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How is this a natural experiment? Anarchism isn't just "when there are no police" Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs w

How is this a natural experiment? Anarchism isn't just "when there are no police" Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society. Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? look how many people in just the US riots alone cooperated to form medical stations, to work against police tactics, to make sure protestors had water and snacks etc..

BurningFrog 6y ago
> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? Don't know about that, but there is ABSOLUTELY enough selfish/predatory/angry people in any population that will commit violent acts for profit and pleasure if the risks of being brought to justice disappears. I would not have guessed it would erupt as fast as it did in Montreal, but empirically, it did. I expect day 2 would have been a lot worse. Pray that we never find out :) > Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society Well, some people never find their needs met...
- wahern 6y ago
  Researchers studying sociopathy often put the number somewhere between 2-8%, with variance seemingly driven by cultural and other environmental factors. Whether or not you believe that sociopathy is a distinctive thing, it's hard to dispute that a not insignificant subset of human populations are primarily restrained by deterrence alone--specifically the threat of punishment. That doesn't mean such people are evil or intrinsically violent, they're just opportunistic to the point of almost being mechanically opportunistic. I'm a glass is half full kind of person so I see factors like empathy as a defining characteristic of humanity, but even I can't deny that such internalized inhibitions, biological and cultural, which mute anti-social behaviors aren't universal.
  - JPKab 6y ago
    Extremely well said point. I think a lot of people in our profession have come from more privileged backgrounds. This causes them to not really encounter the kinds of people that you are talking about at least not in a way that they know the people are psychopathic. I realize now that I was probably quite damaged by having a childhood like I did. I suspect that I have a warped view of the world in many ways but one thing I do know is the capacity for evil in some people that will come out as soon as they get the opportunity and a little bit of power.
    - metrokoi 6y ago
      The privilege surrounding discussions of defunding police in western social media and forums is incredibly overwhelming. We won the lottery in being born in (relatively) extremely stable societies, and have no idea what it is like to live in a society with a far weaker police force like Mexico or Somalia. We are insulated from the harsher realities of the brutality of human nature. Mexico has huge swaths of territory in which police are powerless and cartels rule. There is not a single place on Earth that I am aware of where a lack of police force is not filled by an often times more violent group. What is to stop that power vacuum from being filled?
  - zkomp 6y ago
    Generally agree but not that they are deterred by punishment alone, no. They will do whatever they get away with. Which would imply - “the right thing” must also be objectively better to the individual, not only backed by moral+force, for it to work generally. (Not to mention the sociopaths are already present in politics and police. Drawn to power)
- chipperyman573 6y ago
  Day 2 may have been a lot better as store owners started to take matters into their own hands. We only saw the first day, which many people were unprepared for. A lot less people would be willing to loot if they had a friend who died after getting shot by a store owner with a shotgun. Not that this is really any better, I'm just trying to say that we can't really reach any conclusions from one day of this experiment
  - awb 6y ago
    Pretty sure gangs would take over. Power abhors a vacuum.
    - thephyber 6y ago
      Yeah, but police units and private security firms are a form of "gang", just with different pay masters and accountability.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Notably accountability to the people (in principle if imperfect in practice), which is an important distinction indeed.
    - lowdose 6y ago
      Oh the greeks! Great application of the quote. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_(physics)
    - 51Cards 6y ago
      This. It would quickly devolve into a power struggle of who could amass the most strength. You only have to sample the mob era to see what would happen, where shop owners for example were paying for protection. In the absense of any form of control there will always be people that will take advantage and sway others to their cause.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
- vncecartersknee 6y ago
  > Well, some people never find their needs met... enormous numbers of people in the US are living literally a paycheck or a medical emergency away from bankruptcy and homelessness
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I was implying that some people always want more, regardless of how much they already have. But sure, I agree that those desperate people can also be dangerous.
    - geomark 6y ago
      Not sure whom to attribute this quote to, but "Most of the world's problems are caused by two types of people: those who don't have enough, and those who never have enough."
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Would this happen IF we had free guns for the populace who want them who pass background/mental evals (make owning a gun a right for all). Then we democratize gun ownership. Next we create UBI so nobody has to steal to put food on the table, and guarantee jobs for anyone who wants one, and healthcare for all. you end the poverty and almost-poverty and you stop a lot of the reasons behind WHY people loot when there's an opportunity to do so.
  - metrokoi 6y ago
    What happens when a burglar is shot by a home owner and there is a dispute on whether or not it was justified? Almost every single act of self defense would be heavily disputed. You would have "vigilantes" dispensing what they see as justice by trying to apprehend the home owner, who would then again be forced to defend themselves. You would need a higher entity of authority to arbitrate these disputes, possibly with lethal force, which would essentially be just another form of police.
  - psexec 6y ago
    I live in a city with a vandalism problem. People throw benches into the river, break glass panes, and perform other similar feats just for the fun of it. Oh, and the ubiquitous designer drugs ads on every damn wall. Well, it _was_ a problem until the government put cameras on every street corner and the police started tracking down and punishing every one of the vandals. How would gun ownership help with this? I look out of a window at 2 AM and see a couple of guys destroying a bus stop. Should I grab my gun and start shooting at them?
    - gremlinsinc 6y ago
      The guns are more of a equalization of power. The right loves guns, but would they if they knew every liberal had twice as many guns as they probably have? that was my point w/ guns...
Supermancho 6y ago
> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? 'Completely' is a meaningless term. Animals behave selfishly in almost every choice (even in altruism) as part of the survival instinct. There is a question of degree and there is a distribution curve that hasn't been fully explored. For some people, some desperate or casual situations lead to barbaric (lack of a better term) behavior, when possible, for some portion of the population. Even with a police force, the curve exists and we experience the effects.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  The natural state of people is to form into increasingly larger bands under increasingly hierarchical leadership whose power provides them with security and liberty. When you take away those power structures, everything indeed devolves back into chaos—this is the definition of a civilization collapsing. Anarchy is incompatible with security and consequently with peace and liberty as well.
philwelch 6y ago
> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? All of them? No. Enough of them? Yes.
closeparen 6y ago
Society has a role in meeting needs. If society burns whenever there are unmet needs, it will never get its act together to meet them.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
It is the natural state of criminals. Seattle suburbs were victimized by organized groups driving in car caravans from mall to mall. This occurred while police were busy in greater Seattle.
remarkEon 6y ago
>Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? Uhhh Yes? This is the natural state of Man, and has been for 10,000 years. My goodness, we've only gotten over it in the last 1000 years (and that's being extremely charitable). We're thankfully at a point where we've been able to regulate ourselves with some rules here and there. But that natural state of Man is the raison d'être for those rules in the first place.

BurningFrog 6y ago

> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? Don't know about that, but there is ABSOLUTELY enough selfish/predatory/angry people in any population that will commit violent acts for profit and pleasure if the risks of being brought to justice disappears. I would not have guessed it would erupt as fast as it did in Montreal, but empirically, it did. I expect day 2 would have been a lot worse. Pray that we never find out :) > Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society Well, some people never find their needs met...

wahern 6y ago
Researchers studying sociopathy often put the number somewhere between 2-8%, with variance seemingly driven by cultural and other environmental factors. Whether or not you believe that sociopathy is a distinctive thing, it's hard to dispute that a not insignificant subset of human populations are primarily restrained by deterrence alone--specifically the threat of punishment. That doesn't mean such people are evil or intrinsically violent, they're just opportunistic to the point of almost being mechanically opportunistic. I'm a glass is half full kind of person so I see factors like empathy as a defining characteristic of humanity, but even I can't deny that such internalized inhibitions, biological and cultural, which mute anti-social behaviors aren't universal.
- JPKab 6y ago
  Extremely well said point. I think a lot of people in our profession have come from more privileged backgrounds. This causes them to not really encounter the kinds of people that you are talking about at least not in a way that they know the people are psychopathic. I realize now that I was probably quite damaged by having a childhood like I did. I suspect that I have a warped view of the world in many ways but one thing I do know is the capacity for evil in some people that will come out as soon as they get the opportunity and a little bit of power.
  - metrokoi 6y ago
    The privilege surrounding discussions of defunding police in western social media and forums is incredibly overwhelming. We won the lottery in being born in (relatively) extremely stable societies, and have no idea what it is like to live in a society with a far weaker police force like Mexico or Somalia. We are insulated from the harsher realities of the brutality of human nature. Mexico has huge swaths of territory in which police are powerless and cartels rule. There is not a single place on Earth that I am aware of where a lack of police force is not filled by an often times more violent group. What is to stop that power vacuum from being filled?
- zkomp 6y ago
  Generally agree but not that they are deterred by punishment alone, no. They will do whatever they get away with. Which would imply - “the right thing” must also be objectively better to the individual, not only backed by moral+force, for it to work generally. (Not to mention the sociopaths are already present in politics and police. Drawn to power)
chipperyman573 6y ago
Day 2 may have been a lot better as store owners started to take matters into their own hands. We only saw the first day, which many people were unprepared for. A lot less people would be willing to loot if they had a friend who died after getting shot by a store owner with a shotgun. Not that this is really any better, I'm just trying to say that we can't really reach any conclusions from one day of this experiment
- awb 6y ago
  Pretty sure gangs would take over. Power abhors a vacuum.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    Yeah, but police units and private security firms are a form of "gang", just with different pay masters and accountability.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      Notably accountability to the people (in principle if imperfect in practice), which is an important distinction indeed.
  - lowdose 6y ago
    Oh the greeks! Great application of the quote. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_(physics)
  - 51Cards 6y ago
    This. It would quickly devolve into a power struggle of who could amass the most strength. You only have to sample the mob era to see what would happen, where shop owners for example were paying for protection. In the absense of any form of control there will always be people that will take advantage and sway others to their cause.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
vncecartersknee 6y ago
> Well, some people never find their needs met... enormous numbers of people in the US are living literally a paycheck or a medical emergency away from bankruptcy and homelessness
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  I was implying that some people always want more, regardless of how much they already have. But sure, I agree that those desperate people can also be dangerous.
  - geomark 6y ago
    Not sure whom to attribute this quote to, but "Most of the world's problems are caused by two types of people: those who don't have enough, and those who never have enough."
gremlinsinc 6y ago
Would this happen IF we had free guns for the populace who want them who pass background/mental evals (make owning a gun a right for all). Then we democratize gun ownership. Next we create UBI so nobody has to steal to put food on the table, and guarantee jobs for anyone who wants one, and healthcare for all. you end the poverty and almost-poverty and you stop a lot of the reasons behind WHY people loot when there's an opportunity to do so.
- metrokoi 6y ago
  What happens when a burglar is shot by a home owner and there is a dispute on whether or not it was justified? Almost every single act of self defense would be heavily disputed. You would have "vigilantes" dispensing what they see as justice by trying to apprehend the home owner, who would then again be forced to defend themselves. You would need a higher entity of authority to arbitrate these disputes, possibly with lethal force, which would essentially be just another form of police.
- psexec 6y ago
  I live in a city with a vandalism problem. People throw benches into the river, break glass panes, and perform other similar feats just for the fun of it. Oh, and the ubiquitous designer drugs ads on every damn wall. Well, it _was_ a problem until the government put cameras on every street corner and the police started tracking down and punishing every one of the vandals. How would gun ownership help with this? I look out of a window at 2 AM and see a couple of guys destroying a bus stop. Should I grab my gun and start shooting at them?
  - gremlinsinc 6y ago
    The guns are more of a equalization of power. The right loves guns, but would they if they knew every liberal had twice as many guns as they probably have? that was my point w/ guns...

Supermancho 6y ago

> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? 'Completely' is a meaningless term. Animals behave selfishly in almost every choice (even in altruism) as part of the survival instinct. There is a question of degree and there is a distribution curve that hasn't been fully explored. For some people, some desperate or casual situations lead to barbaric (lack of a better term) behavior, when possible, for some portion of the population. Even with a police force, the curve exists and we experience the effects.

throwaway894345 6y ago
The natural state of people is to form into increasingly larger bands under increasingly hierarchical leadership whose power provides them with security and liberty. When you take away those power structures, everything indeed devolves back into chaos—this is the definition of a civilization collapsing. Anarchy is incompatible with security and consequently with peace and liberty as well.

philwelch 6y ago

> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? All of them? No. Enough of them? Yes.

closeparen 6y ago

Society has a role in meeting needs. If society burns whenever there are unmet needs, it will never get its act together to meet them.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

It is the natural state of criminals. Seattle suburbs were victimized by organized groups driving in car caravans from mall to mall. This occurred while police were busy in greater Seattle.

remarkEon 6y ago

>Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? Uhhh Yes? This is the natural state of Man, and has been for 10,000 years. My goodness, we've only gotten over it in the last 1000 years (and that's being extremely charitable). We're thankfully at a point where we've been able to regulate ourselves with some rules here and there. But that natural state of Man is the raison d'être for those rules in the first place.