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> 3. Most "good" programmers move to the high-income countries > Again, fairly hard to find data on this I'm surprised it's hard to find data, but yes, this c

> 3. Most "good" programmers move to the high-income countries > Again, fairly hard to find data on this I'm surprised it's hard to find data, but yes, this consistently matches my observation over the past 30 years and four different geographic locations: very few American programmers are American at all. When I did my master's in CS 15 years ago, I was almost always the only person in the room born in the United States, and besides the (either Indian or Chinese-born) professor, the only US citizen as well.

learc83 6y ago
> When I did my master's in CS 15 years ago At most schools the CS master's program is overwhelmingly international students. That's not the case for undergrad.
chii 6y ago
The american public education system is abysmal. But the ones in russia, china or india is pretty good, if you're smart. And the smart ones then immigrate to the highest paid country they can.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  That's definitely what I see - I would think it would be easy to find hard data to back that up (although poking around, I haven't been able to find it myself).
TheCoelacanth 6y ago
> master's A master's degree from an American university is a huge benefit when trying to get a visa. That means there are plenty of international students who want to get master's degrees from American universities because it helps them get into the country. Americans don't need visas, so most of them don't bother getting a master's degree, because there is not as much benefit relative to the opportunity cost.
snovv_crash 6y ago
This fits. It is called "brain drain", where the smart people leave low-income areas to go somewhere they will be paid more. And why shouldn't they, if a company will pay them so they have more in savings in the rich area than they would have even earned in the poorer area?
- ric2b 6y ago
  However this should push down the salaries in the higher income areas and push up the salaries in the lower income areas due to lack of workers. That doesn't seem to happen much.
  - snovv_crash 6y ago
    If it was average Joe's moving, sure. It's the cream of the crop though, the opportunity makers. It grows the economy where they go and shrinks it where they leave.
opportune 6y ago
Yeah, this. Most people I’ve worked with aren’t American (although Canadians+Americans together are a plurality or maybe even a majority). It makes sense that if you want to make money and are OK with living in the US, you would move here to take advantage of the significant pay arbitrage. Although CS masters in the US are glorified paid immigration programs so it’s not a perfect comparison. But this also holds up in industry.
T-hawk 6y ago
One angle on that: American programmers may not do master's degrees as much, for less need. You can usually get hired in industry without a master's, if you can speak well and demonstrate your experience and portfolio enough. I'm American, with only a bachelor's in CS, but I've never felt like a master's is needed for anything in industry, only academia. A foreign-born programmer without the experience and portfolio would likely feel more need for a master's degree to demonstrate qualifications.

learc83 6y ago

> When I did my master's in CS 15 years ago At most schools the CS master's program is overwhelmingly international students. That's not the case for undergrad.

chii 6y ago

The american public education system is abysmal. But the ones in russia, china or india is pretty good, if you're smart. And the smart ones then immigrate to the highest paid country they can.

commandlinefan 6y ago
That's definitely what I see - I would think it would be easy to find hard data to back that up (although poking around, I haven't been able to find it myself).

TheCoelacanth 6y ago

> master's A master's degree from an American university is a huge benefit when trying to get a visa. That means there are plenty of international students who want to get master's degrees from American universities because it helps them get into the country. Americans don't need visas, so most of them don't bother getting a master's degree, because there is not as much benefit relative to the opportunity cost.

snovv_crash 6y ago

This fits. It is called "brain drain", where the smart people leave low-income areas to go somewhere they will be paid more. And why shouldn't they, if a company will pay them so they have more in savings in the rich area than they would have even earned in the poorer area?

ric2b 6y ago
However this should push down the salaries in the higher income areas and push up the salaries in the lower income areas due to lack of workers. That doesn't seem to happen much.
- snovv_crash 6y ago
  If it was average Joe's moving, sure. It's the cream of the crop though, the opportunity makers. It grows the economy where they go and shrinks it where they leave.

opportune 6y ago

Yeah, this. Most people I’ve worked with aren’t American (although Canadians+Americans together are a plurality or maybe even a majority). It makes sense that if you want to make money and are OK with living in the US, you would move here to take advantage of the significant pay arbitrage. Although CS masters in the US are glorified paid immigration programs so it’s not a perfect comparison. But this also holds up in industry.

T-hawk 6y ago

One angle on that: American programmers may not do master's degrees as much, for less need. You can usually get hired in industry without a master's, if you can speak well and demonstrate your experience and portfolio enough. I'm American, with only a bachelor's in CS, but I've never felt like a master's is needed for anything in industry, only academia. A foreign-born programmer without the experience and portfolio would likely feel more need for a master's degree to demonstrate qualifications.