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I have my doubts that being a weirdo is actually that much easier today, and I see that others have made the same point. However, the kinds of things that quali

by jaspax 6y ago

I have my doubts that being a weirdo is actually that much easier today, and I see that others have made the same point. However, the kinds of things that qualify as weird have definitely shifted. Wanna be gay? Sure, no problem (in most cities in most parts of the western world). Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling, sell things out of the back of your truck, or avoid working a full-time job? Expect to get a lot of hassle both from society and from the state.

TulliusCicero 6y ago
This is circular reasoning. "We're not any nicer to weirdos. How do I know? Well, because the subset of people we're still not nice to, we're not nice to!" Bare minimum, there's always going to be some demographic ostracized by society, even if that demographic is only, like, murderous cannibals. Only looking at whichever demographics are currently treated poorly to evaluate how society treats the people who it treats poorly means you've fixed the "niceness to weirdos" quotient in place by definition.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  A society which truly integrated their murderous cannibals would reserve bbq spots in the park for them. But no, they just have to put up with the cold shoulder.
  - igravious 6y ago
    Would you rather we get cold feet or that they have to put up with the cold shoulder?
    - throwanem 6y ago
      Well, that's the point. Give them a grill and the shoulder won't be cold any more.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  I would qualify murderous cannibals as dangerous criminals, not weirdos. Weirdos are people who aren't doing anything wrong, but who are ostracized for not conforming to arbitrary social norms.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    I’d imagine most cannibals who ever lived were not breaking the law at all. This may hold true even today. It reminds me of a joke, “why do people refer to me as a cannibal? I think it’s my woodwork that defines me. Why not call me a woodworker?”
    - leto_ii 6y ago
      I don't know enough anthropology to debate that, but my feeling is that even in societies where cannibalism was allowed there were clear rules around it. I expect that you wouldn't just be able to kill and eat people randomly.
      - monadic2 6y ago
        Yes, this is absolutely true, I was just lightly teasing the use of “criminal” as a moral thing.
    - wuliwong 6y ago
      The murderous part implies they are criminals. :)
      - monadic2 6y ago
        For societies that viewed this as a crime, anyway. For instance, many don’t consider military engagements to be murder but others do, and regardless whether or not you might consider it a crime depends deeply on your geopolitical beliefs. Anyway, there are even cultures (now extinct I think) that eat their own dead as a form of mourning. Ritualistic cannibalism is a whole thing that is not criminal and it’s been found on every continent where humans naturally live. Many societies don’t even have states to define or enforce crimes. So yea, I think most cannibals were probably not criminals.
- jaspax 6y ago
  ... yes? Of course I look at the subset of people who are today counted as weirdos. How else would one evaluate the social treatment of weirdos? If you're going to argue a change, I think that you need to show that either (1) the total number of people considered "weirdos" has changed, or (2) weirdos are no longer treated as poorly. I find (2) very implausible (and notice that in the linked article, the people in question are responding to very mild forms of social disapproval), and I don't think that (1) really holds up, but I'm willing to hear an argument.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    I find 2) to be a very real possibility - first off in the To Kill A Mockingbird not sure how mild his social ostracism, furthermore what would his punishment for being a weirdo have been if he hadn't hit on the convenient cover of being a drunk (and as I recall wasn't he descended from a rich family?) As far as 1) the example of Doc's two weird bits seem pretty benign. This is the argument that would well it seems pretty benign to us but perhaps there are things that are weird to us but that back then would have seemed benign. As a general thing anything I can think of that would be considered weird enough nowadays to get you kicked out of a Diner would have been considered weird enough decades back to get you kicked out, if not the police called on you. If your theory is that there were things considered benign in the past that would get you thrown out of a Diner today you should show what those are, the nearest I can think of is having the trophy head of an African Elephant with you, but I bet you wouldn't get thrown out of almost anywhere for that unless it was just too big to have in the place. Maybe try Bengal Tiger, wouldn't be bad. Dressed up as a member of the KKK would hopefully get you kicked out of a lot of places today, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't have got you kicked out in 1935. At any rate I'm not sure if it would have been considered benign actually, despite membership's popularity during that time.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > ... yes? Of course I look at the subset of people who are today counted as weirdos. How else would one evaluate the social treatment of weirdos? Using the same reasoning, one could say, "treatment of X group of weirdos hasn't gotten any better because society treats weirdos better; it's just that X has become somewhat more socially acceptable". For example, you could apply this reasoning to, say, furries. Probably more accepted now than 20 or 30 years ago, but still considered weird. If that's the model, then it's impossible for society to become more accepting of weirdos in general, because each time they become more accepting of some particular group, you just attribute the change to "social acceptability" of that group, rather than niceness to weirdos more generally. With the end game being, "sure, everyone is nice to everyone now, but it's not because we became nicer to weirdos, but because now everything is socially acceptable and nothing is considered weird." It's a useless way of measuring things because it makes progress literally impossible by definition.
- kls 6y ago
  Well being a cannibal is a self limiting demographic, I mean you peer group is bound to shrink. It has to be a pretty lonely.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    Would it be a social taboo to eat a fellow cannibal since by definition it would reduce to size of the ingroup?
  - firethief 6y ago
    Historically most groups that have practiced cannibalism over long periods didn't use it as their exclusive source of sustenance...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
I agree. Being different isn't any easier or harder. We've just moved some things from the "socially accepted weird" list to the "socially unacceptable weird" list and vice versa. (yes I know my comment is a massive generalization)
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  What do you think it means to become nicer to weirdos, other than whatever counted as weird becoming more socially acceptable?
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Not having laws against being weird, not reaching to therapy for weirdness, not considering weirdness pathological, not assigning moral values to being weird or not weird. Moving "who is weird" around doesn't do anything. If you keep me locked up in your basement and torture me and, by some luck, I overpower you and in turn lock you up and torture you, there isn't really any less locking-up-and-torturing, it's just that somebody else is receiving it.
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      > Not having laws against being weird Well, being gay is legally much more accepted now. Does that count as progress? Or does it not count, because most people don't consider being gay "weird" anymore, as it's become more acceptable? That's what I'm saying: whether you still call being gay "weird" and we've become more accepting, or it's just more accepted because it's no longer considered weird, that's still the same progress.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        It does for gay people, absolutely. Much like it would be progress for me to be released from your cellar. But if we just replace me with you or somebody else, there's still somebody going to be locked in the cellar. At the margins (the actual margins, not the "I'm marginalized mimimi") of society where the weird people are. And I don't think those margins are getting smaller, or the people inhabiting them are treated better. It's just different people that are the outsiders now, and being gay doesn't necessarily put you there (depends on your location, though).
piker 6y ago
> Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling Acceptance of perceived weirdness at the intersection of the custody of minors seems like something which should move on a generational timescale
awinder 6y ago
> avoid working a full-time job The Ryan's World toy review kid has earned $120M playing with toys by age 9, this is like the golden era of full-time job avoidance
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  I wonder how that kid will turn out, child actor style
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Are outliers really that convincing? A large volume of people trying to make it on social media earn pennies.
- karatestomp 6y ago
  Same as actors and performers in any other era since the invention of recording and mass distribution, providing the possibility (inevitability) for incredible amounts of money to concentrate (almost exclusively) to the very most successful at a given type of performance. You don't have to go through Hollywood (or whatever) anymore but it's still some happy intersection of luck + skill + hard-work (+ connections maybe) making it happen, with no two being sufficient nor all three being any guarantee, like there's always been, and there's still only a tiny (relative to global population) set of people who can be on top at any given time, no matter how high average quality rises. In the case of Ryan's World, he appears to have benefited from a mother willing to quit her job to be his producer very early in his channel's history, and also able to competently perform that job, well before it was clear it'd make serious money. So even for a 9-year-old there's the luck/connections thing playing a huge role in this being a viable possibility, let alone any kind of likely-to-succeed play.
capa3527 6y ago
The type of socially accepted people has changed, because capitalism now profits more from a different type of people compared to 100 years ago. Social progress is an illusion.
rpiguy 6y ago
There are a few BIG differences. * Today you can be smart and popular. There will always be smart kids that get picked on, but there used to be pure, outright hostility toward the smart kids as recently as thirty years ago. This is especially true for women. My grandmother never told us she was valedictorian until we found her diploma cleaning out her house, women just couldn't talk about their intelligence. Even when I went to high school I remember a girl who would lie about her test scores (she would say she did worse than she did so she could fit in with the other girls). * Today you can be openly gay. You will take shit for it, but at least you are out. People used to give you shit for it and you had to keep yourself in the closet or else. Situation is still shitty, but improved from a low bar. * Weirdness can be cool now. Showing an interest in anything other than the mainstream interests used to result in terrible teasing.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  > Weirdness can be cool now. Showing an interest in anything other than the mainstream interests used to result in terrible teasing. Weirdness almost by definition can't be cool. Or at least not actual weirdness. In the 50's a leather jacket and a motorbike made you 'weird' to the old folks, but incredibly cool to teenagers. Same goes nowadays, only the details differ.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Ok that's classic "No True Scotsman" right there.
    - leto_ii 6y ago
      How so?
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        # Weirdness almost by definition can't be cool. Or at least not actual weirdness. "Actual weirdness" being refined to mean the set the author chose, instead of an independent rule. Circular reasoning, designed to compel the (weak) conclusion you'd been arguing toward.
TomNomNom 6y ago
As someone who was a bit of a weird kid, I definitely think it's easier to be a weirdo today. The main reason being: I can find my fellow weirdos. When I was at school and my peers made fun of me for my even slightly esoteric interests I felt alone. I didn't know anyone else who liked the same things that I did; or at least not to the same, occasionally obsessive, degree. It was hard. Now that the internet exists and is popular: I can find my people. There's probably a forum or subreddit for pretty much any niche I could care to infatuate myself with, and there's creators on YouTube making fantastically long and detailed videos on the minutiae of every subject under the sun. I don't feel alone any more :)
- stormdennis 6y ago
  If you don't fit in in school, you still have to go. Adults get to decide for themselves and can find their niche even before the internet.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Yes, it's much easier to be weird but not feel bad about it when there is a community of like minded people. Weird is just different from the norm. I've always known that the norm is mediocre anyway
  - markrages 6y ago
    Are you still weird if you find a community where you are normal?
    - wtetzner 6y ago
      To the world at large, I guess so. Within the community, I guess not. Weirdness depends on context.
    - onemoresoop 6y ago
      No you're not. But you all know you're weird to the outside world and not care much about it, because you belong - a necessary human need is fulfilled
foldr 6y ago
>Wanna be gay? Sure, no problem (in most cities in most parts of the western world) It's better than it was, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "no problem".
- dpbriggs 6y ago
  Really depends on where you are, and who you interact with. Anecdata: I haven't had any real issues. I have had some worries about undue benefits, and some people become more "careful" once they find out. It really isn't an issue where I live, from my experience.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >Really depends on where you are, and who you interact with. And that is emphatically not true for straight people: they are accepted everywhere. If you have to be careful about where you go and who you interact with because of your sexuality, then -- even if you take those restrictions on your life for granted by now -- it's still a demonstration of the continued power of homophobia. I get what you're saying, but I think that attitudes to homophobia are sort of where attitudes to race were in the 90s. People are tempted to mark eliminating homophobia as 'done'. But if you look beyond more privileged folks, there's actually still a ton of homophobia out there, with real consequences. For example, it's been estimated that around 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT.
    - dpbriggs 6y ago
      > I assume you mean 'undue' benefits, and not some kind of special undo feature only available to us gays :) Whoops, fixed :P - Thank you! > And that is emphatically not true for straight people That is a good point. I haven't thought of it as homophobia, but perhaps it is. I definitely recognize that I've been fortunate. Young, in a progressive area, with a good job. Hard to beat. > 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT I wasn't aware of that, and that is awful.
    - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
      > 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT Source
globular-toast 6y ago
Yeah. Being weird isn't any easier, it's just that what is considered weird has changed. Being into computers used to be considered weird when I was a child (I was a "computer geek"). Now it's accepted and even considered cool. It's not that it's easier for me to be weird now, it's that those aspects aren't considered weird. Things about me that are considered weird get buried on platforms like this. I've had many accounts here banned for it. I don't use foul language or attack people directly. It's just considered weird so it gets banned. I don't think it's easier to be weird. If anything it's much easier to have your life ruined by being considered weird. Take Richard Stallman, for example.
moralestapia 6y ago
>the kinds of things that qualify as weird have definitely shifted Weird to think about what is considered 'weird' now, actually. For instance, more people have distanced from me after I politely tell them that "I don't do drugs" than any other thing I can think of. I honesty don't get it, but yeah, the standards by which people are judged have varied greatly with time.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Things change. Yes, it is weird, but I see your case as somewhat different. People distance from you because they don't want to be judged as weird themselves for doing drugs. They fear that they be misunderstood. Some may also be afraid you may disclose it to others outside the group. Some may indeed judge you for maybe being close minded or not open to new experiences. Do you get the "Have you ever tried {insert recreational drug here}?? You're missing out, etc."
  - moralestapia 6y ago
    >Have you ever tried {insert recreational drug here}?? You're missing out, etc. Yeah I get that a lot. I get what you're saying and, incidentally, you made a pretty good point, "People distance from you because they don't want to be judged as weird themselves ..." Isn't this, more or less, always the case? The way I see it is some sort of 'tribal' instinct, us vs. them, kind of thing. The norms that define inclusion/exclusion from the group could change everyday. I find it frustrating and honestly quite sad how many people cannot get past this issue, and how many good relationships and opportunities never take off because of this barrier.
    - onemoresoop 6y ago
      Yes, I find it rather sad too, but not as an immutable thing. I think that we have the capacity to move towards a better direction. I am thinking that education has a lot of potential. We could experiment with and introduce some form of early psychology of self discovery to children in schools, something basic to help them learn to reflect. That would guide more people towards self fulfillment and a lot of these problems would simply disappear.
stormdennis 6y ago
Lots of normal people pretending to be on the spectrum of Aspergers/autism may make that sound accepted but the people who really have it face the same hurdles they always have, except maybe in a less honest way, sometimes, which is probably worse. The same goes for mental illness, mental disability and physical disability. SSDD
doorstar 6y ago
> Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling, sell things out of the back of your truck, or avoid working a full-time job? For better or for worse I'd say these have always qualified as 'weird'. Homeschooling is probably less weird now that it would have been when I was a kid. Selling things out of the back of the truck and/or (men) not working a full time job falls pretty short of society's expectations of adult behavior.
wpietri 6y ago
Personally, as a confirmed weirdo, I think it's way easier, at least in America. A few obvious factors: 1. Urbanization. Small towns are suffocating. In cities, people are much less in each other's business. Urbanization has been on an upward march since the country's founding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Urban_and_rural_populations_in_the_United_States_(US_Census_Bureau_(1790_to_2010) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...),_OWID.svg 2. Education. The more people know, the more than can accept. Education has been steadily on the rise for decades: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf 3. Travel. The more you've seen that other places are different, the easier it is to accept difference at home. As recently as 1989, 3% of Americans had passports. Now it's 42%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/#76940c463c16 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh... 4. The decline of patriarchy. For most of American history, women were pretty close to property of men. The main acceptable role was wife, with things like schoolteacher possibly being ok. Even in the 1970s, less than 10% of medicine and law degrees went to women. Only this century did it reach parity: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/more-women-are-doctors-and-lawyers-than-ever-but-progress-is-stalling/266115/ https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/more-women... 5. The decline of racism. America's still hella racist, of course. But talk to racial minorities about exactly where they'd be ok setting the dial on the time machine. 6. The decline in policing of sex and gender. This is very recent, and still ongoing. People are getting to be who they are in ways that were pretty much universally condemned even a few decades ago. 7. The Internet. There are at least three big effects here. One is that people now have as much culture as they care to absorb. Global news? Indie films? Personal essays? We're awash in it. Another is the lack of gatekeepers. On Twitter, I am hearing voices that I didn't even know existed 25 years ago. And third, as others said, it is letting weirdos find their people. If somebody gives me a time machine, I'm only setting that dial forward.
m463 6y ago
> avoid working a full-time job I've always been told the difference between eccentric and crazy is income level.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by jaspax 6y ago

TulliusCicero 6y ago

This is circular reasoning. "We're not any nicer to weirdos. How do I know? Well, because the subset of people we're still not nice to, we're not nice to!" Bare minimum, there's always going to be some demographic ostracized by society, even if that demographic is only, like, murderous cannibals. Only looking at whichever demographics are currently treated poorly to evaluate how society treats the people who it treats poorly means you've fixed the "niceness to weirdos" quotient in place by definition.

082349872349872 6y ago
A society which truly integrated their murderous cannibals would reserve bbq spots in the park for them. But no, they just have to put up with the cold shoulder.
- igravious 6y ago
  Would you rather we get cold feet or that they have to put up with the cold shoulder?
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Well, that's the point. Give them a grill and the shoulder won't be cold any more.
leto_ii 6y ago
I would qualify murderous cannibals as dangerous criminals, not weirdos. Weirdos are people who aren't doing anything wrong, but who are ostracized for not conforming to arbitrary social norms.
- monadic2 6y ago
  I’d imagine most cannibals who ever lived were not breaking the law at all. This may hold true even today. It reminds me of a joke, “why do people refer to me as a cannibal? I think it’s my woodwork that defines me. Why not call me a woodworker?”
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    I don't know enough anthropology to debate that, but my feeling is that even in societies where cannibalism was allowed there were clear rules around it. I expect that you wouldn't just be able to kill and eat people randomly.
    - monadic2 6y ago
      Yes, this is absolutely true, I was just lightly teasing the use of “criminal” as a moral thing.
  - wuliwong 6y ago
    The murderous part implies they are criminals. :)
    - monadic2 6y ago
      For societies that viewed this as a crime, anyway. For instance, many don’t consider military engagements to be murder but others do, and regardless whether or not you might consider it a crime depends deeply on your geopolitical beliefs. Anyway, there are even cultures (now extinct I think) that eat their own dead as a form of mourning. Ritualistic cannibalism is a whole thing that is not criminal and it’s been found on every continent where humans naturally live. Many societies don’t even have states to define or enforce crimes. So yea, I think most cannibals were probably not criminals.
jaspax 6y ago
... yes? Of course I look at the subset of people who are today counted as weirdos. How else would one evaluate the social treatment of weirdos? If you're going to argue a change, I think that you need to show that either (1) the total number of people considered "weirdos" has changed, or (2) weirdos are no longer treated as poorly. I find (2) very implausible (and notice that in the linked article, the people in question are responding to very mild forms of social disapproval), and I don't think that (1) really holds up, but I'm willing to hear an argument.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  I find 2) to be a very real possibility - first off in the To Kill A Mockingbird not sure how mild his social ostracism, furthermore what would his punishment for being a weirdo have been if he hadn't hit on the convenient cover of being a drunk (and as I recall wasn't he descended from a rich family?) As far as 1) the example of Doc's two weird bits seem pretty benign. This is the argument that would well it seems pretty benign to us but perhaps there are things that are weird to us but that back then would have seemed benign. As a general thing anything I can think of that would be considered weird enough nowadays to get you kicked out of a Diner would have been considered weird enough decades back to get you kicked out, if not the police called on you. If your theory is that there were things considered benign in the past that would get you thrown out of a Diner today you should show what those are, the nearest I can think of is having the trophy head of an African Elephant with you, but I bet you wouldn't get thrown out of almost anywhere for that unless it was just too big to have in the place. Maybe try Bengal Tiger, wouldn't be bad. Dressed up as a member of the KKK would hopefully get you kicked out of a lot of places today, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't have got you kicked out in 1935. At any rate I'm not sure if it would have been considered benign actually, despite membership's popularity during that time.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  > ... yes? Of course I look at the subset of people who are today counted as weirdos. How else would one evaluate the social treatment of weirdos? Using the same reasoning, one could say, "treatment of X group of weirdos hasn't gotten any better because society treats weirdos better; it's just that X has become somewhat more socially acceptable". For example, you could apply this reasoning to, say, furries. Probably more accepted now than 20 or 30 years ago, but still considered weird. If that's the model, then it's impossible for society to become more accepting of weirdos in general, because each time they become more accepting of some particular group, you just attribute the change to "social acceptability" of that group, rather than niceness to weirdos more generally. With the end game being, "sure, everyone is nice to everyone now, but it's not because we became nicer to weirdos, but because now everything is socially acceptable and nothing is considered weird." It's a useless way of measuring things because it makes progress literally impossible by definition.
kls 6y ago
Well being a cannibal is a self limiting demographic, I mean you peer group is bound to shrink. It has to be a pretty lonely.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Would it be a social taboo to eat a fellow cannibal since by definition it would reduce to size of the ingroup?
- firethief 6y ago
  Historically most groups that have practiced cannibalism over long periods didn't use it as their exclusive source of sustenance...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

I agree. Being different isn't any easier or harder. We've just moved some things from the "socially accepted weird" list to the "socially unacceptable weird" list and vice versa. (yes I know my comment is a massive generalization)

TulliusCicero 6y ago
What do you think it means to become nicer to weirdos, other than whatever counted as weird becoming more socially acceptable?
- luckylion 6y ago
  Not having laws against being weird, not reaching to therapy for weirdness, not considering weirdness pathological, not assigning moral values to being weird or not weird. Moving "who is weird" around doesn't do anything. If you keep me locked up in your basement and torture me and, by some luck, I overpower you and in turn lock you up and torture you, there isn't really any less locking-up-and-torturing, it's just that somebody else is receiving it.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > Not having laws against being weird Well, being gay is legally much more accepted now. Does that count as progress? Or does it not count, because most people don't consider being gay "weird" anymore, as it's become more acceptable? That's what I'm saying: whether you still call being gay "weird" and we've become more accepting, or it's just more accepted because it's no longer considered weird, that's still the same progress.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      It does for gay people, absolutely. Much like it would be progress for me to be released from your cellar. But if we just replace me with you or somebody else, there's still somebody going to be locked in the cellar. At the margins (the actual margins, not the "I'm marginalized mimimi") of society where the weird people are. And I don't think those margins are getting smaller, or the people inhabiting them are treated better. It's just different people that are the outsiders now, and being gay doesn't necessarily put you there (depends on your location, though).

piker 6y ago

> Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling Acceptance of perceived weirdness at the intersection of the custody of minors seems like something which should move on a generational timescale

awinder 6y ago

> avoid working a full-time job The Ryan's World toy review kid has earned $120M playing with toys by age 9, this is like the golden era of full-time job avoidance

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
I wonder how that kid will turn out, child actor style
paulryanrogers 6y ago
Are outliers really that convincing? A large volume of people trying to make it on social media earn pennies.
karatestomp 6y ago
Same as actors and performers in any other era since the invention of recording and mass distribution, providing the possibility (inevitability) for incredible amounts of money to concentrate (almost exclusively) to the very most successful at a given type of performance. You don't have to go through Hollywood (or whatever) anymore but it's still some happy intersection of luck + skill + hard-work (+ connections maybe) making it happen, with no two being sufficient nor all three being any guarantee, like there's always been, and there's still only a tiny (relative to global population) set of people who can be on top at any given time, no matter how high average quality rises. In the case of Ryan's World, he appears to have benefited from a mother willing to quit her job to be his producer very early in his channel's history, and also able to competently perform that job, well before it was clear it'd make serious money. So even for a 9-year-old there's the luck/connections thing playing a huge role in this being a viable possibility, let alone any kind of likely-to-succeed play.

capa3527 6y ago

The type of socially accepted people has changed, because capitalism now profits more from a different type of people compared to 100 years ago. Social progress is an illusion.

rpiguy 6y ago

There are a few BIG differences. * Today you can be smart and popular. There will always be smart kids that get picked on, but there used to be pure, outright hostility toward the smart kids as recently as thirty years ago. This is especially true for women. My grandmother never told us she was valedictorian until we found her diploma cleaning out her house, women just couldn't talk about their intelligence. Even when I went to high school I remember a girl who would lie about her test scores (she would say she did worse than she did so she could fit in with the other girls). * Today you can be openly gay. You will take shit for it, but at least you are out. People used to give you shit for it and you had to keep yourself in the closet or else. Situation is still shitty, but improved from a low bar. * Weirdness can be cool now. Showing an interest in anything other than the mainstream interests used to result in terrible teasing.

leto_ii 6y ago
> Weirdness can be cool now. Showing an interest in anything other than the mainstream interests used to result in terrible teasing. Weirdness almost by definition can't be cool. Or at least not actual weirdness. In the 50's a leather jacket and a motorbike made you 'weird' to the old folks, but incredibly cool to teenagers. Same goes nowadays, only the details differ.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Ok that's classic "No True Scotsman" right there.
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    How so?
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      # Weirdness almost by definition can't be cool. Or at least not actual weirdness. "Actual weirdness" being refined to mean the set the author chose, instead of an independent rule. Circular reasoning, designed to compel the (weak) conclusion you'd been arguing toward.

TomNomNom 6y ago

As someone who was a bit of a weird kid, I definitely think it's easier to be a weirdo today. The main reason being: I can find my fellow weirdos. When I was at school and my peers made fun of me for my even slightly esoteric interests I felt alone. I didn't know anyone else who liked the same things that I did; or at least not to the same, occasionally obsessive, degree. It was hard. Now that the internet exists and is popular: I can find my people. There's probably a forum or subreddit for pretty much any niche I could care to infatuate myself with, and there's creators on YouTube making fantastically long and detailed videos on the minutiae of every subject under the sun. I don't feel alone any more :)

stormdennis 6y ago
If you don't fit in in school, you still have to go. Adults get to decide for themselves and can find their niche even before the internet.
onemoresoop 6y ago
Yes, it's much easier to be weird but not feel bad about it when there is a community of like minded people. Weird is just different from the norm. I've always known that the norm is mediocre anyway
- markrages 6y ago
  Are you still weird if you find a community where you are normal?
  - wtetzner 6y ago
    To the world at large, I guess so. Within the community, I guess not. Weirdness depends on context.
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    No you're not. But you all know you're weird to the outside world and not care much about it, because you belong - a necessary human need is fulfilled

foldr 6y ago

>Wanna be gay? Sure, no problem (in most cities in most parts of the western world) It's better than it was, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "no problem".

dpbriggs 6y ago
Really depends on where you are, and who you interact with. Anecdata: I haven't had any real issues. I have had some worries about undue benefits, and some people become more "careful" once they find out. It really isn't an issue where I live, from my experience.
- foldr 6y ago
  >Really depends on where you are, and who you interact with. And that is emphatically not true for straight people: they are accepted everywhere. If you have to be careful about where you go and who you interact with because of your sexuality, then -- even if you take those restrictions on your life for granted by now -- it's still a demonstration of the continued power of homophobia. I get what you're saying, but I think that attitudes to homophobia are sort of where attitudes to race were in the 90s. People are tempted to mark eliminating homophobia as 'done'. But if you look beyond more privileged folks, there's actually still a ton of homophobia out there, with real consequences. For example, it's been estimated that around 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT.
  - dpbriggs 6y ago
    > I assume you mean 'undue' benefits, and not some kind of special undo feature only available to us gays :) Whoops, fixed :P - Thank you! > And that is emphatically not true for straight people That is a good point. I haven't thought of it as homophobia, but perhaps it is. I definitely recognize that I've been fortunate. Young, in a progressive area, with a good job. Hard to beat. > 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT I wasn't aware of that, and that is awful.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    > 40% of NYC's homeless population is LGBT Source

globular-toast 6y ago

Yeah. Being weird isn't any easier, it's just that what is considered weird has changed. Being into computers used to be considered weird when I was a child (I was a "computer geek"). Now it's accepted and even considered cool. It's not that it's easier for me to be weird now, it's that those aspects aren't considered weird. Things about me that are considered weird get buried on platforms like this. I've had many accounts here banned for it. I don't use foul language or attack people directly. It's just considered weird so it gets banned. I don't think it's easier to be weird. If anything it's much easier to have your life ruined by being considered weird. Take Richard Stallman, for example.

moralestapia 6y ago

>the kinds of things that qualify as weird have definitely shifted Weird to think about what is considered 'weird' now, actually. For instance, more people have distanced from me after I politely tell them that "I don't do drugs" than any other thing I can think of. I honesty don't get it, but yeah, the standards by which people are judged have varied greatly with time.

onemoresoop 6y ago
Things change. Yes, it is weird, but I see your case as somewhat different. People distance from you because they don't want to be judged as weird themselves for doing drugs. They fear that they be misunderstood. Some may also be afraid you may disclose it to others outside the group. Some may indeed judge you for maybe being close minded or not open to new experiences. Do you get the "Have you ever tried {insert recreational drug here}?? You're missing out, etc."
- moralestapia 6y ago
  >Have you ever tried {insert recreational drug here}?? You're missing out, etc. Yeah I get that a lot. I get what you're saying and, incidentally, you made a pretty good point, "People distance from you because they don't want to be judged as weird themselves ..." Isn't this, more or less, always the case? The way I see it is some sort of 'tribal' instinct, us vs. them, kind of thing. The norms that define inclusion/exclusion from the group could change everyday. I find it frustrating and honestly quite sad how many people cannot get past this issue, and how many good relationships and opportunities never take off because of this barrier.
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    Yes, I find it rather sad too, but not as an immutable thing. I think that we have the capacity to move towards a better direction. I am thinking that education has a lot of potential. We could experiment with and introduce some form of early psychology of self discovery to children in schools, something basic to help them learn to reflect. That would guide more people towards self fulfillment and a lot of these problems would simply disappear.

stormdennis 6y ago

Lots of normal people pretending to be on the spectrum of Aspergers/autism may make that sound accepted but the people who really have it face the same hurdles they always have, except maybe in a less honest way, sometimes, which is probably worse. The same goes for mental illness, mental disability and physical disability. SSDD

doorstar 6y ago

> Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling, sell things out of the back of your truck, or avoid working a full-time job? For better or for worse I'd say these have always qualified as 'weird'. Homeschooling is probably less weird now that it would have been when I was a kid. Selling things out of the back of the truck and/or (men) not working a full time job falls pretty short of society's expectations of adult behavior.

wpietri 6y ago

Personally, as a confirmed weirdo, I think it's way easier, at least in America. A few obvious factors: 1. Urbanization. Small towns are suffocating. In cities, people are much less in each other's business. Urbanization has been on an upward march since the country's founding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Urban_and_rural_populations_in_the_United_States_(US_Census_Bureau_(1790_to_2010) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...),_OWID.svg 2. Education. The more people know, the more than can accept. Education has been steadily on the rise for decades: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf 3. Travel. The more you've seen that other places are different, the easier it is to accept difference at home. As recently as 1989, 3% of Americans had passports. Now it's 42%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/#76940c463c16 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh... 4. The decline of patriarchy. For most of American history, women were pretty close to property of men. The main acceptable role was wife, with things like schoolteacher possibly being ok. Even in the 1970s, less than 10% of medicine and law degrees went to women. Only this century did it reach parity: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/more-women-are-doctors-and-lawyers-than-ever-but-progress-is-stalling/266115/ https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/more-women... 5. The decline of racism. America's still hella racist, of course. But talk to racial minorities about exactly where they'd be ok setting the dial on the time machine. 6. The decline in policing of sex and gender. This is very recent, and still ongoing. People are getting to be who they are in ways that were pretty much universally condemned even a few decades ago. 7. The Internet. There are at least three big effects here. One is that people now have as much culture as they care to absorb. Global news? Indie films? Personal essays? We're awash in it. Another is the lack of gatekeepers. On Twitter, I am hearing voices that I didn't even know existed 25 years ago. And third, as others said, it is letting weirdos find their people. If somebody gives me a time machine, I'm only setting that dial forward.

m463 6y ago

> avoid working a full-time job I've always been told the difference between eccentric and crazy is income level.

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