22 ms·

Weirdos in the depression

389 points by johndcook 6y ago

new2628 6y ago
The stories are charming. I find the last sentence hopelessly naive.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  I don't. It's easy to be cynical, but the internet in particular has given birth to or allowed to flourish a number of...interesting communities. Not to mention tolerance on a number of dimensions, like race, gender, and sexuality, is way up. You could argue that it's not that we're nicer to "weirdos", but rather we've expanded the bounds of what's considered non-weird behavior, but at that point you've basically just used circular reasoning: "Niceness to weirdos is constant because I define weirdness such that niceness to weirdos is constant."
- montenegrohugo 6y ago
  Why so? For the most part, modern society doesn't really care about who you are and what you do. Most things have become very dehumanized, for good and for worse. You can order whatever food and food combinations you want, just make the order and wait for it to arrive. The driver won't judge you; he cares little and has probably seen weirder orders. It is also easier than ever to find people with similar interests and 'weirdness' as you: there's a zillion small (or not so small) communities that find each other on the internet. Furries, lgbtq+, or magic card collectors. There is still some judgment and negative social repercussions of course, but magnitudes smaller than what it used to be a hundred years ago.
  - new2628 6y ago
    I meant that what is considered weird has shifted. What was weird before is easily accepted today. Some stuff that was accepted earlier has become a no-go.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Social mores change, sure. But it does seem like tolerance for the weird has broadened much among the youth. And yeah, certain attitudes and behaviors in the past are now taboo. A good depiction of that phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSa368X1Z2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSa368X1Z2w
- rattray 6y ago
  I keep in touch with my high school teachers every now and then, asking about how "kids these days" are evolving. The biggest trend has been that socializing now occurs digitally – during breaks, classrooms are silent as students use snapchat. Another trend that's really stood out – not just at my school, but according to other educators I've talked to across the US – is much less bullying, and much more acceptance of kids who are different (especially those with disabilities). I'm lead to believe that the sort of kid who would previously have been a bully is now the type to really stick up for someone who is differently abled. Of course, having a "weird" preference of some kind – like a partner of another race or a long beard – is a different thing, but still, my impression is that most schools at least in the US are far more tolerant of differentness now than even 20-30 years ago.
  - zeveb 6y ago
    > I'm lead to believe that the sort of kid who would previously have been a bully is now the type to really stick up for someone who is differently abled. Or who enjoys bullying a different outgroup now. That does raise questions about the nature of bullying. Do bullies see themselves as heroic protectors of the norm, whether that norm is white people in the 1890s or trans Eskimos in the 2020s? How do bullies experience their own bullying of others? Do they feel righteous? There has to be a literature about this.
  - bambataa 6y ago
    How do educators keep track of bullying if it's nearly all online? Given that educators often struggle to detect bullying happening out in the open.
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    I wonder if that's just because differences are simply more prevalent. When I was in school, I was the fat kid. Of course, this lead to a lot of bullying towards me. Nowadays, I see lots of kids whom are much fatter than I was, but there are enough of them at this point where it's probably just normal to be overweight or obese, which would make me suspect that they are bullied less than I was. If my past child self went to school today, maybe he wouldn't even be considered fat. The irony in that is that children shouldn't be getting fat in the first place, so this isn't necessarily a good sign.
aminozuur 6y ago
I can think of some examples in my own life where I felt like I had to 'larp' (pretend) in order to fit into the community I was part of. Luckily, I've stopped giving a fuck as I've grown older.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  Realizing that I don't have to give a fuck has definitely felt like an important step towards actual emotional/intellectual maturity. It has happened to me relatively recently, so I'm still new to the feeling :D
  - k__ 6y ago
    Don't know if age or success is the reason people stop giving a fuck. Some people are full of shit, but hide it until they are more successful, which often correlates with age, and then stop to care and show the world their real face.
    - leto_ii 6y ago
      I'm not particularly old or successful. I also think we might have different ideas of what "not giving a fuck" means. To me it's about being true and at ease with myself, even when I'm uncool or weird. It certainly doesn't mean being an asshole, rude etc.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  If I could send messages back to my 12yo self it would be "quit pretending to give a damn about football." Football was a big deal where I grew up and I spent a lot of time keeping up with it to "fit in." Fortunately I figured out it didn't matter by the time I got to college (which happened to be a major football university). To this day when I tell people I went to UT Austin their first response is usually "Longhorns are doing great this year aren't they?" "I have no idea" I respond. "But they have very good EE and CS departments."
  - QuesnayJr 6y ago
throwaway_jobs 6y ago
> Doc has a beard, and people are always asking him why he has a beard. Doc learned a long time ago that it makes people angry and suspicious if he tells the truth I purposely have a big ole homeless looking beard specifically to keep people at arms length. Ironically one time in a single weekend it backfired twice...on a Friday while doing planks/pushups on a yoga mat in a park I was attacked by someone yelling “get out of my country” because they thought I was a Muslim praying to Mecca. Then the very next day I went to fresh market and ordered bacon and baby back ribs from the butcher and was confronted in the store by a man who followed me into the parking lot to attack me for being a bad Jew and ordering bacon and ribs on the sabbath. I’m neither Muslim nor Jewish, and even after learning this neither of my attackers were apologetic.
- dijit 6y ago
  Ugly and Horrible. People will find any excuse to be cunts to each other and feel entitled to do so. Sometimes it feels like nobody is following the cardinal rule: be excellent to each other.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I've heard that Jedi is an official response in Oz, but is there anywhere one can claim "Bill & Ted-ism" as a religion?
  - sneak 6y ago
    Being excellent to others, in my book, means giving people the benefit of the doubt and not presuming that they will find any excuse to be entitled cunts to others. In my experience, most people are not like that. There are, of course, self-righteous jerks everywhere, but in every society I find them to be a small minority.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - firethief 6y ago
    Could we maybe choose less sexist insults in the thread on acceptance?
dan-robertson 6y ago
I like the examples but I’m not sure I agree with the conclusion. An alternative argument is that it’s in some sense easier to be a weirdo or misfit today because much of what was a weirdo or misfit in 1935 is now accepted today (though I guess other things aren’t)
jaspax 6y ago
I have my doubts that being a weirdo is actually that much easier today, and I see that others have made the same point. However, the kinds of things that qualify as weird have definitely shifted. Wanna be gay? Sure, no problem (in most cities in most parts of the western world). Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling, sell things out of the back of your truck, or avoid working a full-time job? Expect to get a lot of hassle both from society and from the state.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  This is circular reasoning. "We're not any nicer to weirdos. How do I know? Well, because the subset of people we're still not nice to, we're not nice to!" Bare minimum, there's always going to be some demographic ostracized by society, even if that demographic is only, like, murderous cannibals. Only looking at whichever demographics are currently treated poorly to evaluate how society treats the people who it treats poorly means you've fixed the "niceness to weirdos" quotient in place by definition.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    A society which truly integrated their murderous cannibals would reserve bbq spots in the park for them. But no, they just have to put up with the cold shoulder.
    - igravious 6y ago
      Would you rather we get cold feet or that they have to put up with the cold shoulder?
      - throwanem 6y ago
        Well, that's the point. Give them a grill and the shoulder won't be cold any more.
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    I would qualify murderous cannibals as dangerous criminals, not weirdos. Weirdos are people who aren't doing anything wrong, but who are ostracized for not conforming to arbitrary social norms.
forinti 6y ago
I've just read a nice little contemporary Japanese book about a woman who has a hard time not being "normal": Convenience Store Woman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convenience_Store_Woman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convenience_Store_Woman
zeveb 6y ago
> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. I think it just depends. Some things are more accepted, others less. It might be pretty career-limiting if one admitted that the reason one never works Sunday mornings is because one is at church.
- learc83 6y ago
  In the US that shouldn't be career limiting, 3/4 of people are religious and most go to church at least some of the time. Also who works on Sunday morning?
  - yoz-y 6y ago
    Employees in shops. One reason I moved into a big city is to be able to do grocery shopping on a Sunday morning.
    - learc83 6y ago
      I get that there are people working retail, but I was asking that mainly about programmers. >One reason I moved into a big city is to be able to do grocery shopping on a Sunday morning. Nearly every grocery store in every small town in the country is open on Sunday morning. Is it different where you're from?
      - yoz-y 6y ago
        > Nearly every grocery store in every small town in the country is open on Sunday morning. Is it different where you're from? Yes in France in most smaller towns Sunday most everything will be closed. There are special rules about working on Sunday in the law.
fnord123 6y ago
Both of these books are fiction. I don't see how any conclusions can be drawn about how easy or hard it is to be a weirdo in any particular time.
- igravious 6y ago
  Fiction is art. Part of the utility of art is that it holds up a mirror to society. This is fiction doing what it is meant to be doing.
  - fnord123 6y ago
    Do/did these works hold up a mirror to society? Or are they heavily fictionalized so as to color the world with the idealizations and prejudices of the author that they aren't really recognizable.
    - igravious 6y ago
      > Do/did these works hold up a mirror to society? Probably, seeing as they're both literary classics. (I've read both.)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
throwaway98797 6y ago
Society tells you to be honest but then only let’s you be free if you lie.
- Borish_Johnson 6y ago
  Sad to see this comment getting down voted. I struggle with this in therapy A LOT. Everyone seems to be lying to each other ALL the time and we just need to "get over that".
- hinkley 6y ago
  Makes you wonder what we really think about freedom.
LeonM 6y ago
> So he's in the habit of explaining that the beard covers up an ugly scar. Then people are okay with it and even sympathetic. Hah! My dad does the same thing with his mustache. People keep bothering him about his unusually large mustache, so he always tells people it is to cover a cleft lip.
peterwwillis 6y ago
> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. Everything is easier for people now than it was in 1935.
geocrasher 6y ago
I think that it's not easier to be accepted because you're an oddball. I think it's easier to accept yourself as an oddball. People all over the Internet are oddballs to the greatest degree, and they aren't outcasts- they're founders, CEO's and engineers. I am personally a Nobody, which I'm completely fine with, but I let my geek flag fly. I am unapologetic about any of the things I'm into, whether it be science, "maker" scene type stuff, ham radio stuff, or even religion. I am who I am. I've accepted it, and I expect others to accept it if they want to. I'm really okay with people thinking I'm a weirdo. I kind of am in a lot of ways, but I don't care. Back then, you had to care. And in some cases, you still do.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I think acceptance in itself will actually make you less of a weirdo. It makes you less focused on "proving yourself", or thinking you need to look or act a certain way, makes you less defensive, and it makes you carry yourself at ease, looking confident. Being able to understand and accept yourself are some of the most important developments both me and my girlfriend have gone through in the past ten or so years.
  - geocrasher 6y ago
    Self acceptance and forgiveness is one of the greatest gifts a person can give themselves. It allows you to actually be okay with who you are, and if you don't like something you now are allowed to focus your efforts on self improvement instead of self doubt or even self hate. It's been a long road here, too.
chrischattin 6y ago
Interesting thought. I think the weirdos today look a little different than the classic stereotype. Being a geek/nerd actually became cool. In the 90's, it really was only the weirdos who were into programming and computers. Coming out of the closet used to be very risky. Not just socially, but you opened yourself up to real physical danger. It took a lot of guts to be honest with yourself and openly be who you were. Now, being gay is fashionable. Look that the things that aren't considered cool to do/say/think today and you'll find the weirdos. I think they make our world richer.
- ryanianian 6y ago
  I wouldn't say "fashionable," more that it's not widely looked at with fear, disgust, and moral judgment. It's still hard to come out: the stakes are high, and it takes a long time for your loved-ones to re-adjust their view of the world and how you fit into it. But once that happens it's no longer an "identifying" trait for many, so it's no longer a "weird" thing.
- charliesome 6y ago
  From the rest of your comment I assume that you mean well, but I would encourage you to reconsider your statement that being gay is fashionable, and reflect on why it might be offensive to some people.
  - chrischattin 6y ago
    Maybe it has negative connotations for you. But, I think it was an appropriate use of the word as many aspects of LGBT culture have worked their way into popular culture and are now considered cool (regardless of one’s sexual preferences).
    - tygrak 6y ago
      Don't forget a certain F word is still used as an insult in English. And don't forget there are places in the world, where being openly gay is definitely not accepted (like Russia). Or even parts of the world, where it will definitely get you killed.
ravenstine 6y ago
I see this phenomenon as similar to the noble lie, except that it's to avoid personal trouble as opposed to some other altruistic reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie I've told my share of personal noble lies because many people can't let go of irrational causes behind my actions. In order for them to easily accept my eccentricities, I have to provide a rationale, even though I'm well aware that many of the thing that I do are not motivated by reason but instead my unconscious. There's more minor reason that I tell personal noble lies, which is that if someone asks me why I do X thing, and I actually tell them the truth, said truth is usually ridiculously simple, in which case they think that I'm blowing them off. In these cases, it's better for interpersonal relations for me to have either a canned story , or make something up on the fly, that's more interesting than the real one. The first example that comes to mind is my father, whom is a great man in my eyes but, if we haven't talked in a while, he will ask me "What do you eat these days?" Depending on whether I'm trying to lose weight, I may have literally no rhyme or reason behind my eating habits. Often times, I couldn't tell you what it is that I tend to eat or have eaten. If I told my father "I don't know. I eat lots of things and don't think about it much.", I can tell that he interprets that as me trying to end the discussion. In that case, I don't necessarily make up a total lie, but I will try and remember the things I ate in the last few days and then speak like those are the things that I eat all the time, and I might even say something like "I eat the steak and eggs a lot because I'm trying to build some muscle." Another example has to do with my mode of dress. Anyone who knows me knows that I wear the exact same outfit 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I wear a black t-shirt that's well fitting, jeans, and dress shoes. This is a bit of a strange outfit to some, and the dress shoes are funny to most people. The real reason that I dress this way is that I don't want to waste time and brain power deciding what to wear and in what combination; I don't care what I look like so long as what I look like is acceptable and fits my self image. This is not a satisfactory answer to most people, in my experience, and I suspect it's because they simply don't relate. The average person doesn't see the value in removing unnecessary choice from their daily routine, and their choice to wear a particular garment may indeed be necessary to them. So what I tell them is that I like to wear black because it doesn't stain, and I wear the dress shoes because they happen to be very water resistant when I step through puddles.
criddell 6y ago
The last (and only) Steinbeck I read was Grapes of Wrath in high school and 17 year old me thought it was okay. Would Cannery Row be a good choice for somebody who wants to give Steinbeck another try?
- zeckalpha 6y ago
  Yes, I enjoyed it. It’s a short read, too.
- circlefavshape 6y ago
  Yes! Cannery Row is a glorious book
- nabilhat 6y ago
  I definitely recommend Cannery Row, it was fun and rowdy and not all that long but still as memorable to me as Grapes of Wrath even if vastly different.
- mjd 6y ago
  I'd say yes. It's not that long, and it's not so much a single story as a series of related episodes. Also, I think it shows Steinbeck at his best and at his worst at the same time. He really wants to hit you over the head with the dogged bravery with which people pursue even their hopeless lives. When it works, it works, and when he tries too hard, it's bathetic.
Rerarom 6y ago
I had a professor who drank (presumably water) from a vodka bottle during an exam to mess with us.
motohagiography 6y ago
The same is true now. People can be unforgiving if you challenge or change their world views, because while interesting, you have deprived them of psychological safety and the infallibility of their senses and beliefs. Worse, you may have infected them and exposed them to your weirdo social exile. What has changed is normal world views encompass more variation as a result of things like communications tech, seeing earth from the moon and space, adapting to urbanization and globalization, but there are still edges, and some very hard boundaries. I used to be a weirdo, now I'm more of an intellectual traveller. Definitely from somewhere, just not here.
LandR 6y ago
I think it depends what you mean by weirdo. It's much easier to have odd interests nowadays and wierd hobbies because you can counter it by dressing well, good personal grooming and being in shape. People are very accomodating of peculiar people nowadays as long as your are aesthetically pleasing to look at. I don't know if that's forward progress or it's just shifted sideways.
- phendrenad2 6y ago
  Sounds like you're describing the Halo Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect
5cott0 6y ago
I did it to protect my good reputation in case anyone ever caught me walking around with crab apples in my cheeks. With rubber balls in my hands I could deny there were crab apples in my cheeks. Everytime someone asked me why I was walking around with crab apples in my cheeks, I'd just open my hands and show them it was rubber balls I was walking around with, not crab apples, and that they were in my hands, not my cheeks. It was a good story, but I never knew if it got across or not, since its pretty hard to make people understand you when your talking to them with two crab apples in your cheeks. - Catch 22
- basicplus2 6y ago
  "When I was a kid, I used to walk around all day with crab apples in my cheeks. One in each cheek." ... A minute passed. "Why?" [Yossarian] found himself forced to ask finally. Orr tittered triumphantly. "Because they're better than horse chestnuts... When I couldn't get crab apples," Orr continued, "I used horse chestnuts. Horse chestnuts are about the same size as crab apples and actually have a better shape, although the shape doesn't matter a bit." "Why did you walk around with crab apples in your cheeks?" Yossarian asked again. "That's what I asked." "Because they've got a better shape than horse chestnuts," Orr answered. "I just told you that." "Why," swore Yossarian at him approvingly, "you evil-eyed, mechanically aptituded, disaffiliated son of a bitch, did you walk around with anything in your cheeks?" "I didn't," Orr said, "walk around with anything in my cheeks. I walked around with crab applies in my cheeks. When I couldn't get crab apples I walked around with horse chestnuts. In my cheeks.
photonemitter 6y ago
I just remembered reading something years back about how “because” is a magical word. People are surprisingly more susceptible and accepting of any request if you add a “because X” where the reason can be almost entirely arbitrary. Examples included “can I cut in line, because I’m parked in a tow-away zone”, which resulted in something like 70% compliance vs 10-20% if the person didn’t proffer the added “because” Was also examples of ridiculous ones like “can I use the photocopier before you (to a person copying 2 pages), because I have to make 200 copies of this (significantly bigger paper)” Surprisingly this also got a higher rate of compliance even though the request did not make any sense per-se. TL;DR: Providing an explanation for any questionable request “closes” the narrative in a sense. The person now feels there is a justification for whatever made the situation weird to begin with, and therefore the situation no longer requires them to come up with justifications on their own. (Brains/minds being lazy and whatnot)
- andygcook 6y ago
  The study this references was mentioned in the book Influence by Robert Cialdini. IIRC, even using the word because with a circular objective results in higher compliance. For example, “Excuse me. Can I use the xerox machine because I have to make copies?” resulted in 90%+ compliance rate vs. a ~50% rate with just “Excuse me. Can I use the xerox machine?” My memory is probably slightly with the exact percentages, but I always found that study fascinating.
stared 6y ago
For another example: "Winnie the Pooh". Every character seems to be affected by a disorder (vide https://fantheories.fandom.com/wiki/Winnie_the_Pooh https://fantheories.fandom.com/wiki/Winnie_the_Pooh), but it is fine. They accept each other as they are.
battery423 6y ago
Imagine a world where everyone only enforces laws onto others when it actually affects themself. Like human shit who is littering.
officemonkey 6y ago
Mezz Mezzrow was a Jewish C-list Jazz clarinetist from Chicago that was active during the depression. He was also a successful marijuana dealer to the Jazz community. He married a black woman, moved to Harlem, and called himself a "voluntary Negro." When he was arrested at the Worlds Fair (60 marijuana cigarettes with intent to distribute) he convinced the cops he was black and thus was housed with black prisoners. He was good friends with Louis Armstrong and has such a cult status among Jazz fans that there's a NYC Jazz Club named in his honor. As Dylan wrote "To live outside the law, you must be honest." Especially so when conformity was life-threatening.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  So the claim is he actually released some OK stuff at the end. How true is that?
  - officemonkey 6y ago
    Trad clarinet isn't terribly difficult compared to post-bebop jazz. Pee Wee Russell and Benny Goodman were probably the best at it in the 60s. I don't think I have any post-1930s Mezzrow recordings to make an assessment.
at_a_remove 6y ago
Personally, I believe that there is a Conservation of Weirdness going on. Certain things are outside of the statistical norm (or mode, or whatever terminology you choose), with varying degrees of acceptability. What is acceptable now might not have been acceptable then, but something else will have become unacceptable in its place. The current acceptability is a factor in determining how many Weirdo Points you accumulate for your various abnormalities.
technothrasher 6y ago
> Doc has a whim to try drinking a beer milkshake Yeah, I had that same whim one time back about twenty five years ago... Let's just say that the idea of a beer milkshake is much better than the reality.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
RookyNumbas 6y ago
Doc may have been a weirdo, but he was also the most popular and liked person in the entire town. The plot revolves around people trying to throw parties for him because they think he's so great. Today, no matter your weirdness, it's likely been productized and advertised to the masses in some way.
galoisgirl 6y ago
It's still hard to challenge stereotypes. You're not white, where are you from? Michigan? But where are you really from? You've lost weight, how did you do it? Eat less? No, you must have found some magical shortcut, you just don't want to reveal your secret.
adamc 6y ago
The envelope is a little bigger, but it's still hard. Try working with facial tattoos, or (if you are male), wearing anklets to work. Or being polyamorous in a lot of contexts. I could go on... At enormous costs, gay people and others have widened certain channels a little, but the mindset of conformity still drives us -- so thoroughly that it was even hard to think of examples, a second ago. We are socialized in childhood, and later from our teenage peers, not to step outside the norms for our communities. We fear to be different, and we fear the different, and it isn't even clear why. Why should I care if someone else is walking around naked? Why should I care if my coworker has tattoos? Or a thousand other things.
- overgard 6y ago
  I agree people shouldn't judge, and I'm not defending it, but I think the fear they have is this: if you look like a certain "type", there's a decent chance your behaviour is predictable, and thus, safe (or at least manageable). But if you're just completely different people have no model to predict how you'll act. When people are confronted with that, some people react with hostility, some with avoidance, some by freezing up -- and some rare souls who have the confidence to have an open mind.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    "And Then There Were None", SF by Eric Frank Russell, purposely characterises the natives as not fitting into "types" and thereby creeping out the Terrans who have come to explore (and exploit?) their planet...
cafard 6y ago
Of course the option is open to those in power also. Doesn't Boris Johnson's disheveled hair signify to all that he isn't to be relied on for accuracy, truth, or judgment?
henearkr 6y ago
I can't even begin to tell how hard it is to be weirdo (e.g. vegan, teetotaller) even nowadays in some (although very much developped) societies like Japan. I am both (vegan & teetotaller), working in Japan, and a substantial part of my coworkers were mad at me. Another coworker is vegetarian because of some health condition, and nobody bothers him.
- Taylor_OD 6y ago
  Being a teetotaller is incredibly difficult in many parts of the world. I realized later after I started drinking for the first time in my life that many people feel that teetotallers are judging them for drinking even if that is not the case.
ldd 6y ago
> “Lee. Got more name. Lee papa family name. Call Lee.” “I’ve read quite a lot about China. You born in China?” “No. Born here.” Samuel was silent for quite a long time while the buggy lurched down the wheel track toward the dusty valley. ““Lee,” he said at last, “I mean no disrespect, but I’ve never been able to figure why you people still talk pidgin when an illiterate baboon from the black bogs of Ireland, with a head full of Gaelic and a tongue like a potato, learns to talk a poor grade of English in ten years.” Lee grinned. “Me talkee Chinese talk,” he said. “Well, I guess you have your reasons. And it’s not my affair. I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe it, Lee.” Lee looked at him and the brown eyes under their rounded upper lids seemed to open and deepen until they weren’t foreign any more, but man’s eyes, warm with understanding. Lee chuckled. “It’s more than a convenience,” he said. “It’s even more than self-protection. Mostly we have to use it to be understood at all.” Samuel showed no sign of having observed any change. “I can understand the first two,” he said thoughtfully, “but the third escapes me.” Lee said, “I know it’s hard to believe, but it has happened so often to me and to my friends that we take if for granted. If I should go up to a lady or a gentleman, for instance, and speak as I am doing now, I wouldn’t be understood.” “Why not?” “Pidgin they expect, and pidgin they’ll listen to. But English from me they don’t listen to, and so they don’t understand it.” “Can that be possible? How do I understand you?” “That’s why I’m talking to you. You are one of the rare people who can separate your observation from your preconception. You see what is, where most people see what they expect.” - East of Eden, John Steinbeck
- war1025 6y ago
  East of Eden is a great book. Highly recommend it, and really any of Steinbeck's works. Surprisingly relatable, even with how much times have changed since they were written.
chias 6y ago
> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. Jane doesn't have children, and people are always asking her why she doesn't have children. Jane learned a long time ago that it makes people angry and suspicious if she tells the truth, which is that she doesn't have children because she doesn't want children. So she's in the habit of explaining that she can't have children as a result of a medically necessary hysterectomy. Then people are okay with it and even sympathetic. (There was no hysterectomy.) Some things don't change all that much.
SeanFerree 6y ago
Great read!!
bitwize 6y ago
> Mr. Raymond explains he is not actually a drunk, he only pretends to be one so that the ⸢respectable⸣ people will write him off, stay off his back about his black spouse and kids, and leave him alone. If they think it's because he's an alcoholic they can fit it into their worldview and let it go, which they wouldn't do if they suspected the truth, which is that it's his choice. Rick: Y'see, Morty? It's just like I always said: there's an upside to being a drunk. It means people leave you alone, and they won't bother you with their stupid opinions on whatever it is you're doing that they know nothing about. Morty: Uh, gee, Rick, I don't think that justifies annihilating universe G-435 on a bender... Rick: Shut up Morty. That was a calculated risk. Pburpeople who don't take risks are like Galvani's frog legs: twitching, but not really alive.
stcredzero 6y ago
I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. In Columbia, SC in the 1990's, all of us misfits hung out with each other. We had wildly diverse world views. We even had heated arguments with each other at times. However, we were all vaguely united in our being non-mainstream. If there were cliques, they could have their own gatherings without any outsiders, but we also shared lots of spaces. The only people ever ostracized were the Nazi Punks. However, the World Music folks, eastern religion/woo enthusiasts, Old Timey music people, Rude Boys/Rude Girls, metalheads, punks (of several varieties), alternative music crowd, Harley motorbike enthusiasts, some of the Baptist street preachers/missionaries, neo-hippies, actual hippies, etc...we all hung out at the same cafes and music venues. In the 21st century Bay Area, I find a lot more cliquishness of a particular aggressive, conformist kind. There can be this kind of quizzing/seeking for what you "really think," which might well be followed by judgments based on shallow outward signifiers and even outright verbal aggression. In years past, I never experienced something like that, outside of certain of the most intolerant religious/homophobic/ethnic zealots, usually sparked off by my appearance and/or ethnicity. Subdivisions In the high school halls In the shopping malls Conform or be cast out Subdivisions In the basement bars In the backs of cars Be cool or be cast out
diffrinse 6y ago
American society in particular is ultra-legalistic but supplements the bareness of context with unwritten rules, some communicated in code, in implicit ideations (the ongoing looting in major cities are referred to as "violent"), some through passive observation or mimesis (like learning how to stare at African-Americans from one's avowed liberal parents).
agumonkey 6y ago
I get seriously torn about resorting to trickstery to live in society. I'd rather live in the woods than faking human relationships, but society seems to force that upon us too often.

389 points by johndcook 6y ago

new2628 6y ago

The stories are charming. I find the last sentence hopelessly naive.

TulliusCicero 6y ago
I don't. It's easy to be cynical, but the internet in particular has given birth to or allowed to flourish a number of...interesting communities. Not to mention tolerance on a number of dimensions, like race, gender, and sexuality, is way up. You could argue that it's not that we're nicer to "weirdos", but rather we've expanded the bounds of what's considered non-weird behavior, but at that point you've basically just used circular reasoning: "Niceness to weirdos is constant because I define weirdness such that niceness to weirdos is constant."
montenegrohugo 6y ago
Why so? For the most part, modern society doesn't really care about who you are and what you do. Most things have become very dehumanized, for good and for worse. You can order whatever food and food combinations you want, just make the order and wait for it to arrive. The driver won't judge you; he cares little and has probably seen weirder orders. It is also easier than ever to find people with similar interests and 'weirdness' as you: there's a zillion small (or not so small) communities that find each other on the internet. Furries, lgbtq+, or magic card collectors. There is still some judgment and negative social repercussions of course, but magnitudes smaller than what it used to be a hundred years ago.
- new2628 6y ago
  I meant that what is considered weird has shifted. What was weird before is easily accepted today. Some stuff that was accepted earlier has become a no-go.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Social mores change, sure. But it does seem like tolerance for the weird has broadened much among the youth. And yeah, certain attitudes and behaviors in the past are now taboo. A good depiction of that phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSa368X1Z2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSa368X1Z2w
rattray 6y ago
I keep in touch with my high school teachers every now and then, asking about how "kids these days" are evolving. The biggest trend has been that socializing now occurs digitally – during breaks, classrooms are silent as students use snapchat. Another trend that's really stood out – not just at my school, but according to other educators I've talked to across the US – is much less bullying, and much more acceptance of kids who are different (especially those with disabilities). I'm lead to believe that the sort of kid who would previously have been a bully is now the type to really stick up for someone who is differently abled. Of course, having a "weird" preference of some kind – like a partner of another race or a long beard – is a different thing, but still, my impression is that most schools at least in the US are far more tolerant of differentness now than even 20-30 years ago.
- zeveb 6y ago
  > I'm lead to believe that the sort of kid who would previously have been a bully is now the type to really stick up for someone who is differently abled. Or who enjoys bullying a different outgroup now. That does raise questions about the nature of bullying. Do bullies see themselves as heroic protectors of the norm, whether that norm is white people in the 1890s or trans Eskimos in the 2020s? How do bullies experience their own bullying of others? Do they feel righteous? There has to be a literature about this.
- bambataa 6y ago
  How do educators keep track of bullying if it's nearly all online? Given that educators often struggle to detect bullying happening out in the open.
- ravenstine 6y ago
  I wonder if that's just because differences are simply more prevalent. When I was in school, I was the fat kid. Of course, this lead to a lot of bullying towards me. Nowadays, I see lots of kids whom are much fatter than I was, but there are enough of them at this point where it's probably just normal to be overweight or obese, which would make me suspect that they are bullied less than I was. If my past child self went to school today, maybe he wouldn't even be considered fat. The irony in that is that children shouldn't be getting fat in the first place, so this isn't necessarily a good sign.

aminozuur 6y ago

I can think of some examples in my own life where I felt like I had to 'larp' (pretend) in order to fit into the community I was part of. Luckily, I've stopped giving a fuck as I've grown older.

leto_ii 6y ago
Realizing that I don't have to give a fuck has definitely felt like an important step towards actual emotional/intellectual maturity. It has happened to me relatively recently, so I'm still new to the feeling :D
- k__ 6y ago
  Don't know if age or success is the reason people stop giving a fuck. Some people are full of shit, but hide it until they are more successful, which often correlates with age, and then stop to care and show the world their real face.
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    I'm not particularly old or successful. I also think we might have different ideas of what "not giving a fuck" means. To me it's about being true and at ease with myself, even when I'm uncool or weird. It certainly doesn't mean being an asshole, rude etc.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
If I could send messages back to my 12yo self it would be "quit pretending to give a damn about football." Football was a big deal where I grew up and I spent a lot of time keeping up with it to "fit in." Fortunately I figured out it didn't matter by the time I got to college (which happened to be a major football university). To this day when I tell people I went to UT Austin their first response is usually "Longhorns are doing great this year aren't they?" "I have no idea" I respond. "But they have very good EE and CS departments."
- QuesnayJr 6y ago

throwaway_jobs 6y ago

> Doc has a beard, and people are always asking him why he has a beard. Doc learned a long time ago that it makes people angry and suspicious if he tells the truth I purposely have a big ole homeless looking beard specifically to keep people at arms length. Ironically one time in a single weekend it backfired twice...on a Friday while doing planks/pushups on a yoga mat in a park I was attacked by someone yelling “get out of my country” because they thought I was a Muslim praying to Mecca. Then the very next day I went to fresh market and ordered bacon and baby back ribs from the butcher and was confronted in the store by a man who followed me into the parking lot to attack me for being a bad Jew and ordering bacon and ribs on the sabbath. I’m neither Muslim nor Jewish, and even after learning this neither of my attackers were apologetic.

dijit 6y ago
Ugly and Horrible. People will find any excuse to be cunts to each other and feel entitled to do so. Sometimes it feels like nobody is following the cardinal rule: be excellent to each other.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  I've heard that Jedi is an official response in Oz, but is there anywhere one can claim "Bill & Ted-ism" as a religion?
- sneak 6y ago
  Being excellent to others, in my book, means giving people the benefit of the doubt and not presuming that they will find any excuse to be entitled cunts to others. In my experience, most people are not like that. There are, of course, self-righteous jerks everywhere, but in every society I find them to be a small minority.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- firethief 6y ago
  Could we maybe choose less sexist insults in the thread on acceptance?

dan-robertson 6y ago

I like the examples but I’m not sure I agree with the conclusion. An alternative argument is that it’s in some sense easier to be a weirdo or misfit today because much of what was a weirdo or misfit in 1935 is now accepted today (though I guess other things aren’t)

jaspax 6y ago

I have my doubts that being a weirdo is actually that much easier today, and I see that others have made the same point. However, the kinds of things that qualify as weird have definitely shifted. Wanna be gay? Sure, no problem (in most cities in most parts of the western world). Want to avoid sending your kids to formal schooling, sell things out of the back of your truck, or avoid working a full-time job? Expect to get a lot of hassle both from society and from the state.

TulliusCicero 6y ago
This is circular reasoning. "We're not any nicer to weirdos. How do I know? Well, because the subset of people we're still not nice to, we're not nice to!" Bare minimum, there's always going to be some demographic ostracized by society, even if that demographic is only, like, murderous cannibals. Only looking at whichever demographics are currently treated poorly to evaluate how society treats the people who it treats poorly means you've fixed the "niceness to weirdos" quotient in place by definition.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  A society which truly integrated their murderous cannibals would reserve bbq spots in the park for them. But no, they just have to put up with the cold shoulder.
  - igravious 6y ago
    Would you rather we get cold feet or that they have to put up with the cold shoulder?
    - throwanem 6y ago
      Well, that's the point. Give them a grill and the shoulder won't be cold any more.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  I would qualify murderous cannibals as dangerous criminals, not weirdos. Weirdos are people who aren't doing anything wrong, but who are ostracized for not conforming to arbitrary social norms.

forinti 6y ago

I've just read a nice little contemporary Japanese book about a woman who has a hard time not being "normal": Convenience Store Woman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convenience_Store_Woman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convenience_Store_Woman

zeveb 6y ago

> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. I think it just depends. Some things are more accepted, others less. It might be pretty career-limiting if one admitted that the reason one never works Sunday mornings is because one is at church.

learc83 6y ago
In the US that shouldn't be career limiting, 3/4 of people are religious and most go to church at least some of the time. Also who works on Sunday morning?
- yoz-y 6y ago
  Employees in shops. One reason I moved into a big city is to be able to do grocery shopping on a Sunday morning.
  - learc83 6y ago
    I get that there are people working retail, but I was asking that mainly about programmers. >One reason I moved into a big city is to be able to do grocery shopping on a Sunday morning. Nearly every grocery store in every small town in the country is open on Sunday morning. Is it different where you're from?
    - yoz-y 6y ago
      > Nearly every grocery store in every small town in the country is open on Sunday morning. Is it different where you're from? Yes in France in most smaller towns Sunday most everything will be closed. There are special rules about working on Sunday in the law.

fnord123 6y ago

Both of these books are fiction. I don't see how any conclusions can be drawn about how easy or hard it is to be a weirdo in any particular time.

igravious 6y ago
Fiction is art. Part of the utility of art is that it holds up a mirror to society. This is fiction doing what it is meant to be doing.
- fnord123 6y ago
  Do/did these works hold up a mirror to society? Or are they heavily fictionalized so as to color the world with the idealizations and prejudices of the author that they aren't really recognizable.
  - igravious 6y ago
    > Do/did these works hold up a mirror to society? Probably, seeing as they're both literary classics. (I've read both.)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

throwaway98797 6y ago

Society tells you to be honest but then only let’s you be free if you lie.

Borish_Johnson 6y ago
Sad to see this comment getting down voted. I struggle with this in therapy A LOT. Everyone seems to be lying to each other ALL the time and we just need to "get over that".
hinkley 6y ago
Makes you wonder what we really think about freedom.

LeonM 6y ago

> So he's in the habit of explaining that the beard covers up an ugly scar. Then people are okay with it and even sympathetic. Hah! My dad does the same thing with his mustache. People keep bothering him about his unusually large mustache, so he always tells people it is to cover a cleft lip.

peterwwillis 6y ago

> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. Everything is easier for people now than it was in 1935.

geocrasher 6y ago

I think that it's not easier to be accepted because you're an oddball. I think it's easier to accept yourself as an oddball. People all over the Internet are oddballs to the greatest degree, and they aren't outcasts- they're founders, CEO's and engineers. I am personally a Nobody, which I'm completely fine with, but I let my geek flag fly. I am unapologetic about any of the things I'm into, whether it be science, "maker" scene type stuff, ham radio stuff, or even religion. I am who I am. I've accepted it, and I expect others to accept it if they want to. I'm really okay with people thinking I'm a weirdo. I kind of am in a lot of ways, but I don't care. Back then, you had to care. And in some cases, you still do.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I think acceptance in itself will actually make you less of a weirdo. It makes you less focused on "proving yourself", or thinking you need to look or act a certain way, makes you less defensive, and it makes you carry yourself at ease, looking confident. Being able to understand and accept yourself are some of the most important developments both me and my girlfriend have gone through in the past ten or so years.
- geocrasher 6y ago
  Self acceptance and forgiveness is one of the greatest gifts a person can give themselves. It allows you to actually be okay with who you are, and if you don't like something you now are allowed to focus your efforts on self improvement instead of self doubt or even self hate. It's been a long road here, too.

chrischattin 6y ago

Interesting thought. I think the weirdos today look a little different than the classic stereotype. Being a geek/nerd actually became cool. In the 90's, it really was only the weirdos who were into programming and computers. Coming out of the closet used to be very risky. Not just socially, but you opened yourself up to real physical danger. It took a lot of guts to be honest with yourself and openly be who you were. Now, being gay is fashionable. Look that the things that aren't considered cool to do/say/think today and you'll find the weirdos. I think they make our world richer.

ryanianian 6y ago
I wouldn't say "fashionable," more that it's not widely looked at with fear, disgust, and moral judgment. It's still hard to come out: the stakes are high, and it takes a long time for your loved-ones to re-adjust their view of the world and how you fit into it. But once that happens it's no longer an "identifying" trait for many, so it's no longer a "weird" thing.
charliesome 6y ago
From the rest of your comment I assume that you mean well, but I would encourage you to reconsider your statement that being gay is fashionable, and reflect on why it might be offensive to some people.
- chrischattin 6y ago
  Maybe it has negative connotations for you. But, I think it was an appropriate use of the word as many aspects of LGBT culture have worked their way into popular culture and are now considered cool (regardless of one’s sexual preferences).
  - tygrak 6y ago
    Don't forget a certain F word is still used as an insult in English. And don't forget there are places in the world, where being openly gay is definitely not accepted (like Russia). Or even parts of the world, where it will definitely get you killed.

ravenstine 6y ago

I see this phenomenon as similar to the noble lie, except that it's to avoid personal trouble as opposed to some other altruistic reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie I've told my share of personal noble lies because many people can't let go of irrational causes behind my actions. In order for them to easily accept my eccentricities, I have to provide a rationale, even though I'm well aware that many of the thing that I do are not motivated by reason but instead my unconscious. There's more minor reason that I tell personal noble lies, which is that if someone asks me why I do X thing, and I actually tell them the truth, said truth is usually ridiculously simple, in which case they think that I'm blowing them off. In these cases, it's better for interpersonal relations for me to have either a canned story , or make something up on the fly, that's more interesting than the real one. The first example that comes to mind is my father, whom is a great man in my eyes but, if we haven't talked in a while, he will ask me "What do you eat these days?" Depending on whether I'm trying to lose weight, I may have literally no rhyme or reason behind my eating habits. Often times, I couldn't tell you what it is that I tend to eat or have eaten. If I told my father "I don't know. I eat lots of things and don't think about it much.", I can tell that he interprets that as me trying to end the discussion. In that case, I don't necessarily make up a total lie, but I will try and remember the things I ate in the last few days and then speak like those are the things that I eat all the time, and I might even say something like "I eat the steak and eggs a lot because I'm trying to build some muscle." Another example has to do with my mode of dress. Anyone who knows me knows that I wear the exact same outfit 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I wear a black t-shirt that's well fitting, jeans, and dress shoes. This is a bit of a strange outfit to some, and the dress shoes are funny to most people. The real reason that I dress this way is that I don't want to waste time and brain power deciding what to wear and in what combination; I don't care what I look like so long as what I look like is acceptable and fits my self image. This is not a satisfactory answer to most people, in my experience, and I suspect it's because they simply don't relate. The average person doesn't see the value in removing unnecessary choice from their daily routine, and their choice to wear a particular garment may indeed be necessary to them. So what I tell them is that I like to wear black because it doesn't stain, and I wear the dress shoes because they happen to be very water resistant when I step through puddles.

criddell 6y ago

The last (and only) Steinbeck I read was Grapes of Wrath in high school and 17 year old me thought it was okay. Would Cannery Row be a good choice for somebody who wants to give Steinbeck another try?

zeckalpha 6y ago
Yes, I enjoyed it. It’s a short read, too.
circlefavshape 6y ago
Yes! Cannery Row is a glorious book
nabilhat 6y ago
I definitely recommend Cannery Row, it was fun and rowdy and not all that long but still as memorable to me as Grapes of Wrath even if vastly different.
mjd 6y ago
I'd say yes. It's not that long, and it's not so much a single story as a series of related episodes. Also, I think it shows Steinbeck at his best and at his worst at the same time. He really wants to hit you over the head with the dogged bravery with which people pursue even their hopeless lives. When it works, it works, and when he tries too hard, it's bathetic.

Rerarom 6y ago

I had a professor who drank (presumably water) from a vodka bottle during an exam to mess with us.

motohagiography 6y ago

The same is true now. People can be unforgiving if you challenge or change their world views, because while interesting, you have deprived them of psychological safety and the infallibility of their senses and beliefs. Worse, you may have infected them and exposed them to your weirdo social exile. What has changed is normal world views encompass more variation as a result of things like communications tech, seeing earth from the moon and space, adapting to urbanization and globalization, but there are still edges, and some very hard boundaries. I used to be a weirdo, now I'm more of an intellectual traveller. Definitely from somewhere, just not here.

LandR 6y ago

I think it depends what you mean by weirdo. It's much easier to have odd interests nowadays and wierd hobbies because you can counter it by dressing well, good personal grooming and being in shape. People are very accomodating of peculiar people nowadays as long as your are aesthetically pleasing to look at. I don't know if that's forward progress or it's just shifted sideways.

phendrenad2 6y ago
Sounds like you're describing the Halo Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

5cott0 6y ago

I did it to protect my good reputation in case anyone ever caught me walking around with crab apples in my cheeks. With rubber balls in my hands I could deny there were crab apples in my cheeks. Everytime someone asked me why I was walking around with crab apples in my cheeks, I'd just open my hands and show them it was rubber balls I was walking around with, not crab apples, and that they were in my hands, not my cheeks. It was a good story, but I never knew if it got across or not, since its pretty hard to make people understand you when your talking to them with two crab apples in your cheeks. - Catch 22

basicplus2 6y ago
"When I was a kid, I used to walk around all day with crab apples in my cheeks. One in each cheek." ... A minute passed. "Why?" [Yossarian] found himself forced to ask finally. Orr tittered triumphantly. "Because they're better than horse chestnuts... When I couldn't get crab apples," Orr continued, "I used horse chestnuts. Horse chestnuts are about the same size as crab apples and actually have a better shape, although the shape doesn't matter a bit." "Why did you walk around with crab apples in your cheeks?" Yossarian asked again. "That's what I asked." "Because they've got a better shape than horse chestnuts," Orr answered. "I just told you that." "Why," swore Yossarian at him approvingly, "you evil-eyed, mechanically aptituded, disaffiliated son of a bitch, did you walk around with anything in your cheeks?" "I didn't," Orr said, "walk around with anything in my cheeks. I walked around with crab applies in my cheeks. When I couldn't get crab apples I walked around with horse chestnuts. In my cheeks.

photonemitter 6y ago

I just remembered reading something years back about how “because” is a magical word. People are surprisingly more susceptible and accepting of any request if you add a “because X” where the reason can be almost entirely arbitrary. Examples included “can I cut in line, because I’m parked in a tow-away zone”, which resulted in something like 70% compliance vs 10-20% if the person didn’t proffer the added “because” Was also examples of ridiculous ones like “can I use the photocopier before you (to a person copying 2 pages), because I have to make 200 copies of this (significantly bigger paper)” Surprisingly this also got a higher rate of compliance even though the request did not make any sense per-se. TL;DR: Providing an explanation for any questionable request “closes” the narrative in a sense. The person now feels there is a justification for whatever made the situation weird to begin with, and therefore the situation no longer requires them to come up with justifications on their own. (Brains/minds being lazy and whatnot)

andygcook 6y ago
The study this references was mentioned in the book Influence by Robert Cialdini. IIRC, even using the word because with a circular objective results in higher compliance. For example, “Excuse me. Can I use the xerox machine because I have to make copies?” resulted in 90%+ compliance rate vs. a ~50% rate with just “Excuse me. Can I use the xerox machine?” My memory is probably slightly with the exact percentages, but I always found that study fascinating.

stared 6y ago

For another example: "Winnie the Pooh". Every character seems to be affected by a disorder (vide https://fantheories.fandom.com/wiki/Winnie_the_Pooh https://fantheories.fandom.com/wiki/Winnie_the_Pooh), but it is fine. They accept each other as they are.

battery423 6y ago

Imagine a world where everyone only enforces laws onto others when it actually affects themself. Like human shit who is littering.

officemonkey 6y ago

Mezz Mezzrow was a Jewish C-list Jazz clarinetist from Chicago that was active during the depression. He was also a successful marijuana dealer to the Jazz community. He married a black woman, moved to Harlem, and called himself a "voluntary Negro." When he was arrested at the Worlds Fair (60 marijuana cigarettes with intent to distribute) he convinced the cops he was black and thus was housed with black prisoners. He was good friends with Louis Armstrong and has such a cult status among Jazz fans that there's a NYC Jazz Club named in his honor. As Dylan wrote "To live outside the law, you must be honest." Especially so when conformity was life-threatening.

selimthegrim 6y ago
So the claim is he actually released some OK stuff at the end. How true is that?
- officemonkey 6y ago
  Trad clarinet isn't terribly difficult compared to post-bebop jazz. Pee Wee Russell and Benny Goodman were probably the best at it in the 60s. I don't think I have any post-1930s Mezzrow recordings to make an assessment.

at_a_remove 6y ago

Personally, I believe that there is a Conservation of Weirdness going on. Certain things are outside of the statistical norm (or mode, or whatever terminology you choose), with varying degrees of acceptability. What is acceptable now might not have been acceptable then, but something else will have become unacceptable in its place. The current acceptability is a factor in determining how many Weirdo Points you accumulate for your various abnormalities.

technothrasher 6y ago

> Doc has a whim to try drinking a beer milkshake Yeah, I had that same whim one time back about twenty five years ago... Let's just say that the idea of a beer milkshake is much better than the reality.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

RookyNumbas 6y ago

Doc may have been a weirdo, but he was also the most popular and liked person in the entire town. The plot revolves around people trying to throw parties for him because they think he's so great. Today, no matter your weirdness, it's likely been productized and advertised to the masses in some way.

galoisgirl 6y ago

It's still hard to challenge stereotypes. You're not white, where are you from? Michigan? But where are you really from? You've lost weight, how did you do it? Eat less? No, you must have found some magical shortcut, you just don't want to reveal your secret.

adamc 6y ago

The envelope is a little bigger, but it's still hard. Try working with facial tattoos, or (if you are male), wearing anklets to work. Or being polyamorous in a lot of contexts. I could go on... At enormous costs, gay people and others have widened certain channels a little, but the mindset of conformity still drives us -- so thoroughly that it was even hard to think of examples, a second ago. We are socialized in childhood, and later from our teenage peers, not to step outside the norms for our communities. We fear to be different, and we fear the different, and it isn't even clear why. Why should I care if someone else is walking around naked? Why should I care if my coworker has tattoos? Or a thousand other things.

overgard 6y ago
I agree people shouldn't judge, and I'm not defending it, but I think the fear they have is this: if you look like a certain "type", there's a decent chance your behaviour is predictable, and thus, safe (or at least manageable). But if you're just completely different people have no model to predict how you'll act. When people are confronted with that, some people react with hostility, some with avoidance, some by freezing up -- and some rare souls who have the confidence to have an open mind.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  "And Then There Were None", SF by Eric Frank Russell, purposely characterises the natives as not fitting into "types" and thereby creeping out the Terrans who have come to explore (and exploit?) their planet...

cafard 6y ago

Of course the option is open to those in power also. Doesn't Boris Johnson's disheveled hair signify to all that he isn't to be relied on for accuracy, truth, or judgment?

henearkr 6y ago

I can't even begin to tell how hard it is to be weirdo (e.g. vegan, teetotaller) even nowadays in some (although very much developped) societies like Japan. I am both (vegan & teetotaller), working in Japan, and a substantial part of my coworkers were mad at me. Another coworker is vegetarian because of some health condition, and nobody bothers him.

Taylor_OD 6y ago
Being a teetotaller is incredibly difficult in many parts of the world. I realized later after I started drinking for the first time in my life that many people feel that teetotallers are judging them for drinking even if that is not the case.

ldd 6y ago

> “Lee. Got more name. Lee papa family name. Call Lee.” “I’ve read quite a lot about China. You born in China?” “No. Born here.” Samuel was silent for quite a long time while the buggy lurched down the wheel track toward the dusty valley. ““Lee,” he said at last, “I mean no disrespect, but I’ve never been able to figure why you people still talk pidgin when an illiterate baboon from the black bogs of Ireland, with a head full of Gaelic and a tongue like a potato, learns to talk a poor grade of English in ten years.” Lee grinned. “Me talkee Chinese talk,” he said. “Well, I guess you have your reasons. And it’s not my affair. I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe it, Lee.” Lee looked at him and the brown eyes under their rounded upper lids seemed to open and deepen until they weren’t foreign any more, but man’s eyes, warm with understanding. Lee chuckled. “It’s more than a convenience,” he said. “It’s even more than self-protection. Mostly we have to use it to be understood at all.” Samuel showed no sign of having observed any change. “I can understand the first two,” he said thoughtfully, “but the third escapes me.” Lee said, “I know it’s hard to believe, but it has happened so often to me and to my friends that we take if for granted. If I should go up to a lady or a gentleman, for instance, and speak as I am doing now, I wouldn’t be understood.” “Why not?” “Pidgin they expect, and pidgin they’ll listen to. But English from me they don’t listen to, and so they don’t understand it.” “Can that be possible? How do I understand you?” “That’s why I’m talking to you. You are one of the rare people who can separate your observation from your preconception. You see what is, where most people see what they expect.” - East of Eden, John Steinbeck

war1025 6y ago
East of Eden is a great book. Highly recommend it, and really any of Steinbeck's works. Surprisingly relatable, even with how much times have changed since they were written.

chias 6y ago

> I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. Jane doesn't have children, and people are always asking her why she doesn't have children. Jane learned a long time ago that it makes people angry and suspicious if she tells the truth, which is that she doesn't have children because she doesn't want children. So she's in the habit of explaining that she can't have children as a result of a medically necessary hysterectomy. Then people are okay with it and even sympathetic. (There was no hysterectomy.) Some things don't change all that much.

SeanFerree 6y ago

Great read!!

bitwize 6y ago

> Mr. Raymond explains he is not actually a drunk, he only pretends to be one so that the ⸢respectable⸣ people will write him off, stay off his back about his black spouse and kids, and leave him alone. If they think it's because he's an alcoholic they can fit it into their worldview and let it go, which they wouldn't do if they suspected the truth, which is that it's his choice. Rick: Y'see, Morty? It's just like I always said: there's an upside to being a drunk. It means people leave you alone, and they won't bother you with their stupid opinions on whatever it is you're doing that they know nothing about. Morty: Uh, gee, Rick, I don't think that justifies annihilating universe G-435 on a bender... Rick: Shut up Morty. That was a calculated risk. Pburpeople who don't take risks are like Galvani's frog legs: twitching, but not really alive.

stcredzero 6y ago

I think it must be a lot easier to be a weird misfit now than it was in 1935. In Columbia, SC in the 1990's, all of us misfits hung out with each other. We had wildly diverse world views. We even had heated arguments with each other at times. However, we were all vaguely united in our being non-mainstream. If there were cliques, they could have their own gatherings without any outsiders, but we also shared lots of spaces. The only people ever ostracized were the Nazi Punks. However, the World Music folks, eastern religion/woo enthusiasts, Old Timey music people, Rude Boys/Rude Girls, metalheads, punks (of several varieties), alternative music crowd, Harley motorbike enthusiasts, some of the Baptist street preachers/missionaries, neo-hippies, actual hippies, etc...we all hung out at the same cafes and music venues. In the 21st century Bay Area, I find a lot more cliquishness of a particular aggressive, conformist kind. There can be this kind of quizzing/seeking for what you "really think," which might well be followed by judgments based on shallow outward signifiers and even outright verbal aggression. In years past, I never experienced something like that, outside of certain of the most intolerant religious/homophobic/ethnic zealots, usually sparked off by my appearance and/or ethnicity. Subdivisions In the high school halls In the shopping malls Conform or be cast out Subdivisions In the basement bars In the backs of cars Be cool or be cast out

diffrinse 6y ago

American society in particular is ultra-legalistic but supplements the bareness of context with unwritten rules, some communicated in code, in implicit ideations (the ongoing looting in major cities are referred to as "violent"), some through passive observation or mimesis (like learning how to stare at African-Americans from one's avowed liberal parents).

agumonkey 6y ago

I get seriously torn about resorting to trickstery to live in society. I'd rather live in the woods than faking human relationships, but society seems to force that upon us too often.