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Yep, and the legal market prices must not be pushed too high due to excessive regulation and taxation, lest the black markets (and crime associated with them) c

by kyleee 6y ago

Yep, and the legal market prices must not be pushed too high due to excessive regulation and taxation, lest the black markets (and crime associated with them) continue to flourish

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> lest the black markets (and crime associated with them) continue to flourish Black markets of tax evaders are vastly superior to those avoiding criminal penalties up to life in jail.
- kyleee 6y ago
  Agreed but tax evasion is not the only crime associated with black markets (especially the drug trade)
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Most of the other crimes are associated with prohibition. When the penalty for drug distribution is a decade in prison which the government then uses as leverage to flip your distributors and then do the same to everyone in your whole organization, it makes it economically viable to use extreme measures to avoid prosecution. Snitches get stitches etc. Whereas when the consequences of tax evasion are paying what you owe plus penalties and interest, you just pay the money (or go bankrupt). There is no incentive to spend five million dollars to avoid a million dollar penalty as a gesture of loyalty to your people or to keep them from flipping; you just pay the million dollars. There is much less incentive to murder witnesses and risk prison when the alternative was only bankruptcy and not prison to begin with. The violence is primarily attributable to the harshness of the penalties in the War on Drugs and what that justifies in order to avoid them. Meanwhile prosecuting tax evasion is self-financing whenever tax evasion is prevalent, so it has a natural equilibrium at a low level of tax evasion. Prohibition is the opposite -- the harder you prosecute the higher the street prices get and the more lucrative it is to commit violence to bring in those high prices.
    - freedomben 6y ago
      Agreed. I highly recommend Narconomics: How to Run a Drug Cartel[1] for a great look at the economics behind the drug trade. It's remarkable logical when you just consider the facts. [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/Narconomics-How-Run-Drug-Cartel/dp/1610397703 https://smile.amazon.com/Narconomics-How-Run-Drug-Cartel/dp/...
- klyrs 6y ago
  From a harm reduction standpoint, this is wrong. I want heroin users to get pure, uncut heroin -- just as I never worry that a bottle of whiskey is going to be cut with fentanyl. Legalize it and regulate it, and price out the black market or it will have all the incentive to undermine the possible good.
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    I used to be for complete legalization for the reasons discussed here, but now i struggle with that because of how much destruction there is to people from meth and opioids. If those were legally available in smaller "safe" doses maybe it would be better. But this is just tough to contemplate.
    - ken 6y ago
      How do meth/opioids change the equation? They're not (for the most part) legal. Alcohol causes tremendous destruction, too, but I thought there was general agreement that national prohibition was worse.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        They change the equation when someone is advocating for “full legalization” with (sometimes) “no government regulation”. The argument is (rightly or wrongly) that certain drugs are actually so harmful that they should be kept out of the public.
        NotSammyHagar 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I was thinking. They are so destructive and addictive that people can't stop taking them. I worry that if they were legal and cheap people would get hooked on them and cause a lot of devastation ton themselves and their families. Of course there are people today who can't get methadone to treat their heroin addictions, because of legality concerns where it's not available.
    - 6y ago
AuryGlenz 6y ago
I’m curious - which drugs do you think should be available for sale commercially? All of them? The libertarian side in me says yes, but the pragmatic side says easily available meth wouldn’t exactly be a great thing for society.
- freedomben 6y ago
  If Meth were legalized, somebody would figure out a way to make a safer Meth. Very few people would choose to use dangerous product that is often cut and has unknown levels of the drug in it, when there is a packaged/tested version available. A lot of the really terrible drugs only exist today because of prohibition. Some of them were invented as a way around the laws, and some were invented as an economical way to produce/traffic in the face of extreme danger (from law enforcement). Most people would opt for safer drugs if they had options. As it stands now you are basically at the mercy of the local illegal drug dealer that you know, and most of them don't have high quality standards.
  - AuryGlenz 6y ago
    You can already get a prescription for meth, but it's still neurotoxic. Better than something you can get on the street? Sure, but it's still straight up bad for you. The safer version of meth are the other amphetamines like Adderall.
    - freedomben 6y ago
      Agreed, but you can't legally get some without convincing another human to give it to you, and that human is on high alert for watching for someone who might abuse it - which is exactly the person who would benefit most from legality/availability of safer alternatives, but to that person it is illegal. That's why they turn to the black market.
aidos 6y ago
Your parent said decriminalise rather than legalise. It’s a strategy that Portugal has had a lot of success with.
noarchy 6y ago
This remains an issue in Canada with regard to cannabis, now that it is legalized. And we still have a thriving black market in cigarettes, due to high taxes.

by kyleee 6y ago

Yep, and the legal market prices must not be pushed too high due to excessive regulation and taxation, lest the black markets (and crime associated with them) continue to flourish

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> lest the black markets (and crime associated with them) continue to flourish Black markets of tax evaders are vastly superior to those avoiding criminal penalties up to life in jail.

kyleee 6y ago
Agreed but tax evasion is not the only crime associated with black markets (especially the drug trade)
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  Most of the other crimes are associated with prohibition. When the penalty for drug distribution is a decade in prison which the government then uses as leverage to flip your distributors and then do the same to everyone in your whole organization, it makes it economically viable to use extreme measures to avoid prosecution. Snitches get stitches etc. Whereas when the consequences of tax evasion are paying what you owe plus penalties and interest, you just pay the money (or go bankrupt). There is no incentive to spend five million dollars to avoid a million dollar penalty as a gesture of loyalty to your people or to keep them from flipping; you just pay the million dollars. There is much less incentive to murder witnesses and risk prison when the alternative was only bankruptcy and not prison to begin with. The violence is primarily attributable to the harshness of the penalties in the War on Drugs and what that justifies in order to avoid them. Meanwhile prosecuting tax evasion is self-financing whenever tax evasion is prevalent, so it has a natural equilibrium at a low level of tax evasion. Prohibition is the opposite -- the harder you prosecute the higher the street prices get and the more lucrative it is to commit violence to bring in those high prices.
  - freedomben 6y ago
    Agreed. I highly recommend Narconomics: How to Run a Drug Cartel[1] for a great look at the economics behind the drug trade. It's remarkable logical when you just consider the facts. [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/Narconomics-How-Run-Drug-Cartel/dp/1610397703 https://smile.amazon.com/Narconomics-How-Run-Drug-Cartel/dp/...
klyrs 6y ago
From a harm reduction standpoint, this is wrong. I want heroin users to get pure, uncut heroin -- just as I never worry that a bottle of whiskey is going to be cut with fentanyl. Legalize it and regulate it, and price out the black market or it will have all the incentive to undermine the possible good.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  I used to be for complete legalization for the reasons discussed here, but now i struggle with that because of how much destruction there is to people from meth and opioids. If those were legally available in smaller "safe" doses maybe it would be better. But this is just tough to contemplate.
  - ken 6y ago
    How do meth/opioids change the equation? They're not (for the most part) legal. Alcohol causes tremendous destruction, too, but I thought there was general agreement that national prohibition was worse.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      They change the equation when someone is advocating for “full legalization” with (sometimes) “no government regulation”. The argument is (rightly or wrongly) that certain drugs are actually so harmful that they should be kept out of the public.
      - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I was thinking. They are so destructive and addictive that people can't stop taking them. I worry that if they were legal and cheap people would get hooked on them and cause a lot of devastation ton themselves and their families. Of course there are people today who can't get methadone to treat their heroin addictions, because of legality concerns where it's not available.
  - 6y ago

AuryGlenz 6y ago

I’m curious - which drugs do you think should be available for sale commercially? All of them? The libertarian side in me says yes, but the pragmatic side says easily available meth wouldn’t exactly be a great thing for society.

freedomben 6y ago
If Meth were legalized, somebody would figure out a way to make a safer Meth. Very few people would choose to use dangerous product that is often cut and has unknown levels of the drug in it, when there is a packaged/tested version available. A lot of the really terrible drugs only exist today because of prohibition. Some of them were invented as a way around the laws, and some were invented as an economical way to produce/traffic in the face of extreme danger (from law enforcement). Most people would opt for safer drugs if they had options. As it stands now you are basically at the mercy of the local illegal drug dealer that you know, and most of them don't have high quality standards.
- AuryGlenz 6y ago
  You can already get a prescription for meth, but it's still neurotoxic. Better than something you can get on the street? Sure, but it's still straight up bad for you. The safer version of meth are the other amphetamines like Adderall.
  - freedomben 6y ago
    Agreed, but you can't legally get some without convincing another human to give it to you, and that human is on high alert for watching for someone who might abuse it - which is exactly the person who would benefit most from legality/availability of safer alternatives, but to that person it is illegal. That's why they turn to the black market.

aidos 6y ago

Your parent said decriminalise rather than legalise. It’s a strategy that Portugal has had a lot of success with.

noarchy 6y ago

This remains an issue in Canada with regard to cannabis, now that it is legalized. And we still have a thriving black market in cigarettes, due to high taxes.