to a couple of places where you can get your photo taken. I went to the place that was close to a bus stop in the bus line I was using to get to the embassy. It was a rather badly lit shop; I asked for them to take me a photo for the passport, and they did it with a rather lousy cellphone, and printed it right away in one of those auto machines that you can see everywhere you can print digital photos. They guy cut it with scissors. Guess it goes without saying that it was of very bad quality; and yes, that is the picture that is now in my passport. I do not need to alter it in any way, it's so bad probably my brother could enter Europe with it.
refurb 6y ago
It fascinating seeing the different passport requirements by country. It's a well known fact that intelligence agencies will use other countries passports as cover. Israel is well known for this. Which countries would you use? Well, a US passport isn't going to be a good cover in many countries, so it's often more neutral countries like Canada, Australia, Sweden. Canada has tightened up their passport requires a few times after a rash of stolen and forged Canadian passports. Smaller countries with less security issues have much more lax passport requirements. A friend was able to get a Vietnamese passport through her mom. She brought original birth certificates, etc. They were fine with just photocopies (that could obviously be changed).
_jal 6y ago
Are there any examples of "doppelganger" photos online? Now I'm curious about what Germany is using to do the matching.
nana- 6y ago
This was allowed ?
virtualritz 6y ago
I have an appointment to get a new (German) passport next Week. I'll be curious if this will be in effect/applied by then.
sly010 6y ago
Some other European countries already require in-office photography. Hungary is pretty strict about this, most Hungarian embassies will take your photo and fingerprint to issue you a tourist visa. They just use what looks like a webcam.
eqtn 6y ago
In Indian passport offices, we cannot bring the photos instead there is dslr hooked to the computer to take photos when i went to take passport in 2010.

258 points by aloukissas 6y ago

Surely manipulating the photo beyond tweaking exposure, white balance, etc. was already banned? It sounds like they're just taking steps to make it harder to do the already-banned thing. Hell, you can't even fix red-eye in the US: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/photos.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app... > Can I remove red-eye from my photo? No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. You will have to submit a new photo without red eye.

the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
Currently you can bring your own picture which makes it possible to do certain modifications beforehand.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Possible, yes. Permitted, no. The "photographer submits via a secure form" approach detailed in the article leaves this loophole pretty open, too, unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access.
  - the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
    > unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access. Passport picture photographers will need a license in Germany.
  - mtnGoat 6y ago
    The blackmarket is very much alive and well in Germany, allowing photographers to verify anything is silly, they can be bribed. :x In fact when I lived in Austria, within a couple months I had access to more black market goods/services then I did after growing up in the US for 25 years. I would imagine Germany is the same.
    - possiblelion 6y ago
      What do you mean by this? What kind of black market goods did you have access to?
      - fluffything 6y ago
        Given location and user name, probably milk.
        ilammy 6y ago
        Seem sketchy, given > after growing up in the US for 25 years and the average lifespan of the species being 12-15 years.
      - oh_sigh 6y ago
        I don't know about Austria bit there is a healthy market in Sweden for anything which is heavily taxed - mainly alcohol, cigarettes.
      - mattr47 6y ago
        Alcohol and cigarettes are always on the black market close to US military bases. Prices are always cheaper for service members and their family on base.
      - xwdv 6y ago
        Databases of credit card numbers on USB sticks, etc
    - Spivak 6y ago
      The point isn't that they can be bribed, it's that the photographer has to attach their name to the photo and certify that it hasn't been altered or tampered with. It adds the ability to go after the photographer if they gov't ever discovers tampering has been done.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        New business model. Pop-up photoshop. Like the countless other businesses popping up, operating for a few months, washing money, closing down, owners gone, employees unknown, and so on.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    Not really: a paper trail and a process that requires the photographer to be knowingly and provably complicit would already create a pretty high barrier. Not an insurmountably high barrier, but no amount of vetting could.
  - eulenteufel 6y ago
    When I got my first drivers license (Germany) the photographer actually digitally removed some moles from my face and did other editing to make the picture appear more good looking. I was a bit baffled as the picture is supposed to identify me but didn't say anything. Since then I always take ID-pictures in a photo booth. It really doesn't need a professional to take an acceptable picture. I could imagine a photo booth outputting a digital copy of the picture with signature so it is clear to the registration office that the picture has not been meddled with.
    - dspig 6y ago
      Or that the photograph of the large photograph the booth took a picture of has not been meddled with.
  - ibejoeb 6y ago
    Is there some sort of camera fingerprinting technology out there, then, that distinguishes between processing done on the camera vs. post-processing in software? If not, how are we even going to tell, short of having signed files coming off the chip?
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Makes it possible or makes it legal?
  - adambyrtek 6y ago
    We developers sometimes struggle with the distinction. The point of laws and regulations is usually not to make fraud technically impossible, but increase the cost and/or risk of getting caught. People still use locks on doors even though they are easy to pick.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  I could use some CGAN scripts to make a picture of me, which - to your eyes and mine, looks like me - but nevertheless does not have my official physical metrics, and thus I could pre-dispose future AI against recognizing me. I could. But, I won't any more, because Germany will make life a hassle for me.
  - HPsquared 6y ago
    We already have face recognition AI using passport photos by the UK border control. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    I've tried one of these scripts. They were pretty poor. The best one was Zuck's profile pic which already looks like deep fake...
kleiba 6y ago
That's why they will now require you to have your photo taken either at a passport office or at a photographer's. Although the wording in the article is not quite precise on the latter part.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  This seems reasonable, as the entity taking the photo is essentially attesting the photo is of you.
- CleanCoder 6y ago
  I thought they always required a professionally taken photo? In Canada you need to go to a photographer (lots of malls and general stores have one) to take your photos and then stamp and sign them at the back making them eligible for passport submission.
  - tdeck 6y ago
    You can take them yourself in the US and print them out, although I think most people don't. I saved about $14 by doing that.
    - CobsterLock 6y ago
      Same here, as long as you have white backdrop (large poster board from an old school project) and are able to crop/print it to the correct dimensions there is no need to get a professional picture. When planning the family vacation, were looking for any ways to cut costs a bit
    - btgeekboy 6y ago
      Same. I had some taken at a local store, and thought they came out terribly. Not worth the money at all. Set up my DSLR in the kitchen on a tripod, digitally placed 2 right-sized copies on a 4x6, and printed them at the drugstore for less than a quarter. I used decent equipment, but a modern phone these days will take an acceptable photo. (In fact, I just searched the iOS App Store at there’s at least a few apps that claim to make acceptable photos.)
tutfbhuf 6y ago
> No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. How about analogically alter the photo?
- XCSme 6y ago
  Print it, use a colored pencil to edit it, scan it.
Havoc 6y ago
Yeah they were always quite intense w/ German passports anyway. And the tech seems quite sensitive. e.g. Movember caused the airport gates to flunk me
qwerty456127 6y ago
> No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye. You will have to submit a new photo without red eye. What if the camera does that automatically without you knowing? Technically that still is "digitally alter a photo to remove red eye" (by the way there is no such thing as an unaltered digital photo). What if the camera lets you know it does and offers to turn that off - should you? What if an import script (which fires as you plug your camera/card) on your PC does that without you knowing? What if you know it's there? How does the result of any of these scenarios considered different from just doing that in Photoshop?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  When I last got my Australian passport renewed, the guy in front of me had his photo rejected because it had been edited. They had some sort of automated analysis that I presume worked off spotting weird JPEG aliasing. If there are signs it's edited, they'll tell you to come back with a different photo. (In this case, there was a photo shop a block away they had an arrangement with.)
  - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
    Presumably that would only work if you hand over the digital photo. Converting it to analog (printing it) would lose all this data. You could then also rescan from the analog and receive a clear jpeg that should pass most tests depending on how good your scan was.
    - plantain 6y ago
      You submit physical photos, which Australia is insanely picky over. My most recent renewal took me three tries across three separate camera stores before I found pictures they were happy with. The review process seems to be manual as far as I could tell, or at least it took O(days) each time for the results to come back.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      These were analog photos. The scan came up on the screen and highlighted edges where the photo had been tweaked.
jjeaff 6y ago
Huh, I took my own passport photo, adjusted the colors, fixed some red eye and even touched up some blemishes and dark circles under my eyes. Why make a rule if you have absolutely zero intent or ability to enforce it?
- technothrasher 6y ago
  I did the same thing, and it's obvious they know people are going to do it. So why make the rule? I suspect it is so that you can't argue about whether it is or isn't touched up too much if they don't happen to like it. If they can show any touching up at all, they can drop the hammer on you.
- ChristianBundy 6y ago
  Selective enforcement. If everything is illegal then you can enforce the laws however you like.

MattGaiser 6y ago

Is there any reason in a digital camera age to not have the passport office agent take the photo?

the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
Some people really take pictures seriously and will spend a lot of time taking pictures until they are satisfied.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  I'd expect the passport agent to be empowered to say "no" to that.
  - fhars 6y ago
    That's why it is allowed to use a photo taken by a professional photographer.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      Yes, I know that's why. If that's a security risk, though, I'm saying I don't really mind if it's an official passport agent who has to take the photo, and giving them to power to say "suck it up, it's not a fashion shoot" to avoid drawing things out. DMVs already do this for drivers' licenses. It's odd that passports don't work the same way.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  They take driver's license photos at the DMV... they don't even let you review them, they just snap them and that is what you get.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    Until this law you could simply bring your own picture for German passport/ID and the clerc taking the application would maybe eyeball you for verification, unlikely to reject anything but the most obvious fakes. Handing in a picture of Mickey Mouse wouldn't just get rejected if they have a particularly bad day, but anything somewhat plausible would likely get through. Driver's license is an even lower standard iirc, because it isn't abused as an ID in everything but name. Driver's licenses merely document qualification and most don't even expire so you will occasionally see some frail elderly person hand around their licence to show off how they were looking at 18 years old.

walterbell 6y ago

> The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a secure connection Is there already a list of approved photographers who would submit directly, i.e. effectively "signing" the digital photo bitstream? What would be the qualification process for such a photographer? Who is liable if the photographer's computer is hacked and the image tampered prior to uploading?

leoh 6y ago

> pictures of two people are digitally combined, making it possible to assign multiple identities to a single document Wild, I wonder how often this has happened.

kleiba 6y ago

Awesome. Until now, you could take your passport photo conveniently at home for next to nothing. I'm sure they will introduce exorbitant fees for a simple picture now.

jdiez17 6y ago

> The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a secure connection So photographers are still able to submit doctored photos. If they really want to stop this practice, the government must have full ownership over the chain of custody of these pictures (including hardware and software), OR be able to detect morphed pictures that are submitted by anyone. In my opinion neither of these strategies will be implemented in practice, so this new law seems pretty pointless.

simias 6y ago
If a photographer is caught sending doctored photos (easy to detect after the fact, especially if the photographer does many of these manipulations) they'll be in deep legal trouble. As often, why bother with an overcomplicated technical solution when a social one will do the trick just fine? Oh, who am I kidding, let's just use the blockchain instead!
- jdiez17 6y ago
  The same deep legal trouble applies to individuals sending manipulated photos, though. And if you are a criminal who wants to obtain a fake passport, it's probably not out of your reach to use social engineering to convince your photographer to plug a USB stick with malware into their computer. It does raise the bar of difficulty slightly, but it also gives criminals plausible deniability.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    I once needed a new ID card as I lost my old one and the passport wasn't valid anymore. I also moved to a new city just before. In order to get a new ID card, usually you hand in your old one, all I needed was a copy of my birth certificate and the registration in tje new city. The latter was easy, as in Germany registration and passports / IDs are done by the same office. The latter one was 10 Euro in stamps, 3 days later I had the copy in my postbox. Out of experience, your name on the box is enough. So, theoretically you could get a new ID, with your picture and prints, but a different name, by ordering a birth certificate and have it mailed to you. No idea what kind of checks where built in in the background, but I hadn't the impression there were a lot. Germany, like 8 years ago. Wouldn't work on scale, so. And way to risky for a one-off.

ab_testing 6y ago

Can I see any samples of digital doppelganger photos. The one on the website does not like a photo of 2 separate people.

ceejayoz 6y ago
Well, that's the point. > Such manipulation of photos is typically invisible to the human eye, the researchers found. (The picture in the article is just a file photo of a passport, though. Not an example of the manipulation.)
- nebulous1 6y ago
  That quote strikes me as an incorrect interpretation of whatever the researchers said
- gruez 6y ago
  Is this some sort of adversarial image? Wouldn't it only work on specific neural networks?
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Adversarial against humans; it sounds like the idea is to take two people who already look somewhat similar and produce a photo which as best as possible looks like either.
  - apetresc 6y ago
    It works on the neural networks inside people's skulls. The point is a passport control officer would wave either of two distinct people through based on the same photo.
    - k1t 6y ago
      This isn't related to fooling humans. There is no passport control officer. Immigration use automated barriers and facial recognition to match the person to the digital photo on the passport chip. The trick in the article causes the facial recognition algorithm to accept two different people for the same passport.

elchin 6y ago

German passports have fingerprint info stored in them - won't that prevent someone else from being able to use the passport? I would hope they check fingerprints at the border.

laszlokorte 6y ago
Last time I renewed my passport finger prints were optional. If you want to visit certain countries like USA you must provide them but you are not generally required.
junon 6y ago
I'm an American expat in Germany. I've never had my fingerprints checked, neither in the US not at any country borders. Could be a privilege stemming from US/EU diplomacy but I've never heard of them checking anyone else's fingerprints.
- vetinari 6y ago
  EU citizen here; I had the fingerprints checked at US borders.
- xxpor 6y ago
  Which is fortunate in the EU given the automated passport gates. I can't imagine trying to get Opa to scan his fingerprints in a way that satisfies the automated checking.
- the_svd_doctor 6y ago
  For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in ~100% of the cases at airports. Land borders seem to be an exception. For the EU it's very rare as far as I know, both for EU citizens or foreigners.
  - vkou 6y ago
    > For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in ~100% of the cases at airports. Not for Canadians - unless this recently changed, fingerprints are not taken for a Canadian flying in from Canada, or from Mexico.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

josch 6y ago

This ban probably comes as a response to this activist project by the Peng! collective: https://pen.gg/campaign/mask-id-2/ https://pen.gg/campaign/mask-id-2/ where they used morphed portraits for passports.

doe88 6y ago
So if I understand correctly, the kind of attack enabled by this manipulation is to provide a way for non-passport holders to pass custom controls by using the legitimate passport of the person they morphed their picture with. Is there any other useful kind of attack possible with this scheme?
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  Sure, you go through one of the automated gates, pretty common in most European airports now. Face recognition gives the green light, since (part of) the picture is a perfect match. A human may not be fooled, automated face recognition may.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    from the article: >Such manipulation of photos is typically invisible to the human eye, the researchers found. I think its more like attacking a machine learning model - the difference in the photos may not be apparent at all, so a human reviewer might not catch something.
joyj2nd 6y ago
That is unlikely. Germany can't get enough from "non-integrating gap countries"-immigrants. They have the reputation of integrating really well into western society.

junon 6y ago

I wonder how this will affect the subway station photo booths. For those that don't know, at least in Berlin (possibly other places) many U-Bahn (Subway) stations have photo booths for passport photos. They're apparently verifiable by the government, but I've never really understood how. This sounds like those booths will no longer work. Anyone have any more info?

_ph_ 6y ago

The funny thing is, as I recently had to renew my ID card, I would have been happy, if the local authorities had offered to take my picture. They rejected the picture I brought, because they claimed my head was angled not straight ahead enough and I had to run out to find someone to take a picture of me. Luckily they could refer me to a local shop nearby which was open at that time, but considering the low quality of those ID photos, having a web cam in the office would be an obvious and easy improvement both to the security and the convenience of the process. They already had a fancy tablet, where I had to provide my signature digitally.

kolinko 6y ago
Mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I prefer not having to spend an extra hour to find a photo place each time I need new documents. On the other hand, I have a good photo on my documents :)
microtherion 6y ago
Yes, here in Switzerland all identity photos are taken in booths at the passport office, which has the advantage that any photo they take is, by definition, compliant with their requirements regarding angle, facial expression, etc.
- rciorba 6y ago
  It's the same in Romania.
- eitland 6y ago
  Same in Norway. It has been like this for a number of years already. Somewhat funny story: I and my wife renewed our passports this year and we both look a lot nicer: 10 years ago the requirement that we should not smile was enforced so strict and hamfistedly that I looked like a mugshot somewhat like the doom guy and my beautiful wife looked old and sad. I remember it taking a while before they thought I looked angry enough 10 years ago. This year they only required that we didn't actually smile so the process was a lot quicker, police will probably not harass me on border crossings and my wife doesn't look like she is 20 years older ;-)

ChuckMcM 6y ago

Nice hack, now wondering if you can wear the 'Angelina Jolie' glasses frame[1] for your picture. Funny story, when my passport was stolen in London I had to go to the US Embassy there to get a replacement, I brought a picture that I got in the tube station from a "passport photo machine". The embassy rejected it, requiring instead that I go to a specific photographer who was located about 2 blocks away. That guy charged me 20 pounds sterling for two black and white photos. My wife kept that one after it had expired because in the photo I have a smoldering look of disgust :-) [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/3/13507542/facial-recognition-glasses-trick-impersonate-fool https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/3/13507542/facial-recogniti...

kube-system 6y ago
In the US you can’t wear glasses at all for your passport photo, even if you always wear glasses.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- astura 6y ago
  This is really really new, I've owned three passports (including my current one) where I'm wearing glasses. Apparently it's cause people can't figure out how to take a photo with glasses properly. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel_old/en/news/no-glasses-nov-1st.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel_old/en/news/no-glass...
  - kube-system 6y ago
    I wouldn't say it's really that new, assuming an even distribution of passports over time, close to 40% of active US passports probably fall under those rules.
    - tallanvor 6y ago
      That would still mean 60% of passport holders will be surprised by this change. I hadn't heard of it, and I'll need to renew my passport in a little over a year.

comnetxr 6y ago

Is this AI generated text? It doesn't provide any context a normal human would want. The attempt at providing context feels exactly like an AI searched a database of summaries of research for something related.

panopticon 6y ago
Reuters and Axios tend to have very... terse articles. Some being no more than a sentence or two.

Luc 6y ago

When I had my passport picture taken, it was in a booth with software that assured the resulting image conformed to all the rules.

supernova87a 6y ago

Eh, going to all the trouble of manipulating the photo and getting around Germany's laws are a waste of time. All you do is go to Belgium, and bribe a local mayor, where they have the ridiculous system of having local administration and control over the issuing (and mysterious "loss") of passports. Belgian passports are rife with fraud.

the_svd_doctor 6y ago
Yes they are issued by the cities (so pictures and fingerprints are taken there) but are of course created by the interior ministry, not by the cities themselves as far as I know. Same for the national IDs. Are there particular evidence of fraud ? It's the second time I see this comment recently. Belgium has the Registre National where everything is centrally stored (including passport data, you can see all passports and IDs issued in your name there for instance), it's not totally a city-by-city thing.

Koshkin 6y ago

The whole paper passport thing is just ridiculous in the age of ubiquitous digital communications and photography. Any official requiring your picture could take it and send it to an AI for identification right on the spot.

cygx 6y ago
There's currently no national database storing pictures of all German citizen, and I for one would oppose its creation.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  Why would you oppose the database of all citizens to also having pictures in it?
  - cygx 6y ago
    It's a step on the road to mass surveillance.
  - wasmitnetzen 6y ago
    There is also no single database of all German citizens. Privacy is very important in Germany.
    - germanier 6y ago
      There is since 2007, at the Bundeszentralamt für Steuern. In addition, many decentral databases (such as local registration databases) can be comprehensively and automatically queried by many individual authorities.
- readhn 6y ago
  There is. Its just not official.
  - tchaffee 6y ago

thadk 6y ago

Today in eigenvectors...

tekknolagi 6y ago

This is kind of weird. I had my German ID (not passport photo, but visa ID & student ID) photo taken at an official photographer's, and he spent a good deal of time photoshopping my face to make me look more attractive. This is the only country I've ever seen this done. They certainly don't do this in the US...

allendoerfer 6y ago

I have recently renewed my passport in Germany and took the photo at the passport office. The photo was printed out by a machine next to the entrance from which I carried it up two stairs to the clerk. While the new law was not in place at that time yet, it would have been trivial for me or any person going to the lengths of combining faces in a photo to adjust the layout of my own print to the one done by the machine and add its logo to it.

germanier 6y ago
That's how it was done now for a long time. The new machines send the picture electronically to the clerk and don't print them anymore.

soufron 6y ago

This is the paradox of Solow pushed to the next level. You see digital stuff everyhwere, except in the balance sheet... because everytime you use digital technologies to simplify something, it ends up complexifying something else :D

zitterbewegung 6y ago

Thats not the only way you can fool facial recognition systems. You can get clear glasses that when put on will fool the system into seeing a different face. See https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sbhagava/papers/face-rec-ccs16.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sbhagava/papers/face-rec-ccs16.pdf

ericol 6y ago

I had to renew my German passport last year. I live in Buenos Aires (I'm from Argentina) and the embassy refers you to a couple of places where you can get your photo taken. I went to the place that was close to a bus stop in the bus line I was using to get to the embassy. It was a rather badly lit shop; I asked for them to take me a photo for the passport, and they did it with a rather lousy cellphone, and printed it right away in one of those auto machines that you can see everywhere you can print digital photos. They guy cut it with scissors. Guess it goes without saying that it was of very bad quality; and yes, that is the picture that is now in my passport. I do not need to alter it in any way, it's so bad probably my brother could enter Europe with it.

refurb 6y ago

It fascinating seeing the different passport requirements by country. It's a well known fact that intelligence agencies will use other countries passports as cover. Israel is well known for this. Which countries would you use? Well, a US passport isn't going to be a good cover in many countries, so it's often more neutral countries like Canada, Australia, Sweden. Canada has tightened up their passport requires a few times after a rash of stolen and forged Canadian passports. Smaller countries with less security issues have much more lax passport requirements. A friend was able to get a Vietnamese passport through her mom. She brought original birth certificates, etc. They were fine with just photocopies (that could obviously be changed).

_jal 6y ago

Are there any examples of "doppelganger" photos online? Now I'm curious about what Germany is using to do the matching.

nana- 6y ago

This was allowed ?

virtualritz 6y ago

I have an appointment to get a new (German) passport next Week. I'll be curious if this will be in effect/applied by then.

sly010 6y ago

Some other European countries already require in-office photography. Hungary is pretty strict about this, most Hungarian embassies will take your photo and fingerprint to issue you a tourist visa. They just use what looks like a webcam.

eqtn 6y ago

In Indian passport offices, we cannot bring the photos instead there is dslr hooked to the computer to take photos when i went to take passport in 2010.