5 ms·

what's your point, exactly? men are way more likely to apply for jobs when they don't meet the requirements than women are, generally. if you're legitimately u

what's your point, exactly? men are way more likely to apply for jobs when they don't meet the requirements than women are, generally. if you're legitimately using years of experience as a /hard/ cutoff, you're selecting for a very interesting signal that i would argue does not really optimize for candidate quality. of course, your tech stack may warrant that requirement - i don't care - but this idea that "there are no qualified women/underrepresented groups" conveniently feeds onto itself - underrepresented groups see themselves as less likely to get the job, so don't apply, so don't build up resumes, probably leading to them exiting tech, etc. at the end of the day, any true improvements to the system are going to make white men uncomfortable. yes, looking for candidates in particular fora associated with women/minorities/etc is positively boosting their chances vis-a-vis white men who aren't on those lists. that's the way it is going to have to be.

collyw 6y ago
We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?
- acconrad 6y ago
  Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your teams.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    While I disagree with @collyw, what you're proposing is based on purely touchy-feely claims. BTW I don't 'empathize' with products, I use them. They're tools, no more.
    - mcarda_indigoag 6y ago
      There is a great deal of evidence around algorithms exhibiting bias, which can harm consumers. Here's one example of facial recognition algorithms: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8280.pdf https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8280.pdf Users may not consciously "empathize" with products, but they will be discouraged from using them when their experience using them is sub-optimal.
  - heromal 6y ago
    >You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. When I use HN I don't wonder if the person that added the "reply" button is black or not... I don't really understand this. (I am black)
    - WalterSear 6y ago
      IMHO, it's corporate milquetoast: people can't actually tell their bosses 'because we want to be decent people' so these mantras became a way to tie inclusionism to the bottom line, thereby making it fiscally acceptable. AFAIK, there is precious little actual research pointing either way. No doubt it's an extremely nebulous subject to study. Groupthink is certainly a thing, but I haven't seen strong evidence linking diversity hiring to the particular outcomes it is claims to treat.
  - collyw 6y ago
    The meetup groups I have been to have been just as much of a sausage party as any companies I worked for. Why do you need different skin colour or a vagina to have an alternative perspective? Do I think the same as all other white guys? Or do my blue eyes give me some unique insight that brown eyes (which are uncommon in this country) don't?
    - mcarda_indigoag 6y ago
      Full disclosure, I haven't had time to vet the individual studies cited, but this article could be a good starting point to investigate this idea. Be sure to at least look at the second half, where they move from correlation to causation: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-mak... Here's the paragraph I want to highlight: "Members of a homogeneous group rest somewhat assured that they will agree with one another; that they will understand one another's perspectives and beliefs; that they will be able to easily come to a consensus. But when members of a group notice that they are socially different from one another, they change their expectations. They anticipate differences of opinion and perspective. They assume they will need to work harder to come to a consensus. This logic helps to explain both the upside and the downside of social diversity: people work harder in diverse environments both cognitively and socially. They might not like it, but the hard work can lead to better outcomes."

collyw 6y ago

We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?

acconrad 6y ago
Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your teams.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  While I disagree with @collyw, what you're proposing is based on purely touchy-feely claims. BTW I don't 'empathize' with products, I use them. They're tools, no more.
  - mcarda_indigoag 6y ago
    There is a great deal of evidence around algorithms exhibiting bias, which can harm consumers. Here's one example of facial recognition algorithms: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8280.pdf https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8280.pdf Users may not consciously "empathize" with products, but they will be discouraged from using them when their experience using them is sub-optimal.
- heromal 6y ago
  >You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. When I use HN I don't wonder if the person that added the "reply" button is black or not... I don't really understand this. (I am black)
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    IMHO, it's corporate milquetoast: people can't actually tell their bosses 'because we want to be decent people' so these mantras became a way to tie inclusionism to the bottom line, thereby making it fiscally acceptable. AFAIK, there is precious little actual research pointing either way. No doubt it's an extremely nebulous subject to study. Groupthink is certainly a thing, but I haven't seen strong evidence linking diversity hiring to the particular outcomes it is claims to treat.
- collyw 6y ago
  The meetup groups I have been to have been just as much of a sausage party as any companies I worked for. Why do you need different skin colour or a vagina to have an alternative perspective? Do I think the same as all other white guys? Or do my blue eyes give me some unique insight that brown eyes (which are uncommon in this country) don't?
  - mcarda_indigoag 6y ago
    Full disclosure, I haven't had time to vet the individual studies cited, but this article could be a good starting point to investigate this idea. Be sure to at least look at the second half, where they move from correlation to causation: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-mak... Here's the paragraph I want to highlight: "Members of a homogeneous group rest somewhat assured that they will agree with one another; that they will understand one another's perspectives and beliefs; that they will be able to easily come to a consensus. But when members of a group notice that they are socially different from one another, they change their expectations. They anticipate differences of opinion and perspective. They assume they will need to work harder to come to a consensus. This logic helps to explain both the upside and the downside of social diversity: people work harder in diverse environments both cognitively and socially. They might not like it, but the hard work can lead to better outcomes."