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I have a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga that claims to be certified by both Lenovo and Canonical for Ubuntu. Finger print sensor doesn't work, the fans are super loud al

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga that claims to be certified by both Lenovo and Canonical for Ubuntu. Finger print sensor doesn't work, the fans are super loud all the time, audio doesn't work (requires a newer Linux kernel than the one shipped in the latest Ubuntu), EFI problems, sleep, hibernate, fast-boot, restore from hibernate problems, battery life on Linux is horrible... So at least the certification for Ubuntu is completely worthless. Reading the first comments in the Ubuntu forums from a year ago and the evolution of the Arch Wiki for my laptop, I have a hard time believing that somebody actually tested it before releasing the laptop. At best, somebody looked at the spec sheet and said "we have supported similar hardware before, this is good to go". 1 year later, the laptop is almost in a barely usable state. Canonical broke Audio support (soundcard not detected anymore) with 19.04 and did not fixed it before 20.04, essentially telling users to wait till the next Ubuntu release due to in 6 months. The only officially supported version is a 4 year old custom 16.04 that I never got the chance of trying, but this should tell you a lot about "long term" support of Canonical and Lenovo for these machines. The only ones that should be getting any praise are the dozens of volunteers that have been screwed by both Lenovo and Canonical into buying one of these and have made their work and support time available to others for free. If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. EDIT: link to certification: https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201906-27127 https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201906-27127 what a worthless bag of bytes.

lallysingh 6y ago
I have an older X1 yoga. I haven't tried to make the fingerprint sensor work, but the rest works quite well. Especially after I updated the firmware with fwupd. It's not my first Thinkpad running Linux, and the prior two ran quite well.
- fluffything 6y ago
  I run Arch Linux on mine, with the latest kernel, and custom tools (think fan), and some things disabled (fast boot), and it becomes "usable". That's ok for any Laptop that isn't advertised as "Ubuntu certified". But I literally had to uninstall Ubuntu and install Arch to get audio and microphone back to work after the 19.04 update broke it, and some dev mentioning on the bug report that the fix wouldn't land on 20.04 which it didn't. Imagine Microsoft or Apple telling their users that they have to live without a soundcard for 6 months during COVID-19 because "tough luck". Well that's pretty much how Canonical and Lenovo treat their customers.
  - darkwater 6y ago
    "btw, I run Arch" /s To add some more useful (anecdotal) data, I have a Thinkpad T15 with Ubuntu 20.04 and everything works smoothly (even secure boot) EXCEPT the fingerprints reader, although TBH I still haven't tried after updating to 20.04. So in my opinion Lenovo support for Ubuntu is really good.
    - fluffything 6y ago
      If this were about somebody getting a 2k$ macbook whose fingerprint reader doesn't work, everyone would be outraged. But since I paid 2k$ for a Lenovo Ubuntu laptop, I'm the one that's wrong for expecting the fingerprint reader to actually work.
      - darkwater 6y ago
        You can have a more than decent Lenovo laptop for half that price (T490) and TBH fingerprint reader is a nice gimmick but it's not something I care when I choose a laptop.
  - ornornor 6y ago
    That’s probably not what people want to hear but I learned over the years that it’s best to stay one LTS version behind on Ubuntu. I’m running 18.04 and won’t upgrade to 20.04 until next year because Ubuntu always has bugs 6–9 months after release. Also, MS and Apple charge for their software. Linux OS are free. That doesn’t absolve Lenovo from selling “certified” laptops that aren’t compatible though. I also find that sticking to older enterprise Thinkpads (X, T, W) and staying away from the toys posing as thinkpads tremendously helps avoid headaches with Linux. Shame on Lenovo for mucking the waters and using the name for enterprise and consumer machines. And older enterprise class thinkpads are dirt cheap on top of being easily fixable and upgradable for peanuts because every IT department is on a 3 years lease cycle.
    - fluffything 6y ago
      > Also, MS and Apple charge for their software. Linux OS are free. I paid ~2k$ for a Lenovo Laptop certified for Ubuntu. I don't really see the difference between doing that and paying 2k$ for an Apple laptop that's certified for MacOS (which i've upgraded for 8 years for free), or some other laptop certified for windows. Except for the obvious difference that the Lenovo Laptop does not work with Ubuntu as promised.
- jandrese 6y ago
  Most fingerprint sensors I've run into on laptops use the Broadcom Security Processor, which Broadcom has emphatically stated they will never support Linux for. Just a straight up no on the driver front, and the thing is purposely designed to be a black box so reverse engineering is a huge effort. For what its worth however they didn't work all that great in Windows either. The sensor was pretty picky about your thumb being absolutely dry and spotless and getting the swipe speed just right. I found it less convenient than just typing in a password. When I switched the laptops to Linux and discovered that the driver situation was hopeless I wasn't too broken up.
nabla9 6y ago
Did you use install first Ubuntu yourself and did you use standard images for first Ubuntu install?
dahfizz 6y ago
I have a new X1 Carbon 7th gen, and it was definitely a lot of work to get it set up. But after tinkering and some kernel updates (Fedora >> Ubuntu for new hardware) I couldn't be happier. Incredible performance, all day battery life, etc. I have a friend who got their finger print sensor working but I never bothered to try. I also have had great experience with fwup. I've gotten tons of bios, firmware, microcode etc updates from Lenovo and they all apply seamlessly. I think Linux support of new hardware is always going to be shaky unless we can get vendors to care and support it themselves. Otherwise, we have to wait and let the open source devs make drivers after the hardware is released.
- jhoechtl 6y ago
  I have a Lenovo Yoga 720-13ikb. Firmware updates are distributed as Windows Executables only. It's the first time that I have heard of fwup. Will fwup help me to install Firmware (Bios/UEFI) Updates? It's the only reason I have not yet wiped Windows. All hardware worked except the fingerprint reader I do not care for anyway.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    I do not know about your specific machine, but Lenovo is pretty good about supporting fwupd, so its worth a try. Install fwupd for your distro and run `fwupdmgr get-devices` to see what on your machine is supported. When I run that, I see System Firmware, thunderbolt controller, UEFI firmware, touchpad, etc etc listed.
  - 4cao 6y ago
    You should be able to extract the BIOS update .fd file with InnoExtract [1] or InnoUnp [2], and then use the BIOS vendor's flashing tools, which are usually available for a number of other platforms, including Linux. If this laptop has Insyde BIOS, the relevant utility is called "H2OFFT-L" (Insyde H2O Firmware Flash Tool - Linux). In the worst case, you might have to run a tool from DOS. 1. https://constexpr.org/innoextract/ https://constexpr.org/innoextract/ 2. http://innounp.sourceforge.net/ http://innounp.sourceforge.net/
  - fluffything 6y ago
thisgoodlife 6y ago
Interesting. Fingerprint sensor works perfectly on my T450s + Ubuntu 20.04.
- Delk 6y ago
  Things tend to work better with slightly older hardware. The compatibility issues have already surfaced and there's been time to fix them. There's been plenty of time to get things working since the T450s was released.
stevewodil 6y ago
In the certification it states testing was done on kernel version 5.0.0-1015-oem-osp1. Are you using that kernel version? If not, use Ukuu or some other method and install it
- Delk 6y ago
  To be fair, if hardware really only worked with a specific version of the Linux kernel, that wouldn't exactly scream quality either. You'd be stuck without being able to update for security or for any new hardware support. As a troubleshooting step, trying with the specific kernel version that was used for the certification might of course work.
  - stevewodil 6y ago
    I agree, I moreso meant if they are on kernel 4.x or possibly an earlier version of 5.x then that could be why it's not working well
    - fluffything 6y ago
      They actually managed to upstream support on kernel 5.1, but break it on kernel 5.2, and IIRC only kernel >5.5 has the fix, which ubuntu still doesn't have support for. I expect Canonical or Lenovo or both to test all release candidates of all kernel versions after release and make sure that the hardware actually works, and if it doesn't, prevent the release of a broken Linux kernel version. That would be the minimum level of QA acceptable for a "certified" laptop.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    It seems super weird that "certification" means "works to our spec with $distros at the time of release" instead of "we have an arrangement with $company that will ensure that $distro will always be fully supported."
  - jandrese 6y ago
    It usually means they hacked in some hardware support for that one particular kernel but didn't upstream it. This is how hardware companies seem to prefer to operate. Release a product (including the drivers) and then forget about it. Maintenance is a drag and getting patches accepted upstream is too much work, plus they might come back to you and ask you to fix stuff in your code later, which isn't in the budget. Windows bends over backwards to try to support old code. If you have something with Vista drivers there's a decent chance you can get it working in Windows 10, unless they were 32 bit only drivers. Even if you supply the source code (gasp shock! Unheard of!) you still end up chasing Kernel ABI changes from time to time. For an example, I have an old Canon LiDE 35 scanner that I use from time to time. On Linux it just works as part of the huge SANE bundle. On Windows all I have are ancient 32 bit drivers that don't work on Windows 10, but if you download the Windows 7 x64 drivers for the LiDE 60 and hack some strings you can get it to work. A complete reversal in the amount of technical wizardry necessary to get it working over the course of about 10 years.
arkj 6y ago
>>If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. Isn't this a bit too harsh on them? We've had good experiences on T and L series. I am using L470 with fedora 27 for the last 2 years and I have not had any issues so far. I have gone till 78 days without a shutdown. It's been more stable than windows on suspend to ram cycles. I did have issues with fonts out of the box but fixing was easy. One of the advantages of using Linux is it forces you to fix the broken parts and personally it has been a very rewarding experience.
- corty 6y ago
  I've had mixed experiences in this regard. Thinkpads from the T and X series (don't know about Yoga, P or L) are really great, usually work out of the box and if there is broken hardware you are visited tomorrow by a nice guy from IBM (yes, really!) who fixes things without complaining about the weird OS you are running (of course you should be able to test that the new component works somehow). Non-Thinkpad laptops from Lenovo are worse at running with Linux and the hardware support seems to be far worse, send it in, wait a few weeks, no solution. Note that other vendors are very similar: there is a big difference between the "for professional business use" and "for home use" lines, in prices as well as support for software and support if broken.
  - marcoperaza 6y ago
    You have a pay a premium for that next-day, on-site warranty. But it's worth it.
  - fluffything 6y ago
    > by a nice guy from IBM (yes, really!) Why IBM? IBM sold Lenovo to China years ago, does IBM still handle support for Lenovo in your country?
    - corty 6y ago
      Here in Germany, they seem to. Don't know if this has changed recently, but for the last personal visit 2 years ago, it was an IBM guy.
mark_l_watson 6y ago
Perhaps the Yoga isn't as popular as other Lenovo models for running Linux. Still, the situation you describe sounds bad. I bought a Linux laptop from System76 almost to years ago, and it have been a painless experience. They even manage CUDA updates fairly much hassle free. Anyway, I was tired of 25 years of futzing around with configuring Linux, so I decided on an easier path.
corty 6y ago
Generally, certification is useless except for "compliance" and "get support for something". If you are running a supported combination of hardware and software, the hardware vendor can't officially close your case just because "you are running unsupported software and we are sure your OpenBSD damaged your mouse" or similar BS. However, as long as there is a hardware problem you are able to clearly identify, support is usually not a problem even with non-certified software with most (but not all) vendors. Problems that might be either hardware or software are always a problem, because you are almost always dealing with 2 vendors blaming each other. The certification leads to a slightly lower overhead for convincing the support to take the case and a slightly higher number of solved cases. But nothing dramatic. And also take care that the supported software is usually a specially adapted version of something, e.g. the exact installation of Windows your laptop came with. If you reinstall your companies default Windows image you are out of luck. If you upgrade to another service pack or major version, you are out of luck. Also "certfied" is necessary for stuff like "our processes for adding numbers are certified ISO12345 and demand supported hard- and software". There is no real benefit besides complying with some obscure checklist some useless PHB came up with. But in some industries, you cannot do business without that, no matter how pointless, expensive, unsafe, insecure or counterproductive it might be. In sum "certified" means "the bureaucracy won't be able to complain", not "it works".
- fluffything 6y ago
  I've only used Apple laptops for the past 15 years. So when I buy a Laptop for OS Z, I actually expect Z to work. Maybe its my fault for having unreasonable expectations. No idea what the story is on Windows.
  - corty 6y ago
    Even with macs running OSX there were OS and driver problems with overheating, downclocking, batteries, keyboard missing keypresses, keyboard going missing on reboot, touchbar disfunction and problems with the touchpad like broken palm rejection. And thats just stuff from a few weeks of reading HN comments...
waheoo 6y ago
And ive got three thinkpads that all run arch and dont have any of the issues you have mentioned. My macs have far more problems. Dont even get me started on my windows machines.
momokoko 6y ago
I’m curious which one you have as I’ve been a happy yoga user for many years(2 different models) and never has any issue with quality or Linux support. I am a long time Linux user so that may be the difference. The fact that you prefer Ubuntu is probably a bit telling about you experience and skill level with Linux on the desktop.
m463 6y ago
I can't help but wonder if this means they will add "linux support" to their install. People may have forgotten on the windows side they added software to the bios that would install itself even on a clean windows install https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Lenovo_Service_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Lenovo_Service_Engine hmm, "Customer Feedback Program" or "Lenovo Accelerator" look similar.
RMPR 6y ago
For new hardware Ubuntu isn't exactly the distribution I would recommend. You may have a better chance trying a distro like Fedora or Arch. Speaking from my personal experience I have a X1 Yoga 1st gen and installed then updated Fedora from 29 to 31 it's a pretty much hassle-free process (apart from the fingerprint, which never worked in the first place and I don't use it anyway), I postpone the update from 31 to 32 mainly because I have some serious work ongoing, but I'm sure it will be smooth. You already shared you thought about "certifications", but I think the fact that Lenovo is starting Fedora Laptops[0] is telling in this regard. 0: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/05/08/lenovo-has-2-awesome-surprises-for-linux-thinkpad-customers-in-2020/#5e880a47399d https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/05/08/lenov...
- Lendal 6y ago
  This is my experience. I don't get the fascination with Ubuntu. Whenever I hear about something that doesn't work it's always Ubuntu. That could be confirmation bias though. From my perspective it's old & busted vs Fedora's hot & sexy, using more up to date software revs everywhere you look. It's low maintenance (unlike Manjaro/Arch) yet still fresh. You have a choice of desktops, or no desktop at all. There is Fedora Server available. Everything feels more modern and advanced. There is clearly a huge amount of work put into producing Fedora yet it has less users. I don't get the Ubuntu craze. Is it just peer pressure? Am I antisocial if I prefer Fedora to Ubuntu? What am I missing here?
  - valarauko 6y ago
    In my domain (bioinformatics), if it's self managed, Ubuntu is the standard. I would attribute much of the popularity to the Biolinux project, which built upon Ubuntu LTS and bundled in many popular bioinformatics packages which are a pain to setup and configure on your own. Besides these, many popular packages provide deb bundles, which makes it easy for a PhD student to manage on their own.
  - tetraca 6y ago
    I never got it either, outside of possibly just the momentum of having a relatively easy to install Linux distribution early on. Rather than Fedora, though, I opted to run Debian sid. I get all the up to date fresh-from-the-oven software packages I care about, can pilfer from external Ubuntu apt repos if I need to, without having to clear out any of the garish brown and sponsored Ubuntu junk, and it's fairly easy to install and maintain. Despite being the permanently unstable branch, it's never really meaningfully broken on me.
linuxhansl 6y ago
> If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. I had the exact opposite experience. Perhaps it's a Unbuntu thing, hard to know, I use Fedora, or perhaps it's the Yoga... In 2004 I got a T42, installed Fedora on it, it just worked. In 2013 I got a T440p, installed Fedora, just worked. That Laptop is still in use, btw. This year I got a X1 Extreme Gen2 (stupid name), installed the Fedora KDE spin, just works. Sleep, etc, works, battery is life is really, the graphics card (internal and dedicated with the Nvidia drivers) work, etc, etc. So I am truly surprised by your experience. I did a lot of research before, and these are the best Linux laptops that I could find (besides the "open" laptops like System76, etc). The again, I am an engineer, so perhaps what I do in terms of setup comes easy to me without me noticing the complexity.
- yolomcsuperswag 6y ago
  "X1 Extreme Gen2 (...) just works" Literally? I can't even beat the installer because of the GPU. (Vanilla Fedora)
  - linuxhansl 6y ago
    Huh? I really did not do anything special (after it was installed I installed the NVidia drivers from RPMFusion, but that was after the base install was done). Perhaps you need to enable hybrid graphics in the BIOS.
    - yolomcsuperswag 6y ago
      I've tried both with and without :/ Oh, well.
- pbrb 6y ago
  I'm with you. I have a 2017 X1 Carbon, and I've had zero issues with Ubuntu. The only thing I had to do was update a few config settings to properly sleep, and I run kde desktop so I don't have to fiddle with scaling on laptop monitor vs. my external displays. It's been an excellent laptop.
fovc 6y ago
I've had a couple of X1s and T series throughout the years, and ran Ubuntu and Arch wonderfully. Save for the fingerprint sensor (where I think the issue is not drivers but rather that fingerprints don't have enough entropy for a keyring), they actually ran way better than my current Windows X1 which BSODs every 3 days. I think the yoga subbrand is a lower end model, so maybe they're sloppier there?
FunnyLookinHat 6y ago
Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience... I've had great success with the T430, T480p and X1 Extreme.
uoaei 6y ago
I don't think an anecdotal experience with the Yoga line is compatible with the claim that "if you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague." I've had great experiences with my Thinkpads (t410s and t530) running Linux. Granted, I was just running Ubuntu, but I never had an issue. I will note that I disabled the fingerprint sensor, camera, and microphone at the BIOS level so didn't have experience dealing with those drivers. I expect most others will have a fine experience with the non-touchscreen Thinkpads, and probably some of the newer models as well.

lallysingh 6y ago

I have an older X1 yoga. I haven't tried to make the fingerprint sensor work, but the rest works quite well. Especially after I updated the firmware with fwupd. It's not my first Thinkpad running Linux, and the prior two ran quite well.

fluffything 6y ago
I run Arch Linux on mine, with the latest kernel, and custom tools (think fan), and some things disabled (fast boot), and it becomes "usable". That's ok for any Laptop that isn't advertised as "Ubuntu certified". But I literally had to uninstall Ubuntu and install Arch to get audio and microphone back to work after the 19.04 update broke it, and some dev mentioning on the bug report that the fix wouldn't land on 20.04 which it didn't. Imagine Microsoft or Apple telling their users that they have to live without a soundcard for 6 months during COVID-19 because "tough luck". Well that's pretty much how Canonical and Lenovo treat their customers.
- darkwater 6y ago
  "btw, I run Arch" /s To add some more useful (anecdotal) data, I have a Thinkpad T15 with Ubuntu 20.04 and everything works smoothly (even secure boot) EXCEPT the fingerprints reader, although TBH I still haven't tried after updating to 20.04. So in my opinion Lenovo support for Ubuntu is really good.
  - fluffything 6y ago
    If this were about somebody getting a 2k$ macbook whose fingerprint reader doesn't work, everyone would be outraged. But since I paid 2k$ for a Lenovo Ubuntu laptop, I'm the one that's wrong for expecting the fingerprint reader to actually work.
    - darkwater 6y ago
      You can have a more than decent Lenovo laptop for half that price (T490) and TBH fingerprint reader is a nice gimmick but it's not something I care when I choose a laptop.
- ornornor 6y ago
  That’s probably not what people want to hear but I learned over the years that it’s best to stay one LTS version behind on Ubuntu. I’m running 18.04 and won’t upgrade to 20.04 until next year because Ubuntu always has bugs 6–9 months after release. Also, MS and Apple charge for their software. Linux OS are free. That doesn’t absolve Lenovo from selling “certified” laptops that aren’t compatible though. I also find that sticking to older enterprise Thinkpads (X, T, W) and staying away from the toys posing as thinkpads tremendously helps avoid headaches with Linux. Shame on Lenovo for mucking the waters and using the name for enterprise and consumer machines. And older enterprise class thinkpads are dirt cheap on top of being easily fixable and upgradable for peanuts because every IT department is on a 3 years lease cycle.
  - fluffything 6y ago
    > Also, MS and Apple charge for their software. Linux OS are free. I paid ~2k$ for a Lenovo Laptop certified for Ubuntu. I don't really see the difference between doing that and paying 2k$ for an Apple laptop that's certified for MacOS (which i've upgraded for 8 years for free), or some other laptop certified for windows. Except for the obvious difference that the Lenovo Laptop does not work with Ubuntu as promised.
jandrese 6y ago
Most fingerprint sensors I've run into on laptops use the Broadcom Security Processor, which Broadcom has emphatically stated they will never support Linux for. Just a straight up no on the driver front, and the thing is purposely designed to be a black box so reverse engineering is a huge effort. For what its worth however they didn't work all that great in Windows either. The sensor was pretty picky about your thumb being absolutely dry and spotless and getting the swipe speed just right. I found it less convenient than just typing in a password. When I switched the laptops to Linux and discovered that the driver situation was hopeless I wasn't too broken up.

nabla9 6y ago

Did you use install first Ubuntu yourself and did you use standard images for first Ubuntu install?

dahfizz 6y ago

I have a new X1 Carbon 7th gen, and it was definitely a lot of work to get it set up. But after tinkering and some kernel updates (Fedora >> Ubuntu for new hardware) I couldn't be happier. Incredible performance, all day battery life, etc. I have a friend who got their finger print sensor working but I never bothered to try. I also have had great experience with fwup. I've gotten tons of bios, firmware, microcode etc updates from Lenovo and they all apply seamlessly. I think Linux support of new hardware is always going to be shaky unless we can get vendors to care and support it themselves. Otherwise, we have to wait and let the open source devs make drivers after the hardware is released.

jhoechtl 6y ago
I have a Lenovo Yoga 720-13ikb. Firmware updates are distributed as Windows Executables only. It's the first time that I have heard of fwup. Will fwup help me to install Firmware (Bios/UEFI) Updates? It's the only reason I have not yet wiped Windows. All hardware worked except the fingerprint reader I do not care for anyway.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  I do not know about your specific machine, but Lenovo is pretty good about supporting fwupd, so its worth a try. Install fwupd for your distro and run `fwupdmgr get-devices` to see what on your machine is supported. When I run that, I see System Firmware, thunderbolt controller, UEFI firmware, touchpad, etc etc listed.
- 4cao 6y ago
  You should be able to extract the BIOS update .fd file with InnoExtract [1] or InnoUnp [2], and then use the BIOS vendor's flashing tools, which are usually available for a number of other platforms, including Linux. If this laptop has Insyde BIOS, the relevant utility is called "H2OFFT-L" (Insyde H2O Firmware Flash Tool - Linux). In the worst case, you might have to run a tool from DOS. 1. https://constexpr.org/innoextract/ https://constexpr.org/innoextract/ 2. http://innounp.sourceforge.net/ http://innounp.sourceforge.net/
- fluffything 6y ago

thisgoodlife 6y ago

Interesting. Fingerprint sensor works perfectly on my T450s + Ubuntu 20.04.

Delk 6y ago
Things tend to work better with slightly older hardware. The compatibility issues have already surfaced and there's been time to fix them. There's been plenty of time to get things working since the T450s was released.

stevewodil 6y ago

In the certification it states testing was done on kernel version 5.0.0-1015-oem-osp1. Are you using that kernel version? If not, use Ukuu or some other method and install it

Delk 6y ago
To be fair, if hardware really only worked with a specific version of the Linux kernel, that wouldn't exactly scream quality either. You'd be stuck without being able to update for security or for any new hardware support. As a troubleshooting step, trying with the specific kernel version that was used for the certification might of course work.
- stevewodil 6y ago
  I agree, I moreso meant if they are on kernel 4.x or possibly an earlier version of 5.x then that could be why it's not working well
  - fluffything 6y ago
    They actually managed to upstream support on kernel 5.1, but break it on kernel 5.2, and IIRC only kernel >5.5 has the fix, which ubuntu still doesn't have support for. I expect Canonical or Lenovo or both to test all release candidates of all kernel versions after release and make sure that the hardware actually works, and if it doesn't, prevent the release of a broken Linux kernel version. That would be the minimum level of QA acceptable for a "certified" laptop.
- Spivak 6y ago
  It seems super weird that "certification" means "works to our spec with $distros at the time of release" instead of "we have an arrangement with $company that will ensure that $distro will always be fully supported."
- jandrese 6y ago
  It usually means they hacked in some hardware support for that one particular kernel but didn't upstream it. This is how hardware companies seem to prefer to operate. Release a product (including the drivers) and then forget about it. Maintenance is a drag and getting patches accepted upstream is too much work, plus they might come back to you and ask you to fix stuff in your code later, which isn't in the budget. Windows bends over backwards to try to support old code. If you have something with Vista drivers there's a decent chance you can get it working in Windows 10, unless they were 32 bit only drivers. Even if you supply the source code (gasp shock! Unheard of!) you still end up chasing Kernel ABI changes from time to time. For an example, I have an old Canon LiDE 35 scanner that I use from time to time. On Linux it just works as part of the huge SANE bundle. On Windows all I have are ancient 32 bit drivers that don't work on Windows 10, but if you download the Windows 7 x64 drivers for the LiDE 60 and hack some strings you can get it to work. A complete reversal in the amount of technical wizardry necessary to get it working over the course of about 10 years.

arkj 6y ago

>>If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. Isn't this a bit too harsh on them? We've had good experiences on T and L series. I am using L470 with fedora 27 for the last 2 years and I have not had any issues so far. I have gone till 78 days without a shutdown. It's been more stable than windows on suspend to ram cycles. I did have issues with fonts out of the box but fixing was easy. One of the advantages of using Linux is it forces you to fix the broken parts and personally it has been a very rewarding experience.

corty 6y ago
I've had mixed experiences in this regard. Thinkpads from the T and X series (don't know about Yoga, P or L) are really great, usually work out of the box and if there is broken hardware you are visited tomorrow by a nice guy from IBM (yes, really!) who fixes things without complaining about the weird OS you are running (of course you should be able to test that the new component works somehow). Non-Thinkpad laptops from Lenovo are worse at running with Linux and the hardware support seems to be far worse, send it in, wait a few weeks, no solution. Note that other vendors are very similar: there is a big difference between the "for professional business use" and "for home use" lines, in prices as well as support for software and support if broken.
- marcoperaza 6y ago
  You have a pay a premium for that next-day, on-site warranty. But it's worth it.
- fluffything 6y ago
  > by a nice guy from IBM (yes, really!) Why IBM? IBM sold Lenovo to China years ago, does IBM still handle support for Lenovo in your country?
  - corty 6y ago
    Here in Germany, they seem to. Don't know if this has changed recently, but for the last personal visit 2 years ago, it was an IBM guy.

mark_l_watson 6y ago

Perhaps the Yoga isn't as popular as other Lenovo models for running Linux. Still, the situation you describe sounds bad. I bought a Linux laptop from System76 almost to years ago, and it have been a painless experience. They even manage CUDA updates fairly much hassle free. Anyway, I was tired of 25 years of futzing around with configuring Linux, so I decided on an easier path.

corty 6y ago

Generally, certification is useless except for "compliance" and "get support for something". If you are running a supported combination of hardware and software, the hardware vendor can't officially close your case just because "you are running unsupported software and we are sure your OpenBSD damaged your mouse" or similar BS. However, as long as there is a hardware problem you are able to clearly identify, support is usually not a problem even with non-certified software with most (but not all) vendors. Problems that might be either hardware or software are always a problem, because you are almost always dealing with 2 vendors blaming each other. The certification leads to a slightly lower overhead for convincing the support to take the case and a slightly higher number of solved cases. But nothing dramatic. And also take care that the supported software is usually a specially adapted version of something, e.g. the exact installation of Windows your laptop came with. If you reinstall your companies default Windows image you are out of luck. If you upgrade to another service pack or major version, you are out of luck. Also "certfied" is necessary for stuff like "our processes for adding numbers are certified ISO12345 and demand supported hard- and software". There is no real benefit besides complying with some obscure checklist some useless PHB came up with. But in some industries, you cannot do business without that, no matter how pointless, expensive, unsafe, insecure or counterproductive it might be. In sum "certified" means "the bureaucracy won't be able to complain", not "it works".

fluffything 6y ago
I've only used Apple laptops for the past 15 years. So when I buy a Laptop for OS Z, I actually expect Z to work. Maybe its my fault for having unreasonable expectations. No idea what the story is on Windows.
- corty 6y ago
  Even with macs running OSX there were OS and driver problems with overheating, downclocking, batteries, keyboard missing keypresses, keyboard going missing on reboot, touchbar disfunction and problems with the touchpad like broken palm rejection. And thats just stuff from a few weeks of reading HN comments...

waheoo 6y ago

And ive got three thinkpads that all run arch and dont have any of the issues you have mentioned. My macs have far more problems. Dont even get me started on my windows machines.

momokoko 6y ago

I’m curious which one you have as I’ve been a happy yoga user for many years(2 different models) and never has any issue with quality or Linux support. I am a long time Linux user so that may be the difference. The fact that you prefer Ubuntu is probably a bit telling about you experience and skill level with Linux on the desktop.

m463 6y ago

I can't help but wonder if this means they will add "linux support" to their install. People may have forgotten on the windows side they added software to the bios that would install itself even on a clean windows install https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Lenovo_Service_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Lenovo_Service_Engine hmm, "Customer Feedback Program" or "Lenovo Accelerator" look similar.

RMPR 6y ago

For new hardware Ubuntu isn't exactly the distribution I would recommend. You may have a better chance trying a distro like Fedora or Arch. Speaking from my personal experience I have a X1 Yoga 1st gen and installed then updated Fedora from 29 to 31 it's a pretty much hassle-free process (apart from the fingerprint, which never worked in the first place and I don't use it anyway), I postpone the update from 31 to 32 mainly because I have some serious work ongoing, but I'm sure it will be smooth. You already shared you thought about "certifications", but I think the fact that Lenovo is starting Fedora Laptops[0] is telling in this regard. 0: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/05/08/lenovo-has-2-awesome-surprises-for-linux-thinkpad-customers-in-2020/#5e880a47399d https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/05/08/lenov...

Lendal 6y ago
This is my experience. I don't get the fascination with Ubuntu. Whenever I hear about something that doesn't work it's always Ubuntu. That could be confirmation bias though. From my perspective it's old & busted vs Fedora's hot & sexy, using more up to date software revs everywhere you look. It's low maintenance (unlike Manjaro/Arch) yet still fresh. You have a choice of desktops, or no desktop at all. There is Fedora Server available. Everything feels more modern and advanced. There is clearly a huge amount of work put into producing Fedora yet it has less users. I don't get the Ubuntu craze. Is it just peer pressure? Am I antisocial if I prefer Fedora to Ubuntu? What am I missing here?
- valarauko 6y ago
  In my domain (bioinformatics), if it's self managed, Ubuntu is the standard. I would attribute much of the popularity to the Biolinux project, which built upon Ubuntu LTS and bundled in many popular bioinformatics packages which are a pain to setup and configure on your own. Besides these, many popular packages provide deb bundles, which makes it easy for a PhD student to manage on their own.
- tetraca 6y ago
  I never got it either, outside of possibly just the momentum of having a relatively easy to install Linux distribution early on. Rather than Fedora, though, I opted to run Debian sid. I get all the up to date fresh-from-the-oven software packages I care about, can pilfer from external Ubuntu apt repos if I need to, without having to clear out any of the garish brown and sponsored Ubuntu junk, and it's fairly easy to install and maintain. Despite being the permanently unstable branch, it's never really meaningfully broken on me.

linuxhansl 6y ago

> If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. I had the exact opposite experience. Perhaps it's a Unbuntu thing, hard to know, I use Fedora, or perhaps it's the Yoga... In 2004 I got a T42, installed Fedora on it, it just worked. In 2013 I got a T440p, installed Fedora, just worked. That Laptop is still in use, btw. This year I got a X1 Extreme Gen2 (stupid name), installed the Fedora KDE spin, just works. Sleep, etc, works, battery is life is really, the graphics card (internal and dedicated with the Nvidia drivers) work, etc, etc. So I am truly surprised by your experience. I did a lot of research before, and these are the best Linux laptops that I could find (besides the "open" laptops like System76, etc). The again, I am an engineer, so perhaps what I do in terms of setup comes easy to me without me noticing the complexity.

yolomcsuperswag 6y ago
"X1 Extreme Gen2 (...) just works" Literally? I can't even beat the installer because of the GPU. (Vanilla Fedora)
- linuxhansl 6y ago
  Huh? I really did not do anything special (after it was installed I installed the NVidia drivers from RPMFusion, but that was after the base install was done). Perhaps you need to enable hybrid graphics in the BIOS.
  - yolomcsuperswag 6y ago
    I've tried both with and without :/ Oh, well.
pbrb 6y ago
I'm with you. I have a 2017 X1 Carbon, and I've had zero issues with Ubuntu. The only thing I had to do was update a few config settings to properly sleep, and I run kde desktop so I don't have to fiddle with scaling on laptop monitor vs. my external displays. It's been an excellent laptop.

fovc 6y ago

I've had a couple of X1s and T series throughout the years, and ran Ubuntu and Arch wonderfully. Save for the fingerprint sensor (where I think the issue is not drivers but rather that fingerprints don't have enough entropy for a keyring), they actually ran way better than my current Windows X1 which BSODs every 3 days. I think the yoga subbrand is a lower end model, so maybe they're sloppier there?

FunnyLookinHat 6y ago

Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience... I've had great success with the T430, T480p and X1 Extreme.

uoaei 6y ago

I don't think an anecdotal experience with the Yoga line is compatible with the claim that "if you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague." I've had great experiences with my Thinkpads (t410s and t530) running Linux. Granted, I was just running Ubuntu, but I never had an issue. I will note that I disabled the fingerprint sensor, camera, and microphone at the BIOS level so didn't have experience dealing with those drivers. I expect most others will have a fine experience with the non-touchscreen Thinkpads, and probably some of the newer models as well.